Hashan Thread

Argys

@Elowin

It does sound awesome on paper, and it probably would have been if a steady culture had been engrained in the leadership/city beforehand. From what it sounds like though, all it ended up doing was pulling the leadership of the city, with allegiances to other orgs, in all kinds of directions with no semblance of a unified vision for the city itself.

Asmodron

Synbios said:

Elowin said:

Honestly, your description of Hashan has me sitting here saying, 'That sounds awesome!' If only what you speak of, this image of disputed frontiership, this Achaean wild west, if only this was an in-character lawlessness embraced by the community and played with as a theme. Perhaps even supported mechanically. There was a system for capturing territory in Achaea at one time, right? With a bit of tweaking, perhaps a system for gaining territory via political rangling and treaties or embassies, trade, ect rather than PK alone could be introduced. 'Mhaldor has bought 4 rooms for x gold (or credits or w/e) in Hashani territory 'City of Hashan'.'

Unsure if 'lawlessness' would fit with Hashan, given that it was historically the first city to come up with official 'city laws'.

City laws to some perhaps, but just rules of the game for others .

Hhaos

Not pointing fingers or anything but as the guy who lead the raid defense in said raid that keeps getting referenced, 7 people, only two of which that even consider themselves combatants versus as many dragons and them some isn't really a raid, but enough derailing.

Tanris

@Achilles:
No, I mean discussion had concluded. The event in question was the trigger which finalised the agreement.

Vayne

The latest versions of Ourania and Twilight did not in anyway or by any means vie for power. With Twilight gone, certain incompetent players made an attempt power grab that greatly contributed to the fall of Darkness in both Hashan and Ashtan(though they did not have much chance there to begin with.) Ourania and Twilight are thick a thieves. Things settled down rather quickly anyway after one ill-advised election, but the politics in Hashan is part of the charm.

I have a clear vision for the city that has been set up for years now by Twilight and continued by Ourania, changing a culture is a very arduous process and looking back to three years ago I can see the major differences from now to then I would agree, however, that one of the remaining major roadblocks that needs to be cleared is the development of a constant fighting force. A city has to be a place fighters want to be and can freely do their thing, otherwise they will quickly just run off to Ashtan. Thus, why I had been keep on  trying to  start a fights now that I feel we have the potential in skill and man power but now are in need of experience. Again, It is quite difficult keeping fighters in Hashan becuase of this but I give major props to @Hhaos for all the work he has done with our military and the frustration I know he must be venting on his keyboard at home. Likewise at @Mannimar, Qwindor, and @Jacen who help hold things together. I am thankful for Hashan's good attitudes about when we get whooped and their willingness, for the most part, to try to learn group combat dynamics.

I feel like Hashan's connection to the Nihilists is a bit blown out of proportion.

Tvistor

It probably is blown out of proportion, but that is what happens when people raid and end up fighting Ashtani instead.

It will die down with some time since it has stopped or whatnot.

Delphinus

Consider also that as far as I understand, a stated connection to the Nihilists is why Hashan's getting raided at all.

This is your public face.

Vayne

The connection to the Nihilists is that of Ourania not Hashan. I would rather have them raid over a plethora of other things and tried to get them to but this was the only thing, and  a minor thing in my opinion, that got their attention not Twilight, not Occultism or Necromancy in Hashan, or even our members offensively raiding, albeit with Ashtan, of their own accord.

Thaumas

If gentle pushing doesn't work, get a kickstart in the butt. Conflict and not friendship with Ashtan is one of the few things which would help Hashan immensely, for example. Ashtan's relentless hostility towards Shallam was the best thing to ever have happened to it. Besides, why jump the bandwagon? Two cities already are hostile towards *shallam; how would Hashan make a difference from either perspective?

If Hashan wants to be imperialist like Mhaldor or *shallam, it needs a culture which they would consider to be universally correct and try to impose it on the rest of the world. I don't see anything as extroverted like that in Hashan or any of its ideologies. It seems to me that Darkness, which is potentially excellent catalyst in conflict and intrigue, needs a more aggressive policy directed outwards. If colonisation was possible in Achaea, I think that's where Hashan would excel (like British method of colonisation). But Hashan is completely self-sufficient, not threatened, and I see no reason for what it should be aggressive towards anyone.

