Mhaldor vs Targossas

Veldrin

It's standard PK rules, the only thing that's changed is .. sanction can be achieved from anywhere and not just in target city.

edit: oh and you can't repair destroyed rooms until after the war is over.

Minifie

That definitely needs fixing then.

Reyson

The idea that you can station/hire guards and worldburn raiders without being a soldier is ludicrous, and if you can't see why, then we'll never see eye to eye. 

Minifie

Do only soldier kills on soldiers count for the kill counting? Could we get a font power to offensively disable shrine powers in cities you have a sanction in for a hefty cost, and during war, could war sanctions prevent non-soldiers from moving guards? Something about how the guards won't obey those who will not join them as brothers in arms.

If these are not possible, make it so you have to be a soldier to score kills or any points towards anything regarding to war?

Veldrin

I wasn't aware that being a security aide or an order member was relying on you being a soldier / in the war ministery. Seems like complete different things.

This is why the soldier fights shouldn't be in the cities but in neutral grounds like the reckoning-like thing Akri has brought up. Maybe something like hold a flag spot for x minutes or charge something up by killing enemy soldiers in the area and have the areas not be able to have shrines or totems implanted

Minifie

Issue being that sounds more like mutually-agreed wargames. Not putting actual damage on an enemy city is pretty meh. You can keep things as is outside of war, but during the time anything that can be gamed by weakening your actual army/using non-soldiers etc should definitely be looked at.

Halos

Minifie said:

Do only soldier kills on soldiers count for the kill counting? Could we get a font power to offensively disable shrine powers in cities you have a sanction in for a hefty cost, and during war, could war sanctions prevent non-soldiers from moving guards? Something about how the guards won't obey those who will not join them as brothers in arms.

If these are not possible, make it so you have to be a soldier to score kills or any points towards anything regarding to war?

Why would your in-city font power from home have any bearing on a forward raid, though. Fonts are purely city defensive mechanisms (and on their own relatively weak ones at that)

Vinzent

Ehh, at the very least doing that with worldburn would be stupid. Looking at Targossas' aides 95% are soldiers already, two are dormant newbies, and two are active non-soldiers that sometimes defend and raid so infrequently I can count on one hand the number of times both have in two rl years.

If people mass quit army (or even just one or two) to specifically avoid mechanics of war, they would either get punished by the admin or city, or both. People don't abuse this, why shove more mechanical requirements down people's throats?

Minifie

Halos said:

Minifie said:

Do only soldier kills on soldiers count for the kill counting? Could we get a font power to offensively disable shrine powers in cities you have a sanction in for a hefty cost, and during war, could war sanctions prevent non-soldiers from moving guards? Something about how the guards won't obey those who will not join them as brothers in arms.

If these are not possible, make it so you have to be a soldier to score kills or any points towards anything regarding to war?

Why would your in-city font power from home have any bearing on a forward raid, though. Fonts are purely city defensive mechanisms.

The same reason we can open a box near jeramun without pissing him off, take the box back, put it into a tank and funnel magic into it to make it a mini-fire demon to demolish rooms.

Can place font power into a tank, detonate it elsewhere np. 

Halos

Minifie said:

Halos said:

Minifie said:

Do only soldier kills on soldiers count for the kill counting? Could we get a font power to offensively disable shrine powers in cities you have a sanction in for a hefty cost, and during war, could war sanctions prevent non-soldiers from moving guards? Something about how the guards won't obey those who will not join them as brothers in arms.

If these are not possible, make it so you have to be a soldier to score kills or any points towards anything regarding to war?

Why would your in-city font power from home have any bearing on a forward raid, though. Fonts are purely city defensive mechanisms.

The same reason we can open a box near jeramun without pissing him off, take the box back, put it into a tank and funnel magic into it to make it a mini-fire demon to demolish rooms.

Can place font power into a tank, detonate it elsewhere np. 

By the same logic, why shouldn't the defending city's font just then have an anti-font font power to disable that font power?

Reyson

Halos said:

Minifie said:

Halos said:

Minifie said:

Do only soldier kills on soldiers count for the kill counting? Could we get a font power to offensively disable shrine powers in cities you have a sanction in for a hefty cost, and during war, could war sanctions prevent non-soldiers from moving guards? Something about how the guards won't obey those who will not join them as brothers in arms.

If these are not possible, make it so you have to be a soldier to score kills or any points towards anything regarding to war?

Why would your in-city font power from home have any bearing on a forward raid, though. Fonts are purely city defensive mechanisms.

The same reason we can open a box near jeramun without pissing him off, take the box back, put it into a tank and funnel magic into it to make it a mini-fire demon to demolish rooms.

Can place font power into a tank, detonate it elsewhere np. 

