Mhaldor vs Targossas

Proficy

Has anyone discovered how this "morale" works.

I feel this could be the Avenue in which to address in this war scheme to make it more open to other things than pk.

For example:
1. the well being of allied villages.
2. The health of God associated shrines
3. The state of needed locations in a city ( denizen run locations)
4. Font % status
5. Stock of city comms perhaps? ( something actually tangible)

Just ideas

Ashai

My thoughts so far:

War bounties are a great concept, but exhausting. I know I'm an oddity when it comes to being Mhaldorian and a Viceroy and more "non-com" than "com", but them's the facts (sorry I'm not a coder, and anyone who says that doesn't matter is full of it). As a leader I feel obligated both IC and OOC to be present and participatory in these things, and legit start feeling bad when I legitimately can't afford to give up several hours a day for non-stop fighting. It doesn't help that for the last 7 RL months I've been a Viceroy as Ash, I've gotten some serious shade for not being a combatant (most of which has simmered down thankfully). Having multiple war bounties taken out at once is a terrible feeling. Being the "easy target" for Targ to come gank for points by killing me? A worse feeling. I really dislike feeling as if I'm single-handedly costing Mhaldor just because I'm easy to kill and that is capitalized on, frequently.

Infamy has been touched on a million times, but I can go to one raid, with or without guard bashing, and wind up with 2-4 days of Infamy, even after dying or getting jumped (and subsequently dying several more times outside of the city/raid). It seems excessive. There has also been some question as to whether or not killing your own side lowers infamy. If so, that seems like some blatant abuse to me. If not, great.

War timeline 24 real-life days may be fine for people who don't mind fighting 24/7, or who do that already, but for those of us who don't... it's excessive. (I know @Makarios said timing was being looked into, thank you.) Being perpetually infamous and/or bountied, and/or logging into a fight constantly means there is no time to do anything else, for basically a RL month. It's not enjoyable. Those who are fighters can still go about their business as usual, because they're not as likely to get jumped. The times I've tried to go gathering/extracting/renown hunting/etc I've been religiously jumped. I've actually lost out on a ton of renown since this war started, which is a huge downside. When something starts regularly detracting from a currency others can get, it feels to be an imbalance. Maybe there should just be some automatic renown that goes to every individual who is part of a currently active at-war city, to make up for unavoidable loss no one else has to worry about. 24 days, if at the extreme someone gets zero renown, is a loss of 480 credits. That's quite significant.

Tl;dr
To fully function in active-war-Achaea feels like a full-time job. I'm a full-time student presently, during an already shortened summer semester, with a course load that has me drowning (for those who may be silently grumbling that I'm not present a lot, or am on my ship a lot, or whatever else that feels like avoidance when it simply isn't). I do everything I can to make Achaea an enjoyable place to be because it's meant to be my entertainment, and in all honesty I really like the War system in theory (even if practical application could use some work). What I don't like is spending 8+ hours a day working on studying and homework, only to come on and know I can literally do nothing that I enjoy in the game (bashing, RPing, working on writing up sermons or something engaging for my side, gathering, extracting, shopkeeping, etc) because I'm going to inevitably get stuck raiding/defending a considerable portion of the time, every single day, for 24 days.

I am in full agreement with thinking something unique being put in Nish would be excellent, as well as war-specific infamy or some such otherwise. I also think it'd be nice if war bounties didn't stack to the point that you can have several out on you at once. It just doesn't personally make sense to me to have it generate every single day if someone took one out on you and hasn't completed it yet. If I want to raid with my team, I feel like a huge liability if a war bounty (or two or more) are out on me. I think the auto-completion of bounties would also be a great offset to this, and give people who wouldn't/don't normally take bounties a chance to actually get them once in a while during a raid.

Reyson

That was a ballsy move, Targ. And you almost got us! Hats off to you for taking a risk like that. 