Axes of conflict seem to me rather limited and exhausted. @Vayne, what meaningful conflict could Hashan as a whole be involved with, if it's not defensive?

Vayne

@Thaumas Again, I agree the premise of the current iteration of Hashan-Shallam conflict is terrible and does not do much to enrich either side, but from my perspective we never asked for conflict as "Chaos-Lite" but that is where we find ourselves nonetheless. The two cities have plenty of reasons and history to be in conflict over but that Shallam chose to be offended over the Ourania-Babel alliance is definitely at the bottom of the barrel.

As far as I can reckon, a major problem with Hashan and reason for this is that Ourania's ties to Babel was the only thing Shallam could recognize as a serious threat from Hashan current. As awesome as Ourania is and how immensely thankful for her personal actions to create interesting roleplay and conflict for Hashan, her and especially her order are just not geared towards making trouble like Twilight's is. There is nothing wrong with that, it is just how it is. The absence of Twilight and the deadness of his order at current leaves Hashan without the antagonist it needs to stirring up intrigue and unrest. Not long ago Twilight used to have his fingers in almost every city.

Hashan has no intention to be imperialistic nor is it aggressive towards anyone, it has long be reactionary in its dealings with other cities, but the idea is this shifts with the context of the day. Hashan is an expert with avoiding conflict when necessary through its shifting intercity dealings one way or another. Furthermore, conflict does not boil down to raiding, I never cease to emphasize that we have means to affect the world beyond raiding which are usually more effective than the ceaseless, goalless "wars" that no one ever really loses. Twilight turns plays groups against each other, often causing conflicts or using them for his own ends without many even realizing it, until it is too late. On a more city level, many people reference as the merchant city. Although, I do not like to define us as the such, I am quite proud of our industrious marketplace and desire to see it stay the premiere economy in the game.

Nonetheless, I have slowly been building up towards the ability to maintain a PVP conflict within Hashan. Culture came first, I needed a place that could retain people, and I believe we are just about there. Once we have a base to work with we need to start having raids and defenses to gain that experience and build camaraderie among our combatants. This is a long and hard road and the main problem Hashan has with getting the exposure to combat it needs is no conflict with Hashan ever seems to last more than a week.

 

Tanris

Tbh, this might sound overly harsh but if Shallam didn't want Nihilists defending Hashan, they should've not chose to jump on the one possible issue that was guaranteed to get Nihilists involved. Previous to this all of the Nihilist combatants (that really is an all, not a mostly too) were enemied to Hashan.

There are numerous things just on the surface that should set good in opposition to Hashan (harbouring necromancy/occultism are the two obvious things). Publicly saying that you're going after them for a connection to an organisation, then expecting that organisation to sit back and twiddle there thumbs is as stupid when you're doing it as it was when Ashtani were crying over Shallamese defending Cyrene when we raided them for defending Shallam.

Asmodron

Vayne said:

Nonetheless, I have slowly been building up towards the ability to maintain a PVP conflict within Hashan. Culture came first, I needed a place that could retain people, and I believe we are just about there. Once we have a base to work with we need to start having raids and defenses to gain that experience and build camaraderie among our combatants. This is a long and hard road and the main problem Hashan has with getting the exposure to combat it needs is no conflict with Hashan ever seems to last more than a week.

I recall days when I was the only member of Hashan that would raid a city (Shallam at the time, with an Ashtan/Mhaldor group of course) and I would attempt to urge others to get into it. Even with raiding Shallam issues got started, from shallamese contacting Asmo's house officials to the Seneschal concerning my actions and it reflecting upon the city. I was of course told by Laytron (the seneschal at the time) to continue as I wish, just not exceed the limit, but I still had several others badger me about it and state that any Shallamese raids on the city were a byproduct of my offenses upon it.

