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Ship trading

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  • GreysGreys Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    @Klendathu We did try to find ways of describing ways for ramming for ship combat when we last had open forums on the subject.
  • LaedhaLaedha Member Posts: 140 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Thanks @Klendathu
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    April to September. Weapon ammo and ship ammo now both called Weapon ammo ;)

    Reward 4 5 6 7 8 9 Grand Total
    10 bound credits



    1
    1
    100000gp
    1 4 1 1 2 9
    200000gp
    1
    1

    2
    25 bound credits 1
    3 1 2
    7
    5 bound credits 3 1

    4
    8
    65000gp 3 2 4 3 4 4 20
    75000gp 3 3
    4 3 3 16
    a birdcage covered in a white cloth 1 3 1
    1 3 9
    barrel of rum 8 1 3 8 5 7 32
    Black finned flare 5
    2 1 1 2 11
    Crew experience 6 14 11 11 13 16 71
    Crew morale 4 10 8 7 8 4 41
    Golden Gryphon 5 4 2 4 4 3 22
    great Notic amulet 2 2 3 2 1 1 11
    Hollowed Skull 3 4 2 3 1
    13
    missed
    4



    4
    Reticulated giraffe
    1
    1
    1 3
    Seaworn pair of stone dice 1 1 1
    2
    5
    Striking sea captain's hat 4 3 3 4 2 6 22
    Unmarked wooden crate 3
    2 2

    7
    Weapon ammunition 4 7 10 9 9 4 43
    Wicker basket containing a ginger kitten 4
    1

    4 9
    Grand Total 60 62 60 62 62 60 366


    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    Kresslack
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2018
    Row Labels Apr-18 May-18 Jun-18 Jul-18 Aug-18 Sep-18 Oct-18 Grand Total Percentage
    10 bound credits 1 2 3 0.70%
    100000gp 1 4 1 1 2 2 11 2.57%
    200000gp 1 1 1 3 0.70%
    25 bound credits 1 3 1 2 1 8 1.87%
    5 bound credits 3 1 4 4 12 2.80%
    65000gp 3 2 4 3 4 4 1 21 4.91%
    75000gp 3 3 4 3 3 3 19 4.44%
    a birdcage covered in a white cloth 1 3 1 1 3 9 2.10%
    barrel of rum 8 1 3 8 5 7 9 41 9.58%
    Black finned flare 5 2 1 1 2 1 12 2.80%
    Crew experience 6 14 11 11 13 16 11 82 19.16%
    Crew morale 4 10 8 7 8 4 7 48 11.21%
    Golden Gryphon 5 4 2 4 4 3 4 26 6.07%
    great Notic amulet 2 2 3 2 1 1 4 15 3.50%
    Hollowed Skull 3 4 2 3 1 1 14 3.27%
    missed 4 4 0.93%
    Reticulated giraffe 1 1 1 1 4 0.93%
    Seaworn pair of stone dice 1 1 1 2 1 6 1.40%
    Striking sea captain's hat 4 3 3 4 2 6 3 25 5.84%
    Unmarked wooden crate 3 2 2 7 1.64%
    Weapon ammunition 4 7 10 9 9 4 5 48 11.21%
    Wicker basket containing a ginger kitten 4 1 4 1 10 2.34%
    Grand Total 60 62 60 62 62 60 62 428 100.00%

