Raiding Mechanics

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  • Kiet said:
    it's up to you to interpret it as a loss or win, and it really doesn't matter that much if the two sides agree. Sure, sometimes you get Eleusis war situations, but I think in general it's more interesting if people can go back and forth on it a bit.
    This. It happens all the time, and I for one enjoy it. Either side can easily twist things the other way, Mhaldor gets tanked and we boast by reminding everyone of how many times the other city failed to accomplish this, and that other city gets to say they won by detonating a tank. Worldwide messages for a disarm would be pretty cool though, voting for that solution.

    I thoroughly enjoy IG shouts between factions, and any time I yell or shout I am always expecting the other side to do the same back. Cyrene, and Eleusis recently, are the only cities where I've had people straight up go to OOC and tell me to, and I quote, "Go fuck myself." because I shout some shit. On numerous occasions.

    But, to each their own. Some people might not like that aspect of conflict.
  • Except it was Dochitha, Prythe, Eril, and Glorissa logged as defending. Not 5-6 experienced people. Looking at log for a new enemy raiding to charges for raiding being started it was well over 2 hours. Doesn't quite round up to 3. I just think the current system needs changing. It took 2 hours to get that tank. 2 hours. 2 hours later if you're not the loser I don't know who is. Apparently Cyrene. That says enough about the system currently.
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo Domingo
    edited January 2018
    Yeah, @Kiet meteor'd Keo and then left for the rest of the skirmish and I don't think he was in for the raid either.

    The tank was whatever, really. We made some mistakes that could have otherwise tided things in our favour. We'll hopefully learn. I had a lot of fun with the skirmishes, so I am not going to complain in the least. 

    I will point out, though, that its more likely we try and use guards when we get raided  with numbers meant to stomp us. I know, I know this is not always the case, and that some people are more guard-happy than others, but in general at least this rings true to me.


    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • Kogan said:
    Kiet said:
    I'm not personally a fan of raiding more than like an hour at a time on each city unless they did something to deserve it, but wow lol the salt.

    I think it's naive to say half the shit in that post when Iaki and I duod 5-6 Cyrenians including some of your experienced ones like two days ago, and rena/reyson/I generally win and we don't even have a mage. It's also naive to pretend that groups don't change--the group you 'beat' for an hour or whatever was a small one made up of mostly less experienced combatants with one or two that tried to herd them. Then Proficy came with a couple more and let's not pretend that's even the same engagement again.

    However, it does highlight the issue a lot of people have, that previous defender victories have little impact on what actually ends up happening. If you try to limit sanctions too much, though, then no one's ever going to send 'probing'  numbers at first--they'll always just bring 20 people because you can't risk losing at all. Like Iaki said, though, and you're roundabout agreeing: it's up to you to interpret it as a loss or win, and it really doesn't matter that much if the two sides agree. Sure, sometimes you get Eleusis war situations, but I think in general it's more interesting if people can go back and forth on it a bit.
    You were just part of a 3 hour raid last night though. 3 hours. For what? Nobody has explained that to anyone yet as far as I know making the shout even more of a confusing capstone to it. If anything 3 hours later it should be damn near impossible to score a tank. Regardless of what's happened. I also don't know who's being counted as experienced because you dont duo 5-6 experienced fighters without some nifty strat likely involving a monk or ret. I've only had one engagement with you, Reyson, and Alrena. I remember winning that all but what was the last skirmish when you guys left. So I'm not sure when the secret ones are happening where you guys usually win with 3 people, but I don't doubt you're killing some non-coms and writing them off as more experienced. I think the problem is the constantly comparing numbers to people who know what they're doing. Dochi + 4 people. You kill Dochitha. The other few dont even know who to target likely. Now it is getting a bit off topic, but its silly to call it a different engagement if you never really left.


    Edit: Either way cool stuff on the duo. Those engagements are fun when I'm around, but I'm just not sure how it invalidates the fact that you can win most skirmishes and somehow lose or makes half my post seem naive.
    Okay, we're apparently doing this!