There were even Hashani members (Blacklotus at the time) that choose to defend Shallam..which was extremely confusing. Apparently the laws had nothing against it however citizens were not allowed to harm one another...and so we just looked like a joke, not to mention our legal system flawed. It goes both ways however, as when Bleak was a citizen he would enjoy raiding Mhaldor, a city that had good standing with Hashan at the  time. Sadly once again there were no laws against it as there was no official alliance, however as per the Mhaldor treaty he was not allowed to assault them within the premise of Hashan or Mhaldor, only outside it....do you see how upside-down this all looks? Bleak knew the rules and how to exploit them to get what he wants, which was sabotage Mhaldor relations with Hashan, and as per the rules he had the full right to do so.

I was one of the only few active defenders and combatants of Hashan as well, other prominent defenders that come to mind at the time being Ruth, Branwen, Penwize,  Pontus, Chani, and Bleak. There were days when I would only see myself and Branwen defending..when 10+ other citizens were awake, was very depressing. Only recently (around a month ago) I had the same experience happen when Cain was attempting to defile a shrine in Hashan and I was the only one (with no  system at that >.>) that attempted to thwart him, after calling on CT for assistance several times, I eventually got 2 out of the dozen awake citizens to assist me.

It will take alot of change and pushing to get Hashan to be more offensive in nature, it seems passivity has been built in. I am not sure exactly how to go about it, since  you cant entirely -force- the citizens to learn and take part in defense like Mhaldor, but who knows.

Ruth

Hashani shop wares are expensive :C When I could, I would flutter over to Ashtan to purchase stuff instead.

Sena

Ruth said:

Hashani shop wares are expensive :C When I could, I would flutter over to Ashtan to purchase stuff instead.

I usually find the cheapest supplies (enchantments and cures and such) in Ashtan, and the best selection of clothes and other non-functional things in Hashan.

Vayne

@Asmodron Hashan is not like that anymore, we have a good group of people from all four houses who defend and even have sanctioned a few raids before Bal'met crashed the party. I guess you don't have to worry about Cain anymore, perhaps in a different way, I guess. Laytron was Seneschal 3 years ago, Ruth, Penwize, and Bleak have not been around in years either. I'm sorry to say that all I noticed you contribute to the city since you returned has been the annoying sort of CT tells and public behavior which we are so often mocked for.

Yes the sigils get pretty expensive.

Asmodron

Vayne said:

@Asmodron Hashan is not like that anymore, we have a good group of people from all four houses who defend and even have sanctioned a few raids before Bal'met crashed the party. I guess you don't have to worry about Cain anymore, perhaps in a different way, I guess. Laytron was Seneschal 3 years ago, Ruth, Penwize, and Bleak have not been around in years either. I'm sorry to say that all I noticed you contribute to the city since you returned has been the annoying sort of CT tells and public behavior which we are so often mocked for.

Yes the sigils get pretty expensive.

Truth be told when I first came back I had tossed my RP out the window and just returned to watch the event and probably  go back into dormancy afterwards. And so I was very carefree and silly seeing no need to use Asmo to be serious anymore (having given up on that with Hashan), this isnt unusual actually as other older citizens were also generally bored and just saying little quips here and there.

However as I said it was barely a month ago when few even wanted to defend. Even before I left I recall raids where it was 4-5 hashani defending and we were being lead by Ashtani citizens .

Jiraishin

Ruth said:

Hashani shop wares are expensive :C When I could, I would flutter over to Ashtan to purchase stuff instead.

Really? Some of my fondest post-dormancy memories of Hashan involve bags of stasis for 3k and under.

Mannimar

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The Shaman's Rattle has some of the cheapest alchemical cures I have seen sold in any city shop!!

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Asmodron, in my opinion I'm not much of a combatant, but I have personally raided Shallam with a few Hashani and Ashtani citizens (This was, at the time, independent of any city support and solely our personal actions). There were several citizens that hassled us for committing to any such conflict with Shallam, and even after we mutually declared hostilities there were citizens who threw many a fit about us responding any other way than "Thank you, sir. May I have another?". Even though the MinWar of the time and others that held notable city/house positions were raiding they barely responded to anything we did. Overall, the citizens have been supportive and helpful when asked to aide the city in some form or another

Though, after we declared our hostilities with Shallam we had a fairly consistent back and forth (Hashan's performance was not even close to breath taking), we had a great showing for defence and a good number of willing raiders. Because of this we improved, ever so slightly, and managed to destroy our first room in a sanctioned raid. I hope that stunned a few of you Hashan bashers when it happened. 