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    UtianimaLaedha
  • PythagorasPythagoras Member Posts: 16
    @Klendathu Thanks for putting these together, they' re super useful!
    KlendathuUtianimaLaedha
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Row Labels Apr-18 May-18 Jun-18 Jul-18 Aug-18 Sep-18 Oct-18 Nov-18 Grand Total Percentage
    10 bound credits 1 2 2 5 1.02%
    100000gp 1 4 1 1 2 2 2 13 2.66%
    200000gp 1 1 1 2 5 1.02%
    25 bound credits 1 3 1 2 1 8 1.64%
    5 bound credits 3 1 4 4 1 13 2.66%
    65000gp 3 2 4 3 4 4 1 4 25 5.12%
    75000gp 3 3 4 3 3 3 3 22 4.51%
    a birdcage covered in a white cloth 1 3 1 1 3 5 14 2.87%
    barrel of rum 8 1 3 8 5 7 9 4 45 9.22%
    Black finned flare 5 2 1 1 2 1 2 14 2.87%
    Crew experience 6 14 11 11 13 16 11 6 88 18.03%
    Crew morale 4 10 8 7 8 4 7 10 58 11.89%
    Golden Gryphon 5 4 2 4 4 3 4 1 27 5.53%
    great Notic amulet 2 2 3 2 1 1 4 3 18 3.69%
    Hollowed Skull 3 4 2 3 1 1 2 16 3.28%
    missed 4 4 0.82%
    Reticulated giraffe 1 1 1 1 4 0.82%
    Seaworn pair of stone dice 1 1 1 2 1 3 9 1.84%
    Striking sea captain's hat 4 3 3 4 2 6 3 5 30 6.15%
    Unmarked wooden crate 3 2 2 1 8 1.64%
    Weapon ammunition 4 7 10 9 9 4 5 4 52 10.66%
    Wicker basket containing a ginger kitten 4 1 4 1 10 2.05%
    Grand Total 60 62 60 62 62 60 62 60 488 100.00%

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    Laedha
  • BannBann Member Posts: 391 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Looks like your sample size is getting pretty stable. There also needs to be more gold trades, for real. People won't risk pirates for chump change, either, though.

    Laedha
  • DupreDupre M.Member Posts: 288 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    we've looked through the data regarding ship trades and have removed many of the same harbour start/finish trades.

    Merry Logosmas, ship traders!

    https://www.achaea.com/banner/caiges.jpg
  • SiduriSiduri Member Posts: 1,568 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Oh come on. We all know they had removed them months ago. They just pretended not to.

    image
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dupre said:
    we've looked through the data regarding ship trades and have removed many of the same harbour start/finish trades.

    Merry Logosmas, ship traders!

    Siduri said:
    Oh come on. We all know they had removed them months ago. They just pretended not to.
    Yeah, wasn't quite what I was after with my tracking project :D MORE same harbour start/end trades, not less, especially gold ones. For the time / gold investment, almost none of the ship trades are worth sailing, and that's not even factoring in the possibility of sinking. Time for more analysis (I have six months of data now)

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    SiduriAereidhna
  • MathildaMathilda Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Glad I sold my shippy ship when I did. This is definitely a system that is not worth the time.
     <3 
    SiduriMorthifAereidhna
  • PythagorasPythagoras Member Posts: 16
    I really enjoy sailing, it's one of the aspects of this world that draws me in. There's nothing quite as exhilarating as fetching the wind or casting off on a voyage to some far away, exotic land.  (Sailing is single-handedly the reason I bought a monthly membership. ) That being said, I am more than a little troubled when decisions like these are made, likely with good cause and done in the hopes to curtail some abuse. However, I've seen quite a few sailors question their investments of time and money into something they love so much.  What a sad, completely avoidable outcome this is and as I look closer at trades there surely must be a better and more just response to abuse than the further withdrawal of good trades, all in the name of a more fair system while on the other hand punishing all sailors. Make trading better and create barriers for the abusers not on the system itself otherwise you are destroying something that makes our world more enjoyable to all of us each and every month. 
  • CailinCailin Member Posts: 252 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Knowing that the admin have been very good about listening to the players in the past, and always try to make the game a better and more fun place for us, I am optimistic that they will do something to improve the situation as soon as they can, although that may well be a long time. In the meantime, at least monster hunting remains an enjoyable and rewarding experience for some players.
  • SolnirSolnir Member Posts: 749 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I can't speak for other people, but personally I'm not a fan of sailing. The only time I'd ever sail before was for gold, and now it's not worth it.
  • EllodinEllodin HawaiiMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 894 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I make a ton off of trades, especially compared to the upkeep needed for my ship, at a far lesser time commitment than bashing it up. I don't have the artefacts or talismans to be an elite basher, but I'm probably above average, and unless I get absolutely prime pick of everything I want to bash and I'm comparing it to one of the less lucrative trades, the value/time isn't that close. It isn't enough to buy another Seastrider in a month, but it more than funds all of my other random interests in the game in addition to paying for itself (with the exception of special projects that cannot possibly be funded in the same amount of time commitment, like rushing legendary smith, mass housing credit purchase, or CFS purchases to chase an artefact).