Lyndee

Ehh. Unpopular opinion from a city councilmember here...I actually don't mind the bounties. It is a lot to be being hunted all the time, and my stomach drops every time I see that message come through. And I find it irritating, as I find all combat to be. But, as I think about it, I'd kind of prefer the system to lean a little more heavily on them than away. When every citizen/newbie with a web tattoo is dealing with being hunted for their participation, it can really be a slog, and bounties seem like a good way for city leaders to suffer the preponderance of the consequences rather than their citizens.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather have 2 bounties a day on me and some changes to keep lowbies/midbies from getting their rears handed to them. ICly, it makes sense, as we're the ones who chose to go to war, and we got to have an opinion in it. The changes to infamy were a start, but I'm still seeing lots of folks on both sides who are at best tangentially involved get their gameplay messed up by being jumped, having contracts taken out, etc. 

To Ashai's point, though, city leaders have different habits right now/in general. I do think and hope that there is..something..happening on the back end w/r/t that difference and the bounties. I'm not sure if some of the council members' bounties (on both sides) have been fulfilled at all after a week or more of fighting, more due to inaccessibilty or limited time logged in than skill (no offence). I, meanwhile, merrily permit every bounty (plus bonus contracts!!11!) every day. War has made me far less precious about dying and I'm really taking to heart this idea of war points not being IC/not driving my character's behavior..but uh. It's a lot, so I hope in the end having council members being very active and therefore very vulnerable doesn't actually burn us. Or if that is the case, please tell me now, and I will find something to occupy myself for the next two weeks. xoxo

Ashai

I wouldn't say we had a say in the war. But y'know, Mhaldor. From an IC standpoint it's not like a city that touts Strength and advancement is going to back down from someone throwing down the gauntlet. And from a purely IC standpoint, Ashai has zero issue with the bounties and isn't really phased by deaths. The main IC frustration is being used as a target for easy War bounty collection, of which Targ has gotten plenty off her so far. She's filling a position that is part of leading the city of Evil, inclusive of all that entails both good and bad, while simultaneously recognizing a serious weakness within herself (bad at combat). Unfortunately it's not like I have the time to get good at combat right this second, because that takes an OOC time commitment I simply can't give right now. The RP aspect of it still stands though, which is great. "Good at many things. Combat is not one of them. Get better."

The "issue" with it, per se, comes down to the OOC burnout/exhaustion/frustration of wanting to have some time to do other things, and not being able to because of the expectations (re: the good and the bad that comes with being in a leadership position). 

On a varying note, I have seen Mhaldor come together a lot during this. I've seen a lot of people stepping up and giving combat tips and advice to those who don't make PK in Achaea their priority day in and day out. I've been really pleased with seeing "non-coms" get recognition for once, in a highly combative scenario where it's easy to just give recognition to who got the most awesome tank detonation ever! Or some similar circumstance. I think the War system has, despite bringing out some serious shades of ugly in people, also brought out a lot of awesome opportunities.

Plus, we're the guinea pigs of War. Going forward I imagine it will be a more finely tuned system and hopefully all the more enjoyable too.

Archaeon

Ashai said:

From an IC standpoint it's not like a city that touts Strength and advancement is going to back down from someone throwing down the gauntlet. 

You'd be surprised

Vhaynna

Ashai said:

I wouldn't say we had a say in the war. But y'know, Mhaldor. From an IC standpoint it's not like a city that touts Strength and advancement is going to back down from someone throwing down the gauntlet. And from a purely IC standpoint, Ashai has zero issue with the bounties and isn't really phased by deaths. The main IC frustration is being used as a target for easy War bounty collection, of which Targ has gotten plenty off her so far. She's filling a position that is part of leading the city of Evil, inclusive of all that entails both good and bad, while simultaneously recognizing a serious weakness within herself (bad at combat). Unfortunately it's not like I have the time to get good at combat right this second, because that takes an OOC time commitment I simply can't give right now. The RP aspect of it still stands though, which is great. "Good at many things. Combat is not one of them. Get better."

The "issue" with it, per se, comes down to the OOC burnout/exhaustion/frustration of wanting to have some time to do other things, and not being able to because of the expectations (re: the good and the bad that comes with being in a leadership position). 