All of this is from my recent and minute experience in Achaea. Hashan has its flaws, it has its charms, but overall, we are improving.

ETA: The individual you are talking about set up the current foundation of the Hashan Legion as MinWar and while he was no longer Hashan was a member of the Lotus at the time and working towards ally status. While I did not support his leading of the party there is little that can be done when the majority of PT is following the lead of the individual in question. (I did say we had flaws)

Wattsee

I'm actually surprised that the Ithmia didn't catch fire and let Hashan blaze in glory. Considering all the across-the-board changes and casual deletion of things, Hashan seemed to have a crosshair centered at Crossroads forever. I'm glad it didn't burn to the ground, for purely selfish reasons, but I believe it's because of the hard work on many fronts and from many players that spared Hashan from a conflagration ending.

Jacen

I don't think a lot of people understand why Shallam was destroyed, and are thinking "Shallam was destroyed, why wasn't LOLHashan destroyed?" 

Shallam was destroyed because the citizens of Shallam were very unhappy with the current government structure. Radical change in Shallam has been discussed and sought for a long time now. Hashan's citizens do not desire such radical change, nor is it needed. Hashan's government structure is fine. What we need is a change in the mindset of the citizens, to move away from neutrality and into Darkness. This is, as states previously, happening gradually. I admit I've fought it myself, but I know now that its a needed change. @Vayne has been doing a great job, but an active @Twilight would change Hashan overnight. 

Not sure where @Asmodron's defense complaints are coming from. Always got a decent turnout when we were raided in my stint as MinWar, The only time we didn't is when a single serpent would enter just to fool around, which isn't a big deal anyways.

Salvar

Jacen said:

I don't think a lot of people understand why Shallam was destroyed, and are thinking "Shallam was destroyed, why wasn't LOLHashan destroyed?" 

Shallam was destroyed because the citizens of Shallam were very unhappy with the current government structure. Radical change in Shallam has been discussed and sought for a long time now. Hashan's citizens do not desire such radical change, nor is it needed. Hashan's government structure is fine. What we need is a change in the mindset of the citizens, to move away from neutrality and into Darkness. This is, as states previously, happening gradually. I admit I've fought it myself, but I know now that its a needed change. @Vayne has been doing a great job, but an active @Twilight would change Hashan overnight. 

Not sure where @Asmodron's defense complaints are coming from. Always got a decent turnout when we were raided in my stint as MinWar, The only time we didn't is when a single serpent would enter just to fool around, which isn't a big deal anyways.

Yes @Vayne has done an excellent job. But let's not forget @Ourania. @Twilight was instrumental, as were many Hashani players, in getting the identity ball rolling and changing and away from the milquetoast place it was wallowing .  @Twilight disappeared and like Vayne says above somewhere, His order went #theydidwhatnow?  and the Crown wobbled and faltered a bit. But, into the sucking void, we got a matron who has poured a lot of effort into the city.  I highly doubt any one individual, divine or mortal, is going to turn around Hashan overnight. But, let's remember that we can affect just as much change but actually doing something together. I bet if we all get creative and work with our Matron, we'll have the city we want instead of #dreamingaboutit here. 

Jacen

Wasn't hating on Ourania, she's been doing a great job. Twilight just has more respect from certain circles in Hashan... definitely from the Lotus. Ourania and Twilight together would just... rock. Plain and simple.

Yen

Vayne said:

 A city has to be a place fighters want to be and can freely do their thing, otherwise they will quickly just run off to Ashtan. Thus, why I had been keep on  trying to start a fights now that I feel we have the potential in skill and man power but now are in need of experience. 

