Hashan Thread

Argys

Inspired both by Lodi's thread and the massive derail going in the Refugee thread, I hereby give you all the Hashan thread!

I'm curious to hear from everyone, Hashani or not, what's good and what's bad!

Vayne

Ya, give me a few; I will write a book.

Sylvance

I like that all the best combatants are from Hashan. Possibly because it is similar to Hashishin?

Vaehl

wat lol

Vayne

Question: What's a Hashan?

Answer:  One of five imaginary city-states in the text-based game Achaea by Iron Realms Entertainment.

We have all heard the myriad of jokes from players from other cities about “Hashan not existing”, “What’s a Hashan”, and generally how Hashan does not matter and is irrelevant to the game’s existence overall. This has made me wonder why exactly people have such an aversion or apathy to it.

The main source of the distaste for Hashan seems to stem from certain players that have had a bad experience with the city in the past, usually the reasonably distant pass, that hold some sort of grudge. I am not going to contest your bad experience, that is for you alone to decide, nor am I going to attempt to say Hashan is free of any agents that might produce a bad experience for a player, for that would be naive.

However, I would and will argue that personal experience, for most freely admit that beyond their limited personal experience that they do not know much about Hashan or its culture, is by no means an indicator of the entirety of Hashan or its current state today. Furthermore, although I do my best to ignore the constant digs as the near sole defender of Hashan on these forums, it is just a game after all, I cannot abide when there are instances where a new player seeks out help and other players immediately bash Hashan(Ex. Argys thread where this was posted). I am all for the various factions trying to say, “We’re the best! Come join us!” but this type of thing is just uncool and detrimental to the game as a whole.

True,  in a city-state like Hashan that is free and open-minded it is difficult, nigh impossible, to root out every bad seed that brings down the perceived credibility of their affiliated organizations, but Hashan has taken great strides towards bettering itself in these regards over the past few years.

This lead to my next thought, with the advent of Twilight’s return some 3 years ago, Hashan started a renaissance that I feel it is still riding quite successfully upon. Twilight, Ourania, and myself along with many others to different extents, have busted our butts to improve Hashan from what it had become. And what it had become was the city of “neutrality.” Something it was never meant to be but in the apathy of past leaders and citizens had nonetheless lapsed into. Now, after garnering such a reputation it is quite difficult to re-enter the world stage despite our efforts, especially with the monument rise of the Nihilists and the devastating disappearance of Twilight, a point a will hark back to momentarily.

I will use my experiences  as Seneschal with Shallam as an example of my frustration with this. For quite some time I had been instigating trouble with Shallam, if ever so subtly as is Hashan style in attempts to start a conflict(A long term goal of Twilight's). I was quite sure the digs, backhanded comments, condescending subcontexts, and some outright oppositions were clearly understood by their government (Bahtell being leader at the time of initiation). Yet full conflict did not break out with Shallam until, until, Ourania allied with Babel and  I fired one or two meteors at Achilles during a Ashtani defense as an ally of Babel. Now again, this is after all the build-up I had laid down through Hashani pretenses and even after multiple Hashani had participated in offensive raids of their own free will, that is they did so via their freedom as Hashani to do so and not because of order alliance or any other nonpatriotic reason, with Ashtan against Shallam just a recently. I'll give Halos a little leeway since he probably was not aware of or did not recognize the full extent of the tension I had meant to build

A second example, which transpired just last night was the little event that happened in Hashan regarding Aurora’s statue. I went to Wyverex who is apparently the refugee’s leader now and was ignored. So I decided to go straight to New Hope and hope they do not kill me on sight. I was directed towards Aktillum who treated the whole ordeal as a joke. In after though, I probably should have just left and waited for someone with real authority and manners was available.

Anyway, my point is that it is not that Hashan does not currently want a place at the “big boy” table, though perhaps it did not in the past; it is that this lingering attitude of irrelevancy seems to linger.