On a varying note, I have seen Mhaldor come together a lot during this. I've seen a lot of people stepping up and giving combat tips and advice to those who don't make PK in Achaea their priority day in and day out. I've been really pleased with seeing "non-coms" get recognition for once, in a highly combative scenario where it's easy to just give recognition to who got the most awesome tank detonation ever! Or some similar circumstance. I think the War system has, despite bringing out some serious shades of ugly in people, also brought out a lot of awesome opportunities.

Plus, we're the guinea pigs of War. Going forward I imagine it will be a more finely tuned system and hopefully all the more enjoyable too.

Shall in these confines with a Tyrannus’ voice, cry “Havoc!” and let slip the guinea pigs of war.

Edit : Mhaldor doesn't have a monarch.

Aegoth

Any word yet on shortening the length? Another 14 days is gonna be killer

Antonius

Aegoth said:

Any word yet on shortening the length? Another 14 days is gonna be killer

No thanks. We need those 14 days for our Homer Simpson strategy (let you punch us in the face until you get tired out) to start to pay off.

Akri

Antonius said:

Aegoth said:

Any word yet on shortening the length? Another 14 days is gonna be killer

No thanks. We need those 14 days for our Homer Simpson strategy (let you punch us in the face until you get tired out) to start to pay off.

So we're going for an extension, then? I can keep whacking for a while more! Let's do it!

Minifie

If there's anything a nerd can do, it's to whack a little longer.

Akri

Aegoth said:

Any word yet on shortening the length? Another 14 days is gonna be killer

On a serious note, I highly doubt the admins would shorten the war's length without the two CL's express approval, or one city is gonna feel cheated out of their chance to make a comeback. It's more likely to change to standard one year after this one ends.

Astarod

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I'm not sure I agree with war bounties because of what's happening right now. Mhaldor has less active leaders, so they have more opportunities to kill us for points than them. This isn't a pot-shot at mhaldor, it's just a thought. 

I think that with less leaders present, more points should be attributed to completion of those leaders:

I.E. completion of Ashai should be more significant because Zackery is unranked and the council isn't maxed. @Ictinus.

Minifie

Irrelevant, you could just put people there who log in enough to stay ranked to game it anyway. That also opens the annoying "what if one city has 3 council vs 5 council?" Trying to mechanically balance everything to the nth degree just isn't worth it, that WILL be gamed.

Kog

Mhaldor has less active leadership and less online on average, meaning Targossas has a mechanical advantage. Mhaldor tanks should count for more, and disarms as well, in proportion to the CWHO list at time of raid sanction plus CWHO list at time of detonation or disarm divided by two. War kills should likewise be counted in proportion to earrings owned per active assisters subtracted from ratio of victim side:killer side.

How deep does this rabbit hole go?

Reyson

Astarod said:

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I'm not sure I agree with war bounties because of what's happening right now. Mhaldor has less active leaders, so they have more opportunities to kill us for points than them. This isn't a pot-shot at mhaldor, it's just a thought. 

I think that with less leaders present, more points should be attributed to completion of those leaders:

I.E. completion of Ashai should be more significant because Zackery is unranked and the council isn't maxed. @Ictinus.

Mhaldor has many more active soldiers usually than Targossas, so if we're looking at council members, we should absolutely look at soldier requirements, too. 

ETA: Clarified for in-realms at any given time, rather than in total. 

Santar

Ictinus said:

I'm going to be keeping an eye on this thread. Feedback on the system is certainly welcome, arguments about which side had 0.73 more soldiers per square mile are not fun for anyone.

Looks like we've entered that phase.

I personally think different people having different point values based on arbitrary titles like being a council member is pretty dumb. Instead, it  should be a feedback loop based on their actual performance during the war. 

Atalkez

Santar said:

Ictinus said:

I'm going to be keeping an eye on this thread. Feedback on the system is certainly welcome, arguments about which side had 0.73 more soldiers per square mile are not fun for anyone.

Looks like we've entered that phase.

I personally think different people having different point values based on arbitrary titles like being a council member is pretty dumb. Instead, it  should be a feedback loop based on their actual performance during the war. 

