Hashan Thread

Achilles

The problem with Hashan is it will always be seen as Ashtan's trash (its the Jersey of Achaea).  They let Ashtani into their houses, rely on them heavily to defend their own city and as a result they lack a strong identity.

Until they stand up and do the bulk of the work themselves they will be viewed externally as riding Ashtan's coattails. 

Triak

Achilles said:

The problem with Hashan is it will always be seen as Ashtan's trash (its the Jersey of Achaea).  They let Ashtani into their houses, rely on them heavily to defend their own city and as a result they lack a strong identity.

Until they stand up and do the bulk of the work themselves they will be viewed externally as riding Ashtan's coattails. 

Is this similar or different from how Cyrene and Shallam are ever able to win a CTF?

Jacen

Whut

Bluef

Vayne said:

Ya, give me a few; I will write a book.

Vayne stole my response! 

Achilles

Triak said:

Achilles said:

The problem with Hashan is it will always be seen as Ashtan's trash (its the Jersey of Achaea).  They let Ashtani into their houses, rely on them heavily to defend their own city and as a result they lack a strong identity.

Until they stand up and do the bulk of the work themselves they will be viewed externally as riding Ashtan's coattails. 

Is this similar or different from how Cyrene and Shallam are ever able to win a CTF?

Actually its somewhat the opposite.  "Good" has in the past had its player base somewhat diluted because of Cyrene and neutral gods.  The CTF is a singular unifying event (pretty much to keep the effigy out of Ashtan's hands).  

Tvistor

The saddest part is that the majority of orgs could be fixed with the Mhaldorian method of just casting out the right people and rapidly promoting the others -- especially since other cities actually have active Divine -- but it can't be done due to IC reasons. The power of the Tyrannus to determine a city's direction means a good leader can change absolutely everything for the better, while an ineffectual one can drive the city into the ground within three IRL weeks.

I think that's honestly the right direction to go in for every org if you can square it away ICly and have a Divine you can trust to pick the right type of person.

Triak

Achilles said:

Triak said:

Achilles said:

The problem with Hashan is it will always be seen as Ashtan's trash (its the Jersey of Achaea).  They let Ashtani into their houses, rely on them heavily to defend their own city and as a result they lack a strong identity.

Until they stand up and do the bulk of the work themselves they will be viewed externally as riding Ashtan's coattails. 

Is this similar or different from how Cyrene and Shallam are ever able to win a CTF?

Actually its somewhat the opposite.  "Good" has in the past had its player base somewhat diluted because of Cyrene and neutral gods.  The CTF is a singular unifying event (pretty much to keep the effigy out of Ashtan's hands).  

Translation:  It is ok for us to team up with another large city when there is a tangible benefit.  It is not ok to team up with another city when it costs me txtp.

Tvistor

I have an idea. Let's not make a thread on Hashan about Shallam/Cyrene CTF lameness.

Achilles

@triak - there's a mutual benefit for both Shallam and Cyrene since Ashtan is the thorn in everyone's side.  The cities alternated between which city would help each other that CTF cycle, Cyrene actually passed when offered help by Shallam in Y575 and subsequently lost.  Shallam accepted the help in Y600 and won.

People can help from time to time, but its amusing when 80% of the defenders of Hashan are Ashtani/Nihilists.  When Shallam or Cyrene help each other (never happened that often) it would be a small contingent of Shallamese/Cyrenese (who almost always got targeted first for their precious textp).

Katzchen

It was definitely way easier to learn combat in Mhaldor. I was pretty terrible when I left Hashan, I was never particularly motivated to get better by myself, but Mhaldor pushed me to have to improve a lot. The constant raid defence, and enforced guild requirements related to combat really helped.

Hhaos

Just to defend myself from @Tvistor's comment, when I was an infernal I was using 66 damage 235 speed rapiers and have only recently acquired the uber speed raps. We have some fighters with a good potential but most of us get so flustered with combat sometimes that it gets hard, but as @Vayne has said, we do have some promising others in the city that if they would just login more often would be considerably good, this applies to people like Hawek, Payne, Rom, Illyose, Tzond, and I'm probably missing a few others. The hardest part of anything in Hashan is that there are those that will just sit there and do nothing but due to our city's laws we can't do things like execute them for their actions, so there is no drive for them to care or participate in anything at all.

Edit: Did forget some people, namely Cadarus and Zoldine should she get back into fighting.

