Third Black Wave: Electric Boogaloo

Atalkez

Fair, I agree. If we’re wrong we should wear that Scarlett letter.

Kiet

Talian said:

Kiet said:

Talian said:

Kiet said:

That's one thing I am concerned about/hope for, actually. The cities that allied with the Tsol'teth, assuming the Tsol'teth are driven back by force, should face actual consequences for it.

I don't mean like grief them out of the game or delete them (necessarily...) but at least something in a room desc to remind them they were seen as traitors to the rest of the continent or w/e.

Why? If they are/were keeping with the RP of their org why should they be punished or diminished for it?

?? This isn't an OOC punishment, seeing some kind of blown up room in a desc isn't exactly gonna do anything to you OOC. Ashtan had a historic room of theirs deleted for less. ICly, they betrayed what is essentially the rest of the world, why wouldn't they have an IC punishment? Obviously that might be up to the players to administer but I'd hope there'd be admin support for it.

OOC? I'm not talking OOC. I'm talking why should they have a room blown up, or anything detrimental because the IC perception of the world is they betrayed them? Doesn't the world think that of Mhaldor on a daily basis? I personally think they should be rewarded for going out on a limb and trying something new versus being the next in line to be the "hero" saving the world.

Only people who don't really understand Mhaldor's ideology believe that, though. It's hard to argue (if this turns into world war tsol'teth, as I said, and these are very specific ifs) that allying yourself with the alien race trying to destroy everyone else is gonna be quite the same as "I just wanna rule the continent guys." For one thing, it's the difference between your sibling punching you and some stranger on the street.

Your argument is showing a rather strange lack of ic/ooc division though. You want to reward them for trying something new, but that's an entirely ooc consideration. Unless you actually look at this from an IC perspective, of course you're going to disagree immediately.

Iloisee

Talian said:

Kiet said:

Talian said:

Kiet said:

That's one thing I am concerned about/hope for, actually. The cities that allied with the Tsol'teth, assuming the Tsol'teth are driven back by force, should face actual consequences for it.

I don't mean like grief them out of the game or delete them (necessarily...) but at least something in a room desc to remind them they were seen as traitors to the rest of the continent or w/e.

Why? If they are/were keeping with the RP of their org why should they be punished or diminished for it?

?? This isn't an OOC punishment, seeing some kind of blown up room in a desc isn't exactly gonna do anything to you OOC. Ashtan had a historic room of theirs deleted for less. ICly, they betrayed what is essentially the rest of the world, why wouldn't they have an IC punishment? Obviously that might be up to the players to administer but I'd hope there'd be admin support for it.

OOC? I'm not talking OOC. I'm talking why should they have a room blown up, or anything detrimental because the IC perception of the world is they betrayed them? Doesn't the world think that of Mhaldor on a daily basis? I personally think they should be rewarded for going out on a limb and trying something new versus being the next in line to be the "hero" saving the world.

You are suggesting rewarding an OOC decision (trying something new) with IC material. IC, they weren't just trying something new. They were actively making a decision that was perceived by the rest of the world as traitorous in light of their aggression on Cyrene and opposition to all cities other than those allied. If the enemies of the Tsol'teth drive them out ("win") then yes, admin support for punishing the "traitors" would be great. Because ICly we would have won the war against them and their allies.

Not to mention their OOC decision has netted them IC rewards already for the IC consequence of their alliance.

Asmodron

Kiet said:

That's one thing I am concerned about/hope for, actually. The cities that allied with the Tsol'teth, assuming the Tsol'teth are driven back by force, should face actual consequences for it.

I don't mean like grief them out of the game or delete them (necessarily...) but at least something in a room desc to remind them they were seen as traitors to the rest of the continent or w/e.

I'm recalling Bal'met all of a sudden....

Skye

The difference between Bal'met and Tsol'teth is that the decision to ally with Bal'met was Shaitan+Apples (or just the iniquity league whatevs). That was an administrative arrangement. And Mhaldor paid for it. Shit got ripped up, and they were alone. No playershell Tsol'teth to unleash the OP, no special powers. And the culture of the city is that ICly, they have no say except to QQ the city.

The decision to ally with the Tsol'teth was by and large a player fueled decision to take their RP in that particular direction. For example,  Deuc didn't tell them to do it, but he didn't say "no" either. He only (by an outsider observation) gave his endorsement after the fact.