    Easy to ask for more and more, but I think it's quite good unless people are overpaying crew/shipmates to some insane extent. I really like the random things sprinkled in, like unmarked wooden crates or hollowed skulls, though I'm admittedly not always interested in making those sails every time the trades crop up.

    If anything, I think some of the trades being largely pointless or too many stops for their worth (specifically crew morale, crew experience, weapon ammunition, rum, maybe hat) is more of a discouraging point. For example, if those types of trades were limited to 1-2 short-hops (e.g. Shastaan-Tasur'ke, or Thraasi-Zanzibaar), then they'd serve as a nice introduction to the system for people newer to trades or with less time to spare.
    And as he slept he dreamed a dream, and this was his dream.
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think Ellodin's suggestion of making the crew experience and morale trades much shorter and simpler is excellent, they are incredibly useful for new denizen crews to get a boost, but they take far too long and are relatively expensive for the type of sailor likely to take them. However, I could never in good conscience recommend an ammunition trade because the ammunition received is random, and often weighted to flares.

    With the current state of the credit market, the 25 bound credit trades are always financially viable, as are the 200k gold trades. Situationally, the 100k and below gold trades are worth doing, but that is dependent on the rate at which you can generate gold from other activities, namely hunting. Assuming a 65k gold reward, with 20k initial cargo and 7k docking fees, that's a gold profit of 38k, which will take around 2 hours to sail. If you can bash up an average of 19k per hour, you're better off doing that than a ship trade. (These are made up numbers to illustrate a point, no need to get your stopwatches out!)

    The gold trades can be made more profitable with some forward planning - always fill the ship's hold and trade everything down, the next time there's a similar trade, the sailing is mostly done and the time / gold investment already made. This, of course, comes with the additional risk of being attacked and sunk by pirates (and I don't just mean those who call themselves Pirates, but also the other sailors who regularly attack ships) and losing even more, but that is the nature of shiptrading. To counter this, it's possible to sail with other adventurers who can man weapons, repair damage, etc, but that further dilutes the profits. With no same harbour start/finish trades, it's going to be a hard sell to get adventurers to pend their time sailing when they could make more gold (as well as experience) from just hunting, especially as, unless you're the captain, or there's some immediate danger, crewing is a largely passive activity (and no, I'm not asking for adventurer crew to be made essential on a ship, before Anyone gets any ideas!)


    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    ShirszaeSiduri
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember Posts: 2,908 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    And if there wer an offer from the harbour masters to end salvage payments from the world I'd empty the pirate accounts to pay for it.
    image
    LaedhaTaleila
  • DupreDupre M.Member Posts: 288 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Jinsun said:
    many of you aren't seeing the value in an enemy who wants you to have a fighting change at enjoying this game.
    In most people's eyes whatever "value" "an enemy who wants you to have a fighting chance at enjoying this game" has, it is less than the value of "an enemy who has quit the game entirely"
    https://www.achaea.com/banner/caiges.jpg
  • AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 426 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I think the gold trades should be removed and have a multiplier on cargo delivered to Tasur/Shastaan. So the base level of cargo costs 1k, if you go through all 5 steps you get 1.5k per cargo (multiplied by the turn in ratio) and you can turn it in whenever. Tweak the numbers so it is balanced to whatever gold generation is good. (At 100 gold per step it would be 75k for a galley which seems far too much on demand but you get the idea)