Bluef

Hashan is a huge part of my character's history. Bluef was a Regent and a House leader there, and she enjoyed being Ambassador for damn near 100 years. For the last fifty years or so, she's obviously been an enemy and caused their citizenry a fair bit of annoyance, but it remains the city where I grew out of that awkward stage between age 50-100, when you start to figure out how some things in the realm really work and develop your real Rp-self and style of play.

Like many people who have played for nearly a decade now, a lot of what happens in Hashan's political arena makes me plaugh though. At one point this year, for example, more than half the Regents of Hashan had at one time or another been charged with Treason by the same City they were now helping to rule. Older players remember these things and it makes it difficult to take the city seriously. Moreover, many of us remember Twilight from years ago, and our interactions with him most likely colored the way some of us received his re-emergence.

That said, I have to disagree that the general tenor of distaste for Hashan comes from those former Hashani who have had bad experiences with Hashan and are spreading hate about the city. Perhaps no one has a bigger IC reason to hold a grudge against Hashan than Bluef, but the reality is that a handful of Hashan's citizenry does a far better job of making the city look weak, petty, and overly litigious than she ever could. Whether it is the 5 v 1 ganking, or the intervening in bloodlining attempts (when the child is not even Hashani) or the way some Hashani go out of their way to scorn those who demonstrate a mere hint of a friendship with enemies, it boils down to citizens being the ones who are making the city look bad, not the enemies. This is the same problem faced in every city though, and it won't get better until they can find a reason to remove certain people from the Crown who just like to sit around Crossroads and hash drama. 

Combat-wise I think @Vayne's already addressed the fact that he knows the city needs to better itself in that regard. Beyond finding someone competent to lead and train their militia though (sorry I disagree that @Hhaos is a good option for this) Hashan would also need to learn to work independently. Calling in Mhaldorians and Ashtani allies is seen as the standard Hashani way of handling conflict and has been ever since the first Mhaldorian treaty was signed like 200 years ago. It is a tough mold to break, but it can be done. As long as the city's patron continues her alliance to Babel, it is unlikely that the perception will go away any time soon though. 

If anything, I'd like to see that alliance culminate in tension with Mhaldor, perhaps leading to a stronger, renewed call for apostates and infernals to return to Mhaldor (I think you're the only city that still has these following the last round of threats from the Dreadwhatchamaclit, correct? I may be mistaken though...). I'd like this for the obvious IC reason that the Curia grew out of Suffering's presence in the city but also because an alliance with Mhaldor never made sense to me, given that Sartan raped one of the members of their Supernal Triad. 8 /

Tvistor

AFAIK they're allowed to have necromancers as long as they never do anything of any importance. I know that some members of the Garden did some extremely strange things when Carmain tried to demand all the necromancers leave. A newspost was edited, some stuff went down.

Katzchen

@Tvistor shh don't tell the heathens that.

Tvistor

They have the right to know. I will not be silenced.

Katzchen

Well, now they'll all know it's pretty much an empty threat! (unless you happen to be a combat capable Hashani necromancer Hhaos)

Jacen

Sorry bout the disagree, @Tvistor. No idea how it got there. 

In response to @Achilles: You are vastly overrating Ashtan's involvement in our raid defense. Only two instances come to mind when i try to think of more than two Ashtani helping, and that was the first time ya'll raided in this most recent conflict with us, bring in a rediculous number of dragons plus a cata, plus meteors. Given the basis for the alliance, it would have been incredibly stupid for us to stand there and take a beating like you apparently want us to. The second instance was the second raid, in which we assumed you were going to do the same thing again. 

Other than that, we have tried to turn away Ashtani when they ask to defend. Ryley, Roroan, Jarrel, and Akia are required by House law to defend Hashan when we are raided, but I keep a relaxed stance on this, because, well... Add Akia and Jarrel to any group of combatants and you have the best group there is. I know that when ya'll raid, you're only expecting Hashani and I do my best to keep it that way, though if our Ashtani house members want to join, I can't turn them away. 

There were a few times that one or two Ashtani that were officially allies of the city defended with us. That's completely to be expected.

By the way, at the time we were accepting Ashtani, there was just as much support for us to accept Eleusians as well... Just, the whole situation with the Ashura gave us some Ashtani combatants without Houses, who saw a House in Hashan with good ideals and could use their help. No equivalent situation in Eleusis.

I could go on and on justifying our actions and condemning yours, but it all boils down to a single statement: Raid us with appropriate numbers, and you'll see a pure Hashani defense. I admit, there are a few people in Hashan that support the "do whatever it takes to beat the shit out of them" approach, but none are in positions of power, so as long as you don't timezone abuse and catch the leaders logged out, you'll be fine.