By the same logic, why shouldn't the defending city's font just then have an anti-font font power to disable that font power?

Ngl, I'd be down.

Minifie

make both completely deplete font. If you want to keep WB, you give up weakness/tremors. 

Reyson

Someone unaffiliated with the defenders else being able to disarm a war tank is the stupidest thing, for the record. It's enough of pulling teeth to fight this war, without bullshit like that. 

Sobriquet

Reyson said:

The idea that you can station/hire guards and worldburn raiders without being a soldier is ludicrous, and if you can't see why, then we'll never see eye to eye. 

But the Security ministry isn't linked to the War Ministry and Worldburn is a purely Order related activity. So nothing really to do with soldiers at all.

/devilsadvocate. 

Stheno

Infamy loss was flagged immediately as something that would cripple soldiers' ability to fight and pursue the enemy threatening and demolishing their home. It was brushed off, after being implemented based on the complaints of someone who has opted out of the majority of war. With that change made, the official stance seems to have shifted to "we shouldn't affect the outcome by making changes mid-war". There is now no reason not to bring a crushing force to kill guards, tank, and skip merrily off into the sunset. The result of rewarding non-aggression and heavy-handed plays is combatants slowly being bored to death.

Again, I've been infamous since day one and am happy to die to anyone, including the people now interceding on Targossas's behalf.

If you'd like to script Mhaldor as the eternal underdogs, just do that. Don't punish us for wanting to fight in a war.

Veldrin

Reyson said:

Someone unaffiliated with the defenders else being able to disarm a war tank is the stupidest thing, for the record. It's enough of pulling teeth to fight this war, without bullshit like that. 

Don't worry, only soldiers can disarm tanks (and get experience for it) : edit I was just told that (at least) soldiers from other cities can also remove tanks, didn't know that!

which is also why it should be impossible to put down tanks if there's nobody around that can disarm the damn things

Halos

Hey that's not bad, actually.The fact this idea would only pop up in a thread about a war between two theological cities is making me laugh. Considering the other cities, it's such a rare, specific thing why even bother hardcoding anything anti-shrine-related for ministries of cities. Just kill them.

Adrik

Reyson said:

Someone unaffiliated with the defenders else being able to disarm a war tank is the stupidest thing, for the record. It's enough of pulling teeth to fight this war, without bullshit like that. 

Ganking (with more than just you, you had bounty. The other folks attacking did not) non infamous people/non bounty people to get your sanction is also the stupidest thing ever.

As is sending your whole team forward and not paying attention to your own tank...

I had a debt to pay back, since I lured your guards into them. sry / not sry.

Reyson

Sobriquet said:

Reyson said:

The idea that you can station/hire guards and worldburn raiders without being a soldier is ludicrous, and if you can't see why, then we'll never see eye to eye. 

But the Security ministry isn't linked to the War Ministry and Worldburn is a purely Order related activity. So nothing really to do with soldiers at all.

/devilsadvocate. 

I don't think you should be able to hire guards in wartime and not be open to attack during a sanctioned raid. That's utterly goofy. I get the argument for worldburn, but I dunno. How is it okay to be able to push a whole group out, and we know you're likely to try doing it, but I can't hit you, knowing what you're trying to do? That makes zero sense. 

Halos

Reyson said:

Someone unaffiliated with the defenders else being able to disarm a war tank is the stupidest thing, for the record. It's enough of pulling teeth to fight this war, without bullshit like that. 

OK that was actually hilarious. He got truefavored for it too

Adrik

Halos said:

Reyson said:

Someone unaffiliated with the defenders else being able to disarm a war tank is the stupidest thing, for the record. It's enough of pulling teeth to fight this war, without bullshit like that. 

OK that was actually hilarious. He got truefavored for it too

strongfavoured, actually.

The Divine voice of Twilight echoes in your head, "It seem I have inadvertently painted a target upon your back. No matter, I am sure you can handle it."

Still love him tho.

Reyson

@Halos I'm sure it seems like it, to you, but Stheno's getting a lot of shit for it, and it really shouldn't be an option, since there wasn't a snowflake's chance in Hell Targossas would've disarmed that tank. 

Y'all keep crowing about how we're being mean, but when you're fine with stuff like this, it makes it very, very hard to want to play even remotely nice in return. 

ETA: @Daeir your team issues for anything that doesn't have raw mechanical justification without even going to IC retribution, so this push to make things mechanically justifiable is 100% on Targossas. 

Edit: Tags

Akri

Halos said:

Reyson said:

Someone unaffiliated with the defenders else being able to disarm a war tank is the stupidest thing, for the record. It's enough of pulling teeth to fight this war, without bullshit like that. 