    It would mean people can go sailing when they want instead of waiting for trades and free up some space for more interesting rewards.
    LennCailinSiduri
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember Posts: 2,908 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dupre said:
    Jinsun said:
    many of you aren't seeing the value in an enemy who wants you to have a fighting change at enjoying this game.
    In most people's eyes whatever "value" "an enemy who wants you to have a fighting chance at enjoying this game" has, it is less than the value of "an enemy who has quit the game entirely"
    This is an incredibly poor outlook and one we should discourage in a multiplayer game.
    image
    AccipiterTaleilaCailinCamroth
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 356 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Sailing is way too time consuming. I wish the ocean was much smaller.

    Between never knowing when a good trade deal will come and being expected to spend a couple hours to complete it, it's hard to want to bother.

    Never mind the risk of getting attacked by pirates, messing up how many to buy and having to start all over again, etc. It's just a huge waste of time.

    I think Achaea's admins sometimes forget that Achaea is a game and that it should be fun. Why would I bother with such a boring system?
  • LaedhaLaedha Member Posts: 140 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2018
    I find a lot of what other people do to be boring but to each their own, @Lenn . Sailing is one of my favorite parts of the game. It could really use some admin love right now. I know there's only so much dev time available but at some time I'm hoping they can get to it. This is a conflict-driven game and right now the conflict at sea is really limited and not that much fun. 

    I'd like to see a lot of the same changes as @Jinsun. I love ship combat but the consequences of sinking are too high. That causes a lot of the outright abuse flung at pirates because nobody wants to lose 60k+ at once. But without a healthy group of pirates, there's no fun conflict to be had. The people on the Mariners side don't have anybody they can sink within their RP except pirates, but anyone who tries to pirate is going to be immediately watched like a hawk and chased every time they leave harbor. It's a vicious cycle. 


    TaleilaCailinEllryn
  • DupreDupre M.Member Posts: 288 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Laedha said:
    I find a lot of what other people do to be boring but to each their own, @Lenn

    But without a healthy group of pirates, there's no fun conflict to be had.
    Just as some things that float Lenn's boat won't necessarily float yours (zing!), some people are different from you in that they idealize the seas being totally conflict-free
    https://www.achaea.com/banner/caiges.jpg
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember Posts: 2,908 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dupre said:
    Laedha said:
    I find a lot of what other people do to be boring but to each their own, @Lenn

    But without a healthy group of pirates, there's no fun conflict to be had.
    Just as some things that float Lenn's boat won't necessarily float yours (zing!), some people are different from you in that they idealize the seas being totally conflict-free
    As my mother would say "Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one gets fuller faster." Conflict free seas is just never going to happen. Even if the admin nuked pirates, there would still be people generating conflict. Also, seamonster zones randomly changed to have a chance (sometimes as high as 20% we've seen) of a monster spawning from the next zone up. (Kasharis spawning off tapoa and Leviathans spawning in Sapphire Sea). Highly unlikely that's a bug and probably meant to cut down on those of you that auto fish and seamonster hunt. It's pretty obvious the ones who are auto seamonster hunting, and rather than police it, the admin are giving you a chance to participate and be a value to the community. Conflict free seas is probably never going to happen because there is supposed to be -some- gold sink value to IRE and give players an incentive to buy more to compete more. So instead of harassing players who actually play ball in that arena and wishing for a world that will never exist for you, the healthier thing is to work with them to make this a more enjoyable community for all of us.
    image
    Taleila
  • TaleilaTaleila Member Posts: 54 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Jinsun said:
    Dupre said:
    Laedha said:
    I find a lot of what other people do to be boring but to each their own, @Lenn