Tvistor

I will point out that my own personal experience of raids on Hashan have always degenerated into Ashtan defending. There are only two instances of that, but that's because I decided if I wanted to fight Ashtani I'd be raiding Ashtan.

I am mentioning this just because it does explain why Hashan is generally looked upon negatively. The only conflict I've been involved in with the city is dealing with Ashtani raiders + that warp war.

Not a great track record (again, from my own personal experience).

Jacen

Noted. @ Vayne's already been good about turning Ashtani away. All I can do is ensure that it doesn't happen when I'm there.

Coeur

Hashan is Hashan.

Let's leave it at that.

Achilles

Jacen said:

Sorry bout the disagree, @Tvistor. No idea how it got there. 

In response to @Achilles: You are vastly overrating Ashtan's involvement in our raid defense. Only two instances come to mind when i try to think of more than two Ashtani helping, and that was the first time ya'll raided in this most recent conflict with us, bring in a rediculous number of dragons plus a cata, plus meteors. Given the basis for the alliance, it would have been incredibly stupid for us to stand there and take a beating like you apparently want us to. The second instance was the second raid, in which we assumed you were going to do the same thing again. 

We only raided a few times and every time Tanris and company showed up and led the defense.  Only the first time did we go in with the mentality of let's curb stomp them to send a point but it escalated into a huge battle when DURING the raid half of Ashtan got unenemied and came to defend.  

Tvistor

I suppose, in the end, the discussion is pretty irrelevant. Ultimately Hashan will get treated with more respect when it shows it has earned it, because the assurances on the forums don't match up with what I've actually seen IG, though I'm willing to accept they're making the effort.

Coeur

@Tvistor Good to know you noticed.

Mizik

Achilles said:

@triak - blah blah blah blah

People can help from time to time, but its amusing when 80% of the defenders of Hashan are Ashtani/Nihilists.  When Shallam or Cyrene help each other (never happened that often) it would be a small contingent of Shallamese/Cyrenese (who almost always got targeted first for their precious textp).

What makes it -really- amusing is that this Ashtani 80% is 4 dudes and the other 20% are the entirety of the Hashani population online every single time Shallam decides to bring an Icon Conquering Force (ICF) to raid.

As for "Why do Shallamese get targeted first when you raid Cyrene ? Solution: Ashtan textp." 

Idiot.

PS: Let's keep this going all day. I have 10 slow hours of work ahead of me and am feeling super combative.

Achilles

Mizik said:

Achilles said:

@triak - blah blah blah blah

People can help from time to time, but its amusing when 80% of the defenders of Hashan are Ashtani/Nihilists.  When Shallam or Cyrene help each other (never happened that often) it would be a small contingent of Shallamese/Cyrenese (who almost always got targeted first for their precious textp).

What makes it -really- amusing is that this Ashtani 80% is 4 dudes and the other 20% are the entirety of the Hashani population online every single time Shallam decides to bring an Icon Conquering Force (ICF) to raid.

As for "Why do Shallamese get targeted first when you raid Cyrene ? Solution: Ashtan textp." 

Idiot.

PS: Let's keep this going all day. I have 10 slow hours of work ahead of me and am feeling super combative.

Akia and Jarrod are rubbing off on you, I thought you were more rational than that.

More than 4 nihilists show up to defend each time and the ones who do are worth more than the rest of the Hashan group. 

Lyr

Coeur said:

Hashan is Hash(t)an.

Let's leave it at that.

Hashan is like two letters and an Akia/Jarrel away from Ashtan.

Mizik

The infamous AchillesMath. I had never experienced it firsthand. 

It is Ashtan's responsibility as World Police to defend the less privileged from the oppressive fist of *shallam. I'll also start up a Cyrene raid so I can show you a Shallamese head count for comparison.

Achilles

Mizik said:

The infamous AchillesMath. I had never experienced it firsthand. 

It is Ashtan's responsibility as World Police to defend the less privileged from the oppressive fist of *shallam. I'll also start up a Cyrene raid so I can show you a Shallamese head count for comparison.

What math, I just cut and paste a falcon glance/veilglance and then our CWHO at the time.  

Silas

Acting like the decisive force defending Hashan from *shallam wasn't Ashtani is silly. I'm sure the Hashani bows helped you guys out, but it was mos def Ashtan defending Hashan.

Iocun

Mizik said:

 I'll also start up a Cyrene raid

You always get my hopes up and then you just do something else