Ship trading

Taryius

You left out what I assume is the best part.

- 2018/12/04 00:46:32 - Its incubation complete, a sea cucumber explodes from the intestines of Jinsun, garnishing the oceans with his blood.

Melodie

While I get the idea, I think approaching Neraeos IC about this wasn't ever going to go in your favor.

Penwize

Yeah that was borderline metagamey, and filled with a bunch of weird metagamey assumptions.  That sort of sweeping change is best put through the golden dais (here) or the IG idea system, not uh ... an IC conversation with a God (who may not even be a developer, but an IC Role).

Dupre

Even Gods have slow days apparently

Lenn

I don't mean that the idea of sailing is inherently boring, just that there are too many problems in the details to enjoy it as-is.

Even something like @Accipiter's idea would make it a lot more bearable. I'm not interested in fishing, it's balanced around people scripting the challenge away, and I'm not so fond of automation, so I only like trading, but trade deals really aren't fun.

Jinsun

For clarification, the conversation started after he killed me. I was bored and have done a ton talking here and in emails about these changes. It may seem metagamy to you, but Jin has always been "whatever gets people sailing." I expected to be shot down, but I had the opportunity and I took it. I figure if it was too much, we'd not have had so long of a back and forth without a second zap. Have had gods fix stuff or offer solutions based on in game discussions because it's more generic than the usual emailing back and forth.

Siduri

A lot of us are limiting ourselves over fraternisation laws (which have been made even stricter in Targossas lately). It's an aspect I detest personally, but since it's in place and none of us are above it, I don't think we can actually exempt your friends from it either if they are in an organisation that does so. I would say, for example, if you were a rogue, non-occultist Pirate, a Targossian who is not in the Celestial Targossian Navy or the Mariners Guild would be a-ok to hang out with you.

I however agree that there's a margin between this and harrasment.

As for the Navy cooperation accusation, I can see your point of view, but you also need to understand that if we happen to have a crew to fight, and know there's a pirate ship out there, we can't just say "Let them handle it". First, because the opportunities to do military sorties are so rare, and second, because very often we're just helping a civilian ship.

e.g. That time you attacked Artanis on Kaiu's personal ship, and yeah, of course we're going to go save Kaiu's butt because we all love her. Plus, Targossas isn't hostile with Eleusis.

However, I do not want to see the end of Piracy, personally. I'd rather the trades be made more attractive, and more reasons to sail given. If necessary, some cost reduction granted. Make the sea attractive, and you give Pirates prey. And if you give Pirates prey, you also give the Navies Prey to chase.

Tahquil

Props to Neraeos for being able to stay IC while going "Not my area, dude. I ain't got no say in it."

Jinsun

It's always the excuse of "of course there's an RP reason for us to do it." Yeah and there are RP reasons for Mhaldor, Hashan, and Ashtan to form a super alliance and steamroll Targossas. None of us like you from an RP standpoint, but it'd also be incredibly shitty and strained. Like I said decreased costs may help, but I'd encourage any of you with alts to try being a pirate and see how much hate you get. I guarantee you it is far and beyond what you are thinking.

As for fraternization laws, Targ isn't really where I'm going with this. Cyrene wrote a new law when they saw me hanging out with a friend, not sailing or pirating together. I've said it before, I've never seen it applied to anyone else, and it's used pretty exclusively to prevent me and long time friends that predated the new law from doing mundane things like sampling together. Cyrene is a neutral city as RP. I'm not taking them sailing not trying to convert them to pirates. It's just a targeted chance to again bring the ships stuff to mainland and make it more frustrating to be a pirate. Do all of these things have a loose RP justification? Sure. Is it above and beyond where we go against enemies in other scenarios? Oh yes definitely.

Just because you can justify something in game doesn't make it a good idea or healthy for our player base.

Cooper

Makes me giggle when people bitch about not being able to be "friends" with people in orgs they're enemied to. It's an rp game, and it isn't good rp to be friends with people that hurt your orgs.

Pythagoras

@Jinsun Thank you for speaking with Lord Neraeos. I know many may argue against piracy, but what thrill would the sea be without its storms? As you eloquently said,  the current status quo hurts all of us. Whatever means it takes to have these issues heard ,perhaps going through the Golden Dais, count me in.

Laedha

Siduri said:

As for the Navy cooperation accusation, I can see your point of view, but you also need to understand that if we happen to have a crew to fight, and know there's a pirate ship out there, we can't just say "Let them handle it". First, because the opportunities to do military sorties are so rare, and second, because very often we're just helping a civilian ship....

However, I do not want to see the end of Piracy, personally. I'd rather the trades be made more attractive, and more reasons to sail given. If necessary, some cost reduction granted. Make the sea attractive, and you give Pirates prey. And if you give Pirates prey, you also give the Navies Prey to chase.

This.

Jarrod

Random points:

1) Seamonster zones never changed to have a chance of higher mobs. That was always in the game, Skye and I were seeing Leviathans in Sapphire Sea from system implementation.

2) Attacking other vessels on the sea is as close to straight up theft that you can get in the game, currently. Likening this back to the old days of 7 RL days where everyone agreed to wreck thieves, having Navies cooperate to sink hostile ships isn't exactly a stretch.

3) It's relatively safe to assume most people don't sail 'optimally' for ship trades. People invest far less time ship trading than they do bashing, on average. It's hard to compare the value of a seldom done activity without artefact investment to something that people do all the time, and sometimes invest thousands in.

Laedha

Jarrod said:

Random points:

1) Seamonster zones never changed to have a chance of higher mobs. That was always in the game, Skye and I were seeing Leviathans in Sapphire Sea from system implementation.