Which brings me towards my final thought, we are not apathetic or irrelevant because we do not raid constantly like some other cities. Hashan is, was, and should be the city of Darkness and therefore our influence is as such. Just because we do not raid for 10 hours a day does not mean we do not have an impact on the world stage. I can think of a plethora of instances where Twilight has majorly affected world politics, cutting off Celestia to split up Eleusis and Shallam  and the whole Nurazar event are just two examples. Hashan’s touch is subtle, that is how it is meant to be, we fluidly make political deals with whichever city will be most beneficial and are hub of all classes, religions and ideas. Still, I have been working on our military side, though we have a long way to go we have seen improvements in our limited time and experience. Likewise, Twilight's sudden disappearance and the subsequent effect of his order going to hell soon after has left that type of offensive action mostly dead. Ourania does a great job as patron and is able to through out some mischievous events but overall her order does not have the roleplay drive to be the manipulative bastards the Darkwalkers are supposed to be. If there was one org that could have gone toe to toe, at least ideologically, with the Nihilists it would be the Darkwalkers.

Anyway, I did not want to make a thread like this unless someone else did first. There are just not enough Hashani on the forums to care.Despite that, I am rather happy with the direction Hashan continues to head in. I think we have an excellent line up of Regents, Ministers, and House Leaders for the first time I can remember. We have forged our identity as city of the Night once again and have an amazing God player determined as I am to see it continue on.

Am I happy where we are? Hell no! There is progress to be made and I plan to make it.

Vaehl

Could you add a summarized version at the bottom, please.

Aitox

I have been a citizen of every city and I can honestly say that I do not understand 'city hate'. Every city offers a different experience; when I read Hashan's descriptions, interact with her denizens and citizens, what plays out in my head is totally different than what I experienced in Shallam, for example, and I absolutely love the variety. Mhaldor has always, and always will be, my favourite city. But can I play my alt there currently? No, because I am enjoying the flavour that Hashan offers too much currently. Does that make Mhaldor crappy for not catering to my personal needs? No. It's the inability of the players themselves to appreciate what each individual city has to offer on a myriad of levels, that nurtures this apparent distaste.

Sylvance

Aitox said:

I have been a citizen of every city and I can honestly say that I do not understand 'city hate'. Every city offers a different experience; when I read Hashan's descriptions, interact with her denizens and citizens, what plays out in my head is totally different than what I experienced in Shallam, for example, and I absolutely love the variety. Mhaldor has always, and always will be, my favourite city. But can I play my alt there currently? No, because I am enjoying the flavour that Hashan offers too much currently. Does that make Mhaldor crappy for not catering to my personal needs? No. It's the inability of the players themselves to appreciate what each individual city has to offer on a myriad of levels, that nurtures this apparent distaste.

What do you know, @Aitox? You're a baby listening to music on headphones with its eyes closed!

Argys

@Vayne
I hope to contribute to the positive direction.

@Aitox
I think I would agree with that. Personally, I think the flavor and history of Hashan provide a great place to nurture the direction I'm thinking of for my character.

Aktillum

Vayne said:

I was directed towards Aktillum who treated the whole ordeal as a joke. In after though, I probably should have just left and waited for someone with real authority and manners was available

1: Someone with real authority and manners was available, they didn't want to talk to you and sent me instead.

2: Aktillum took the ordeal very seriously, he just didn't come to the conclusion you intended.

3: Not coming to the conclusion you intended was Aktillum's intention.

Perhaps you should have handed me a script if you didn't like the way Aktillum roleplayed.

Or invented a better ruse.

Asmodron

I guess I should toss this out there and get it over with:


"There is no such thing as Hashan".


P.S: Will be giving a more detailed reply later.

Vayne

@Aktillum, it is fair enough that your character responded in the way he felt best, but it contributes to my point that the attitude exists, and I sincerely wished I walked away now, yes.

Horatio

I can't really speak about Hashan today, but the Hashan of the past...

It was irrelevant because it really had no movers and shakers in the grand scheme of things.When there were events, and you were Ashtani and could run off in a group with Shakti, Silverstorm, and Estach, you knew were part of something big. Same if you were from Shallam or a Churchie; if you were running with Aldair, Dresden, and the other big Paladins and Priests from back then, something the whole world would feel was going down. Hashan, even with its large contingency of Darkwalkers, chilled back for the most part. I'm certainly not knocking that, but that's where the feeling of irrelevance from older generations of players comes from. When the funk was going down, outside of a few d-bag serpents trying to steal in the clutter of text, Hashan was fairly quiet.