Maybe it's me, but your goals seem rather incompatible with one another.  For instance, the episode with Aurora's statue was I suppose an attempt to sow further discord between the refugees and Mhaldor.  But given the overt conflict between our factions, the idea that you would suddenly warn us of Evil's intentions out of the goodness of your dark heart was so ridiculous that none of us took it seriously.

Vayne

Yen said:

Vayne said:

 A city has to be a place fighters want to be and can freely do their thing, otherwise they will quickly just run off to Ashtan. Thus, why I had been keep on  trying to start a fights now that I feel we have the potential in skill and man power but now are in need of experience. 

Maybe it's me, but your goals seem rather incompatible with one another.  For instance, the episode with Aurora's statue was I suppose an attempt to sow further discord between the refugees and Mhaldor.  But given the overt conflict between our factions, the idea that you would suddenly warn us of Evil's intentions out of the goodness of your dark heart was so ridiculous that none of us took it seriously.

You are assuming it was me who did it. Also, Vayne is a pretty nice guy if you get to know him! :P

Hhaos

There are a lot of us who are breaking our backs in certain ways. Jacen, Alim, Mannimar, and Myself have really been pushing to get a bit more martial and to get people interested. I even joined a house again after I said very OOCly that I never would, just to get the true young ones interested in the defense manners. It will be a long road, but Hashan -IS- getting better, my main complaint now is only that when people do defend they defend but damn they do not listen which has caused me to even QQ in the middle of a Raid, The city as a whole has a lot of potential but seriously, take it seriously, and please no more raiding with 11 people with over a 50/50 ratio of dragon to others, 4 seconds at 9k health lifespan is...for a lack of better words, Crazy and if I didn't love the fighting and was just fulfilling a role I would of probably been very turned off at the idea at this.

tl;dr 

If others outside would give Hashan a chance, those of us working to get things better in small ways would be able to support the leap and actually establish something more fleshed out then Ourania and Babel sitting in a tree. Give Hashan a chance, we may just surprise you

Learyn

@Cinya and @Vayne, I actually had fun with the whole statue thing and investigating it, getting to drop in info from 'sources' and the like. There was a bit more happening behind the scenes about it, I promise, than was noticed while you were on the Isle. I could have wished for Aktillum to be treating it a bit less like a joke IC, but that was how it went and maybe some of our next interactions will be better. I enjoyed the roleplay aspect of that, really. With Ashtan, I haven't had a chance to really roleplay beyond a few snide comments (or politely snide ones on Manifest's part).  I've had some small rp with Antidas, though nothing serious.

So thank you, very much for it. It was a nice way (for me, the player) to have some fun myself and get into some roleplay between us. I'm usually out and about or around, so feel free to throw some rp my way as long as it's not "ass-kick then rp".

Texel

I hate IC-ish forums. You guys are stressing me out.

Tarkanian

Texel said:

I hate IC-ish forums. You guys are stressing me out.

Don't read, don't post?

Synbios

Texel said:

I hate IC-ish forums. You guys are stressing me out.

One time, I was diagnosed with a fatal case of high blood pressure. The doctors said that I only had exactly ten seconds to live(and they had the nerve to tell me nine seconds after they finished calculating it). Then one of them, struck by an flash of inspiration(or a divine zap, take your pick), quickly wrote a prescription for me(he used really fast shorthand, taking only .54 milliseconds to write it) to post at least one post on the Achaea forums a day for five days. I immediately used the remaining 41 nanoseconds of my life to write this post, and instantaneously, my blood pressure levels dropped to survivable levels. 

I'm on my second day of my prescription and already, I'm considered 'fit for work'. Bless you, Achaea forums.

Asmodron

A problem with Darkness is the general paranoia it sows. People will start to distrust one another as they attempt their little behind-the-scenes schemes, each one believing they have the best interests of Hashan at heart. Take the example of Aurora's statue for example, from what I understand there was the discussions of removing it (?) however then @Vayne informed Refugees about Mhaldor seeking to destroy it? The problem with Darkness is unless everyone is on board with it and knows the plan, the most I see it doing in a city-state is causing mistrust and breed more tensions.

Actually now that I think about it..that is probably why Hashan has been in the divided state it is for so long.