Kiet

Mhaldor lost Keresis pretty specifically because of that, though I mean you wouldn't see me complain if there was some statue of a big wormy boy in Mhaldor either. We also lost the brothel (rip).

That said if Hashan wants to sacrifice one of their gods for it I'll take it.

Atalkez

Well, kind of. Deuc has dropped small hints about the TT for a while, but no never outright said they’re on our side or vice verse.

I love the direction myself, really pushes the narrative that Targ has been really building (as tough as it has been) that anything is on the table if the end goal is advancing Good

Skye

One thing I feel is that there is a tacit, if somewhat meta, understanding between players/characters. If a theological city was forced/guided by their patron who orders a certain course of action, then it becomes an ideological god vs god issue. And that is pretty much Bison Tuesday for Sapience.

If the decision is clearly made by the mortal leadership to knowingly submit/Consort with an alien force that has historically been bad news for the world, then that community has performed an act of betrayal towards Sapient kind. It is a people vs people issue. There's no god to hide behind for that sort of behavior, even if said god later belatedly chooses to endorse it with favours.

Jiraishin

Asmodron said:

Kiet said:

That's one thing I am concerned about/hope for, actually. The cities that allied with the Tsol'teth, assuming the Tsol'teth are driven back by force, should face actual consequences for it.

I don't mean like grief them out of the game or delete them (necessarily...) but at least something in a room desc to remind them they were seen as traitors to the rest of the continent or w/e.

I'm recalling Bal'met all of a sudden....

The Bal'met event permanently destroyed Mhaldor's bar. What more punishment do they need?

RIP Naga shots and ivory mugs of kawhe.

Taryius

Mhaldor's decision to side with Bal'met and contribute to everything he destroyed is also permanently marked in our city accolades. I would also love a big wormy boi statue. (pls).

Jinos

I personally think there will be no real winners in this ordeal. We'll all lose something in the end.

It has definitely changed the world dynamic as far as relations go. And it will continue to have narrative reprecussions in the game for years to come.

Shub

There is some precedent for 'punishing' IC decisions like these. Mhaldor's treatment of the water conduit affects their ability to gain water lord. The feedback on that result feels similar to the discussion happening in here. I'd be mildly irritated if I had to eat a mechanical handicap of some sort, but I wouldn't consider it unfair.

None of my predictions on this event so far have been accurate, but for what its worth I don't see the tsol'teth going back in their jar this time, and I doubt Tlalaiad is going anywhere either.

Synthus

Atalkez said:

You don’t even know the TT are the actual bad guys yet. Inb4 Slith/Pazuzu plot thickening and TT are actually on our side.

*Glances at Tsol'teth occupied Cyrene*

Oh yeah, seems like a totally friendly bunch.

Jiraishin

Synthus said:

Atalkez said:

You don’t even know the TT are the actual bad guys yet. Inb4 Slith/Pazuzu plot thickening and TT are actually on our side.

*Glances at Tsol'teth occupied Cyrene*

Oh yeah, seems like a totally friendly bunch.

As opposed to the rest of us, who chop people's heads off and put them on pikes, then offer the headless corpses to our gods. 

Atalkez

Synthus said:

Atalkez said:

You don’t even know the TT are the actual bad guys yet. Inb4 Slith/Pazuzu plot thickening and TT are actually on our side.

*Glances at Tsol'teth occupied Cyrene*

Oh yeah, seems like a totally friendly bunch.

As if Ashtan doesn’t purport the end of existence as we know it (whether Penwize agrees or not), or Mhaldor doesn’t want to make slaves of everyone.

Lesser evils are a thing.

Jinos

I doubt anyone is going to see a foreign military force that sieged their homeland as anything but the bad guys... apart from a few sympathizers at least. 

Cooper

Atalkez said:

Synthus said:

Atalkez said:

You don’t even know the TT are the actual bad guys yet. Inb4 Slith/Pazuzu plot thickening and TT are actually on our side.

*Glances at Tsol'teth occupied Cyrene*

Oh yeah, seems like a totally friendly bunch.

As if Ashtan doesn’t purport the end of existence as we know it (whether Penwize agrees or not), or Mhaldor doesn’t want to make slaves of everyone.