I agree with this. The bounties are fine, but they're mostly going to be on the players that are more on the admin side of things, than a heavy PKer. Sometimes they get linked, but often the best PKers aren't the Council/CL in the city. Having a weighted system where consistently killing and not dying, or consistently tanking/disarming makes you a higher priority target would be good, imo. 

Reyson

War rankings, plz. 

Sothantos

I like war rankings. You could use that for infamy/open PK, too.

Akri

Atalkez said:

Santar said:

Ictinus said:

I'm going to be keeping an eye on this thread. Feedback on the system is certainly welcome, arguments about which side had 0.73 more soldiers per square mile are not fun for anyone.

Looks like we've entered that phase.

I personally think different people having different point values based on arbitrary titles like being a council member is pretty dumb. Instead, it  should be a feedback loop based on their actual performance during the war. 

I agree with this. The bounties are fine, but they're mostly going to be on the players that are more on the admin side of things, than a heavy PKer. Sometimes they get linked, but often the best PKers aren't the Council/CL in the city. Having a weighted system where consistently killing and not dying, or consistently tanking/disarming makes you a higher priority target would be good, imo. 

That would be pretty cool to have a rankings-style thing to show who's the most wanted/valuable targets to kill. Doesn't need to show actual values, just a list of who's the most valuable.

Archaeon

that would just encourage more and more and more ganking etc, doing away with any sort of special bounty for killing specific people altogether would probably be the best step imo.

Gallida

Archaeon said:

that would just encourage more and more and more ganking etc, doing away with any sort of special bounty for killing specific people altogether would probably be the best step imo.

If you're ganking by kill:death ratio, you're in one of two situations.

A: You're trying to gank one of the enemy team's best fighters, who should be able to defend themselves or get away.

B: You're trying to gank one of the enemy team's LoS ents which teaches them the virtue of taking death like a champ.

Archaeon

Gallida said:

A: You're trying to gank one of the enemy team's best fighters, who should be able to defend themselves or get away.

said like someone who has not experienced ghands

Davok

I don't know much about Seafaring, but one aspect of war that has gone totally unrealized so far is naval warfare. I think we need more incentive to involve naval ships in sea battles. As it stands right now, there is basically no reason to ever even pull a naval ship out of harbour, as personal/private ships allow you to do whatever you want still at no risk to the war. The only thing that would draw ships out from either side is both sides specifically wanting to engage in that - which is not easy considering the vastness of the ocean wilderness.

Any seafaring people want to chime in? What would help with engagement on that side of things? 

Akri

Davok said:

I don't know much about Seafaring, but one aspect of war that has gone totally unrealized so far is naval warfare. I think we need more incentive to involve naval ships in sea battles. As it stands right now, there is basically no reason to ever even pull a naval ship out of harbour, as personal/private ships allow you to do whatever you want still at no risk to the war. The only thing that would draw ships out from either side is both sides specifically wanting to engage in that - which is not easy considering the vastness of the ocean wilderness.

Any seafaring people want to chime in? What would help with engagement on that side of things? 

You need an actual objective in the seas that makes it worth setting out. I have been taking out navy ships just about every day to do voyages, seamonsters, etc.... and I know Targossas took out their galley at least once (at which point we shamelessly fled in our strider). But barring actually agreeing on taking out ships for the purpose of a naval battle, it's not likely to happen. It's very similar in terms of tanks that it takes both sides being willing to fight, only that there's no way to force a Targossian ship out similar to how you could force a sanction by ganking infamous/bounties. 

The only way I see this happening more is if you have minor objectives out at sea, like a cache of supplies appearing on island X that you can get. Or escorting cargo from thraasi to tasur'ke (or vice versa) that would help with the war effort, world-wide message so the other city knows when to try and go after 'em, or let them have it. Spitballing ideas, but the main thing is that you need incentive to set sail. Ideally incentive that means trying and failing is better than not trying at all. Like something that lets you instantly fill a tank, making it ready to use in the next raid.

Sothantos

Delete ships.

Archaeon

what glorious combat, there's only group fights and ganks.  having an area where you can 1v1 for points would be awesome.

Davok

I do agree there should be horn-esque champion duels.

Archaeon

don't think that will be enough tbh, people really seem to love ganking/teaming in this