Yes leviathans have always popped in Sapphire Sea but I think the chance of drawing one are higher now. That seemed to happen at the same time Kashari raiders started showing up in the Tapoa zone, which is 100% a recent change and one I really like. 

Klendathu

1. The frequency of the higher level seamonsters appearing has increased noticeably in recent weeks. It's entirely possible that there was always a chance for a Kashari raider to appear off Tapoa, but in over 2000 kills, I saw none. In one session last week, three of the ten I spawned were Kashari raiders.

2. I disagree. PLUNDERING another ship is theft, attacking a ship is nearer to PK.

3. Regardless, if your main driver is revenue, and you can make more per hour doing something other than ship trading, why would you do a ship trade?

Laedha

@Klendathu #2 sinking a ship even without plundering is still as close to old-style theft as you can get even if that's not the intent. In PK all you can really lose is a little bit of xp. Sinking costs stupidly high amounts of gold. I think that's the root of the problem, sinking is too expensive so people avoid conflict and get oocly hostile about it. 

Jinsun

I legitimately plunder with the intent of maxing our swashies. I've only made a noticeable amount of anything one time and the poor person had like 2 million in the strongbox and I plundered like 250k or something crazy. I returned half of it cause it was just a stupid haul.

Pythagoras

Who carries 2 million in their strongbox?!

Jinsun

Was someone doing a short redocking as I was coming in.

Dupre

And you wonder why people aren't gung-ho to cooperate with you

Jinsun

Dupre said:

And you wonder why people aren't gung-ho to cooperate with you

They got supremely unlucky and I gave them half of it back? Who are you and why do you have such a shitty attitude?

Dupre

As someone who has been targeted by you during a redock I think it is safe to say being jumped on a redock is not "unlucky" but a guarantee if you are nearby and alert lol

Jinsun

It is insanely easy not to be sunk during a redock. If you use your ship as more than a place to avoid people you probably have the skill to avoid it.

Dupre

You didn't sink me, and not speaking personally but most people are going to have it out for you the second you act aggressively on them, not even sinking necessarily

When you make so many enemies of people, doubtful you can rally the support and cooperation later on to be an institution for change

Laedha

Dupre said:

You didn't sink me, and not speaking personally but most people are going to have it out for you the second you act aggressively on them, not even sinking necessarily

When you make so many enemies of people, doubtful you can rally the support and cooperation later on to be an institution for change

I've built a huge chunk of my RP around being a pirate hunter. @Jinsun has sunk me before and most of my in game family (including both of Laedha's kids when they were very new sailors). That makes our characters enemies but has nothing to do with the forums. You're demonstrating exactly why it's such a lopsided conflict; people who play villains get extreme ooc hate because people don't like having their text gold stolen. 

Jinsun

Laedha said:

Dupre said:

You didn't sink me, and not speaking personally but most people are going to have it out for you the second you act aggressively on them, not even sinking necessarily

When you make so many enemies of people, doubtful you can rally the support and cooperation later on to be an institution for change

I've built a huge chunk of my RP around being a pirate hunter. @Jinsun has sunk me before and most of my in game family (including both of Laedha's kids when they were very new sailors). That makes our characters enemies but has nothing to do with the forums. You're demonstrating exactly why it's such a lopsided conflict; people who play villains get extreme ooc hate because people don't like having their text gold stolen. 

Exactly. Thank you.

also I have plenty of "enemies" in this thread who see a need for change and some have been helpful behind the scenes to submit changes and lend support.

Cooper

I want to sail, I think it is fun.

I think ship combat is terrible, and I don't want to participate in it.

People who just attack anyone they see make sailing not fun and a chore for those who just want to sail and bash on islands.

Just because it is your RP doesn't mean it isn't asshole behavior, and doesn't mean it adds something positive to the game.

I 100% guarantee that more people would sail and use ships if pirating wasn't a thing. 

Jinsun

Cooper said:

I want to sail, I think it is fun.

I think ship combat is terrible, and I don't want to participate in it.

People who just attack anyone they see make sailing not fun and a chore for those who just want to sail and bash on islands.

Just because it is your RP doesn't mean it isn't asshole behavior, and doesn't mean it adds something positive to the game.

I 100% guarantee that more people would sail and use ships if pirating wasn't a thing. 

I think you mean if ship combat wasn't a thing. I don't attack everyone I see. Far from it, I maybe attack 60% of people that I see that aren't Ashtani or aren't customers of the Pirates. 

What you're not getting is having an org like the pirates to be the bad guy is a good thing. Why?

We have well known ships with specific flags that are easy to spot.

If we catch you, we'll offer you to it a ransom.

You can pay us a pretty small amount at any time not to be sank.

Consider the alternative: 

Ship combat still exisfs

 No centralized enemy to target

no distinguishing flag or ships

No incentive not to sink you (I.e. payment)

Getting rid of POM won't stop people sinking ships, it will just give us less reasons to RP and be nice about it.

Dupre

Laedha said:

people who play villains get extreme ooc hate because people don't like having their text gold stolen. 

To which he responds with what?

Hissy fits on ooc forums and throwing ooc issues around claiming harassment like there's no tomorrow. Yeah that's the shining paragon of level headedness and maturity we want trying to brainstorm a major overhaul?

Plenty of achaea's other villains have received far less ooc hate because they conduct themselves with -some- tact at least

Aegoth

I think everyone is forgetting that the seas are considered treacherous, so it's free/open PK, just like UW and Annwyn (HELP PK  guideline 7). I don't get the bickering and bitching about "random ship ganks"... no one bitches when they get stomped in Annwyn

This doesn't mean that seafaring is good, just that people need to stop their fucking tears