OK that was actually hilarious. He got truefavored for it too

Honestly it kinda is, and definitely on us for missing it. I would've tried the same for laughs too. Though I do see how most people might not find it as amusing if it happened to them. 

Stheno

Tesha said:
I have a problem with the role Pandora and Twilight have played in providing incentive for third parties to get involved.

Daeir said:
Fighting Mhaldor is fine, fighting segments of Ashtan, Hashan and various other assortments of neutral parties? Not so much.

Archaeon

Reyson said:

@Halos I'm sure it seems like it, to you, but Stheno's getting a lot of shit for it, and it really shouldn't be an option, since there wasn't a snowflake's chance in Hell Targossas would've disarmed that tank. 

Y'all keep crowing about how we're being mean, but when you're fine with stuff like this, it makes it very, very hard to want to play even remotely nice in return. 

ETA: @Daeir your team issues for anything that doesn't have raw mechanical justification without even going to IC retribution, so this push to make things mechanically justifiable is 100% on Targossas. 

Edit: Tags

i know you're collared to stheno, but like.... you don't always have to be on her leash

Reyson

As someone with a recurring war bounty and infamy, on top of that, you shouldn't be able to hide in Nirvana, as far as I'm concerned, to be honest. 

As for the frivolous issues, they'll certainly be thrown out. We still have to sift through and copy from logs and write the same response, over and over, and frankly, trying to get the admins to win the war for you instead of, like, fighting the war, leaves as bad a taste in my mouth as I'm sure you have in yours. 

Given that both sides are teaming for bounties, maybe we should just accept that as a fact of life, call it a wash, eh? 

Akri

Daeir said:

Why's Stheno getting shit for an opportunist coming in and doing opportunist things? It doesn't have anything to do with her insofar as anyone can tell - none of us attributed it to her, in any case.

As for the rest, well, I'm pretty sure Targossas is aware of the whole RP justification thing for stuff that isn't explicitly covered by rules. If you're getting issued for attacking non-soldiers for stationing while in city or whatever then that's dumb and I'm almost certain those issues will get thrown out.

There has been a lot of chatter about people's lack of infamy being ignored when they're being hunted for sanctions and entire groups going 8 people deep on someone when only one of them has a bounty, dying to the other 7, then said groups coming back again and again to repeatedly try and snag those bounties in much the same manner, which clearly is not in line with the spirit of the system given the huge proclamations about how soldiers are not supposed to be open PK. If people want to issue over that kind of stuff, they're perfectly entitled to and I think the clarification will be welcomed by all parties involved.

It also really doesn't help the optics of your situation when one of your dudes comes in to Nirvana after abusing a class change bug/oversight to become a Priest... as a Mhaldorian... during the middle of a war. The IC scruples that poses makes my brain hurt.

Eh, the bounty-hunting happened both ways, and I'm not sure it's all that big a deal. How else are you supposed to complete a bounty on someone with Chenubian wings, who hides on ships or burrows two levels deep if you try to talon tattoo him out of his subs house? Or anyone who afk's for hours and hours on guards, indoors. How are you supposed to complete a bounty? How are you supposed to get them for being infamous? You know how hard it is to catch you for your own bounty, can you really say that's all fair and good? It's not an ideal system, for sure, but I'd MUCH rather let this happen to get some fighting going, than to just all hide on ships to wait out bounties or infamy.

Not to mention I can most assuredly say some people get killed, check their infamy and only see they're not infamous (anymore), and then issue without trying IC resolution. Even if they WERE infamous (I check before attacking and I don't interfere or attack for bounties, but I have no problem bribing someone off a ship to let someone get to them) before we attacked!

Also, the person doing that was punished for that by Stheno, she slammed down hard on it. But I also don't think it's in anyway okay to afk for hours, and hours on end, day after day, in a place we can't reach you so you can let infamy tick down. You're not the biggest offender in that, but maybe Nirvana shouldn't be a place you can sit safely forever? Was it a smart move to go Priest and go after you? Not at all. But what option did you give them otherwise?


Damn, Adrik turned the entire thread to ruins and it's gonna devolve now. Can we just go back to skirting pk rules in favour of getting fights and fun? Both sides have been doing it in equal measure anyway!

Archaeon

none of these fights are actually fun though, that's part of the problem

Minifie

So we have definitely had this devolve into finding every caveat and potential way to win without promoting conflict outside of curbstomps and hardcore skirting rules.

Time to toss out the war system and post a nice scolding post towards the players. Tsk tsk tsk, can't have nice things.

Reyson

Bribe a priest to let us in every day for 24 days in a row? Be serious, man. 

ETA: I'm not expecting you to do anything about the issues. Just explaining why some of us are advocating for more clearly delineated rules for wartime.