The only world event I really remember Hashan getting involved in back then was the Infernals vs. The World.

Triak

Vayne/Ourania have done a great job with Hashan.

Aktillum

I agree with Horatio and will also point out that older, "legendary" Darkwalkers like Darknight were known for being prolific AIM plotters who made use of spy-alts, perhaps a bit unabashedly. 

@Vayne The general consensus when dealing with Darkwalkers is "don't believe them". Aktillum, in all his bumbling space-cadetness, was your best case scenario, anyone else would have burnt the letter and told you to take your plots elsewhere.

Aktillum insulted your lack of suspects but I lagged and you guys had already left the room when it went through.

Talonia

Just a few responses to some comments from the Refugees thread:

Hashan has good RP circles and bad RP circles, just like Ashtan.  I think, as others have pointed out, the good circle is on the ascendancy. 

Hashan may appear insular to players in Shallam, because (A) fraternization rules prohibit/squelch a lot of contact and (B) an inability to take Hashani seriously frustrates the Hashani, with good reason.  It doesn’t help that (C) a lot of players seem to be bad at roleplaying consequences that are divorced from in-game fighting mechanics.  Someone dropped a dozen shrines in a day?  Damn, impressive.  Some Occultist/Nihilist or Darkwalker took a lot of time to put together a well-written ritual and it didn’t actually change fundamental game mechanics or gameplay?  Yawn, no big deal.  At least the Chaos folk have a small but capable fighting contingent, which enables them to be taken more seriously than they otherwise would be.         

Finally, it’s a little rich that contemporary Hashani should have to take criticism for how they run a city primarily from a group of people who ran a city so incapable of fulfilling its IC function that widespread consensus and ultimate action supported BLOWING IT TO SMITHEREENS.     

Vayne

Vaehl said:

Could you add a summarized version at the bottom, please.

That is the summarized version.

Chryenth

Vayne said:

That is the summarized version.

Can you post the full version, then?

In less than three consecutive limit-length posts, if possible.

Sidonia

Hashan needs more combatants that know what they're talking about to teach other people, can't be taken seriously without any military capability

Vayne

That might take me a while, in all things I strive to be concise. :P

Delphinus

"Hashan doesn't exist" is a tired old joke from the days when Twilight was gone from Hashan, and the city was, in fact, mostly without culture or purpose. Achaeans, once established, just have a tendency to stick around for a long time -- and usually well past the point of a joke's relevancy.

Fraternisation rules are pretty stupid, though I'm not familiar with them in relation to Hashan. Keep them as an ace in your pocket for that one idiot who won't stop bashing with Sothantos. Otherwise, it's just going to snuff out the better scenarios before they can begin. (Because I made the mistake of not clarifying in another thread: I am not insulting Hashan's rules, as I don't know how Hashan implements or acts on this law.)

Do bear in mind that insularity is not a positive thing. My time with the Druids taught me this. If you've little visible impact on the world, you will absolutely be seen as irrelevant to it.

Tanaar

Defining yourself as being manipulative is not conducive to being successfully manipulative. Hence, the whole Darkwalker approach is flawed, unless you can successfully keep it secret, which is impossible long-term

Iocun

I've been guilty of alluding to "Hashan doesn't exist", but I only do it in direct response to Hashani mocking my own text city!

Talonia

To clarify, @Delphinus, I mean Shallamese/Cyrenian/Good fraternization rules and norms prevent contact, not Hashan's.  That's why it's primarily Shallamese enemies to Darkness/Ourania that were calling them insular.  There's plenty of Occultist/Nihilist and Vayne-faction mixing and other combinations, on the other hand, for instance, so they'll seem significantly less insular from other perspectives.  