Lesser evils are a thing.

Mhaldor is the lesser evil compared to the Tsol'teth tho. 

Atalkez

Cooper said:

Atalkez said:

Synthus said:

Atalkez said:

You don’t even know the TT are the actual bad guys yet. Inb4 Slith/Pazuzu plot thickening and TT are actually on our side.

*Glances at Tsol'teth occupied Cyrene*

Oh yeah, seems like a totally friendly bunch.

As if Ashtan doesn’t purport the end of existence as we know it (whether Penwize agrees or not), or Mhaldor doesn’t want to make slaves of everyone.

Lesser evils are a thing.

Mhaldor is the lesser evil compared to the Tsol'teth tho. 

Not in the eyes of Targossas

[Deleted User]

I thought Targossas were the good guys, though?

Lenn

Obviously that means the tsol'teth are also good guys.

Jiraishin

Pyori said:

I thought Targossas were the good guys, though?

Targ are the Good guys. They see themselves as acting for the good of the universe, and that 'greater good' doesn't always line up with the actions of conventional RL morality.

[Deleted User]

Jiraishin said:

Targ are the Good guys. They see themselves as acting for the good of the universe, and that 'greater good' doesn't always line up with the actions of conventional RL morality.

/r/whoosh

lrn2meme

Adrik

Iloisee said:

Talian said:

Kiet said:

Talian said:

Kiet said:

That's one thing I am concerned about/hope for, actually. The cities that allied with the Tsol'teth, assuming the Tsol'teth are driven back by force, should face actual consequences for it.

I don't mean like grief them out of the game or delete them (necessarily...) but at least something in a room desc to remind them they were seen as traitors to the rest of the continent or w/e.

Why? If they are/were keeping with the RP of their org why should they be punished or diminished for it?

?? This isn't an OOC punishment, seeing some kind of blown up room in a desc isn't exactly gonna do anything to you OOC. Ashtan had a historic room of theirs deleted for less. ICly, they betrayed what is essentially the rest of the world, why wouldn't they have an IC punishment? Obviously that might be up to the players to administer but I'd hope there'd be admin support for it.

OOC? I'm not talking OOC. I'm talking why should they have a room blown up, or anything detrimental because the IC perception of the world is they betrayed them? Doesn't the world think that of Mhaldor on a daily basis? I personally think they should be rewarded for going out on a limb and trying something new versus being the next in line to be the "hero" saving the world.

You are suggesting rewarding an OOC decision (trying something new) with IC material. IC, they weren't just trying something new. They were actively making a decision that was perceived by the rest of the world as traitorous in light of their aggression on Cyrene and opposition to all cities other than those allied. If the enemies of the Tsol'teth drive them out ("win") then yes, admin support for punishing the "traitors" would be great. Because ICly we would have won the war against them and their allies.

Not to mention their OOC decision has netted them IC rewards already for the IC consequence of their alliance.

Wait. Targ got IC rewards? News to me.

Lenn

To be honest, Targossas siding with the tsol'teth makes a lot more sense than siding with Ashtan, as a pure outsider.

Mhaldor's a different story, but as far as I'm aware, they haven't offered any sort of alliances anyway.

Jinos

@Adrik

I don't know if not having to worry about the tide permeating Targossas and its allied villages counts as a reward, but it's some benefit that follows allying with the tsol'teth.

Shub

the Tlala favor was pretty friggin sweet too, never felt so strong

Telendrieth

Pyori said:

I thought Targossas were the good guys, though?

In as much as space marines are the "good guys". Targ has very defined versions of what is considered Good by them and pretty much everything that isn't that is what they are opposing. Most people are used to a wider grey area in fantasy, but since Targ's conception there has been a noticeably smaller grey area in their teachings, which is why my head usually correlates them to space marines fighting for the Divine. 

Torinn

Space marines is a very apt comparison.  Blood for the bloodswarm!

Doriel

                                                                               

A baby sea turtle perishes, asphyxiated by the tendrils of the surging tide.

Turns out the tide is just a bunch of plastic straws

Torrent

The only thing I really wish out of this event is not the unity idea, or rather all embrace the Tsol'teth. It's good that there are opposing sides with one side allying with another side against in my personal opinion. With different benefits and disadvantages from each.