    But without a healthy group of pirates, there's no fun conflict to be had.
    Just as some things that float Lenn's boat won't necessarily float yours (zing!), some people are different from you in that they idealize the seas being totally conflict-free
    As my mother would say "Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one gets fuller faster." Conflict free seas is just never going to happen. Even if the admin nuked pirates, there would still be people generating conflict. Also, seamonster zones randomly changed to have a chance (sometimes as high as 20% we've seen) of a monster spawning from the next zone up. (Kasharis spawning off tapoa and Leviathans spawning in Sapphire Sea). Highly unlikely that's a bug and probably meant to cut down on those of you that auto fish and seamonster hunt. It's pretty obvious the ones who are auto seamonster hunting, and rather than police it, the admin are giving you a chance to participate and be a value to the community. Conflict free seas is probably never going to happen because there is supposed to be -some- gold sink value to IRE and give players an incentive to buy more to compete more. So instead of harassing players who actually play ball in that arena and wishing for a world that will never exist for you, the healthier thing is to work with them to make this a more enjoyable community for all of us.
    Literally everything I was going to say, just said a lot more eloquently than I would have said it.

  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember Posts: 2,908 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I agree with all of what @Shirszae except the last one. The hide and seek is just part of it, and any patch you make will be abused/worked around. I once got attacked and had to fight off 4 ships. After sinking 4 ships, should I have to wait outside harbour while they go and get more ships? I got attacked last night and sank the ship. On my way back they tried to attack again with a different. Should I have to face them again for defending myself? Changing harbour currently is just a big cluster waiting to mess up mechanics.
    image
    Taleila
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember Posts: 2,908 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well I tried the "Pay off all the harbourmasters for the good of Sapience." Sorry, guys, it didn't work:

    27) Someone powerful told You: Indeed I do.
    29) You told Neraeos: I did wonder if I'd hear your voice ever outside of shouts
    33) Neraeos told You: I don't remember ever witnessing anything worth shouting
    about concerning you or your lot.
    36) You told Neraeos: That would be a first among supporters of the Mariners'
    Guild. Seems all they do is shout.
    37) Neraeos told You: A common misconception, that. It is the Sefyric Mariner's
    Guild because Sefyr guides them, not Myself.
    38) You told Neraeos: When the Nerai are distinguishable from common the
    Mariners' perhaps it will be righted.
    39) You told Neraeos: I have a proposition for you.
    40) You told Neraeos: I am a realistic and sympathetic man. I hear the
    complaints and cries of fellow mortals. You have the power to make real change 
    happen on the seas.
    41) You told Neraeos: Many sailors due to the cost of salvaging, do not sail as
    much as they would. This often makes the sea dull place for me.
    42) You told Neraeos: I am willing to pay an extreme amount for all harbours not
    to charge salvaging fees, and I feel like you could have the ear of the harbour 
    masters.
    43) Neraeos told You: Harbours have very little to do with Me, as does salvaging
    or anything else along those lines. What care I for the woes of gold? I am the 
    Sea, child, not some God of ships.
    44) You told Neraeos: Oh but of course they do! Would the Nerai come and go
    without them? Would so many have want of your realm with such limited access? No 
    you are not the god of ships, but you do have the power to benefit those who 
    serve you at a great cost to their sworn enemies.
    45) Neraeos told You: They would come and go as they did before the advent of
    ships. They did not need some flimsy structure of wood and cloth to serve Me, 
    nor do they now.
    46) You told Neraeos: They do not need them, but it us undeniable they certainly
    do use them. I would not come to you about the sky or the trees. I come to you 
    with an issue quite germane to your peoples.
    47) Neraeos told You: The realm of wealth is not Mine, so you are indeed coming
    to Me about a matter outside of My purview.
    48) You told Neraeos: Would be a shame for Lord Prospero to have such an affect
    on the traversing of the seas.
    49) Neraeos told You: What He does concerning mercantile trade amounts to
    throwing a single coin into a pond for Me. It matters not.
    50) You told Neraeos: Well enough, if you ever do seek to benefit your sailors.
    My offer will stand so long as the cost of returning to the sea is so great.
    image
    TaleilaPythagorasJaedra
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