It seems to me that Dark/Chaotic factions have traditionally disdained fraternization rules for several well-justified IC reasons:
1) one of the goals of members of these groups is to "corrupt" followers of more rigid and pure philosophies...thus the obsession with various types of "marking", as opposed to Light's focus on "cleansing"
2) many of the ways these groups accomplish their major objectives is independent of and not reliant on ideological purity itself (i.e. Oblivion will happen whether you like it or not, Darkwalkers need to make connections in all cities/orgs to have power...Mhaldor is notably different than these, and I think would shun the concept of doing seemingly Good deeds in order to muddle the moral thinking of its enemies, whereas Chaos/Darkness can act in unpredictable ways)

Good's response to these characteristics was not to demand personal moral fortitude on the part of its own characters (and thereby lend rise to interesting struggles against the self in many of its members), but rather to minimize the chance that they'd come into contact with those that could challenge their beliefs and get them to think differently.  No single member of Good will ever walk into the lion's nest (Fire and Spice, the Crossroads, etc.) and talk philosophy, and the Chaos/Dark faction members who try to do so in Good settlements are chased away, not philosophically dueled.  

I had other things to say, but have forgotten them now; perhaps they'll crop up later.

Tanaar

Interestingly enough, the use of the word 'insular' started with a non-enemy to either Hashan not Ourania - me. I don't think I'm even officially enemied to Twilight, though I wouldn't mind giving cause to rectify that oversight.

Hell, back in the Rho days of the Church, I was one of the chief advocates FOR Hashan, saying that Hashan was just a place, and we should fight the Darkwalkers and Revolutionaries separately, rather than the city, which could still be 'saved' from an IC perspective, though we all knew OOC that would never be allowed. I was even a member of the Hashan Legion at one point. In hindsight, this was incredibly naïve, both as a character and a player, but hey, I was in an idealistic late teen/early twenties phase.

So when I say that Hashan was an insular wreck that couldn't city their way out of a paper bag, it's not through my lack of effort

Vayne

@Tanaar Hashan nor Darkwalkers define themselves as manipulative. This is the forum, I was speaking in an OOC sense, obviously Vayne does not go around telling people he is try to manipulate them. I havenoticed how little Good factions actually know about Twilight's teachings.

@Talonia makes some excellent points, I have experienced the non fraternization rules in both Shallam and Cyrene to be limiting for both sides by divine hand in some instances when topics came up organically and other times just because I was there.

Edit: Also @Tanaar, I cannot help but notice all of your references are very very past tense.

Achilles

Long discussion, impossible to address everyone's viewpoint but I'll discuss mainly Vayne's

1.  Shallam knew what you/Hashan was trying to do.  But we were up to our necks with Nihilists raids to begin with and decided you guys would only be a distraction.  Finally we got tired enough (plus you aimed your meteors at my heel you jerk!) we forced Halos to make it official.

2.  Hashan is going to have to work independently if it wants genuine respect.  Unenemying people in the midst of getting raided just so those former enemies could defend, a bit of a joke.  If you are going to lean on them to defend Hashan constantly then Hashan is going to be viewed as nothing more than a meatshield for Ashtan/Nihilists.

But mainly, it was the heel man.

Jiraishin

Responding mostly to @Cinya and @Tanaar from the Shallam thread, because I don't want to perpetuate the derail:

Hashan can be pretty insular. My presence there, even when Mhaldor was not involved in hostilities with Hashan, even when I wasn't doing anything besides looking for deals in Hashan's shops without interacting with anyone, produced  some very clearly  negative reactions. Likewise the one time I tried to interact with @Vayne previous to when we talked business and I figured out trying was hopeless. I get that I am a dangerous, untrustworthy Naga element and that @Vayne dislikes Naga on principle, but what I got out of those interactions was just we don't want to deal with you.

Tanris

Just to clarify, those unenemyings were planned fully IC in advance. Hashan has also been very good of late about telling us "no, we're good" if we ask if they  need assistance when they don't. This is something all cities could benefit from emulating.

Achilles

Tanris said:

Just to clarify, those unenemyings were planned fully IC in advance. Hashan has also been very good of late about telling us "no, we're good" if we ask if they  need assistance when they don't. This is something all cities could benefit from emulating.

In discussion or not, they literally began unenemying as they were being raided. Discussion should have been postponed until threat over. Otherwise they were viewed as the scared little sibling who had to get their older brother to save them.

Goggo

Tanris said:

Just to clarify, those unenemyings were planned fully IC in advance. Hashan has also been very good of late about telling us "no, we're good" if we ask if they  need assistance when they don't. This is something all cities could benefit from emulating.

We haven't raided them since the Bal'meth event? I guess that's why?