    Here is the only Cyrene attack from yesterday. 24 minutes from sanction to tank, 51 minutes from sanction to end sanction (reminder: 30 minutes from last kill to end of sanction). Apparently 24 minutes is 3 hours in Cyrene time.

    2018/01/29 12:00:44 - Athalos has sanctioned a raid against The City of Cyrene.
    2018/01/29 12:05:21 - Syndra has retrieved a tank from your city's reserves.
    2018/01/29 12:24:31 - Aegoth, Athalos, Exxia, Leviticus, Lii, Proficy, and Syndra have destroyed The
    ruins of Pavilion in the Imperial gardens.
    2018/01/29 12:51:44 - The sanctioned raid in The City of Cyrene has ended.

    Here is from two days ago, just in case you meant this one. That lasted 45 minutes (again, sanction lasts 30 minutes after the last kill happens, so 1:12 of game time is actually equal to 42 minutes).

    2018/01/28 05:03:58 - Kiet has sanctioned a raid against The City of Cyrene.
    2018/01/28 05:49:20 - Credits: +24. Reason: Citizen purchase.
    2018/01/28 06:05:07 - Credits: +1. Reason: Citizen purchase.
    2018/01/28 06:15:00 - The sanctioned raid in The City of Cyrene has ended.

    Please stop making things up.

  • If your own side can't agree on who was and wasn't there, maybe you should regroup and figure out what it is you're complaining about. 
  • Nah. It was accurate. Kiet and I were talking about the Iakimen/Kiet duo situation. Which was Dochitha and 3 non-coms as logged. Not Dochitha and another 5-6 experienced fighters. 


    ETA: Kayeil > Defenders list: Shirszae, Keorin, Dochitha, Emiya, Edena, Aleestare, Syssyn , Kayeil. And there are missing people. Taryius defended too. And probably others.
    This is from the 2+ hour fiasco.
     
    Also....
    @Taryius ONE OF US! ONE OF US! :lol:
  • Cooper said:

    Please stop making things up.
    So Armali is just full of shit too. Okay. Let me reword that. An hour and a half until a sanction was even gained. Another hour of tank not exploding. Sounds like a win to me.
  • So what you're saying is, you want raiders to pile in everyone they can to get sanctions and blow tanks quickly, instead of holding back to try and give defenders a chance? 
  • I have not seen any other version of raiding, but I don't like denying sanction being treated as a victory condition, nor the option to hold back a tank after sanction until you're ready. I'd much rather see once you're in, you're committed, opt in is you go defend, at worst a tank gets detonated.
  • Reyson said:
    So what you're saying is, you want raiders to pile in everyone they can to get sanctions and blow tanks quickly, instead of holding back to try and give defenders a chance? 
    This seems disingenuous to me. If Mhaldor ever loses, they come back with more, and they do that until they win or run out of people. Same goes for every other city. You don't give defenders a chance as-is.
  • Reyson said:
    So what you're saying is, you want raiders to pile in everyone they can to get sanctions and blow tanks quickly, instead of holding back to try and give defenders a chance? 
    If your plan is to add 1 at a time until you get a tank anyways, yes. If not, then sure be fair all you can I guess.
  • edited January 2018
    Kogan said:
    Nah. It was accurate. Kiet and I were talking about the Iakimen/Kiet duo situation. Which was Dochitha and 3 non-coms as logged. Not Dochitha and another 5-6 experienced fighters. 


    ETA: Kayeil > Defenders list: Shirszae, Keorin, Dochitha, Emiya, Edena, Aleestare, Syssyn , Kayeil. And there are missing people. Taryius defended too. And probably others.
    This is from the 2+ hour fiasco.
     
    Also....
    @Taryius ONE OF US! ONE OF US! :lol:
    I never said the whole group was experienced, lol, just that you had some. I thought Erick and whoever else was also helping, though, but maybe they just walked past. That said:


    You have slain Prythe.
    Your triumph suffuses you with a great rush of experience.
    Total darkness falls upon your location, the might of Shirszae banishing all illumination from the land.
    Can't blame me for counting Shirszae (an experienced combatant!) then, though I don't remember if she actually meleed us in the end.  You'd also hope someone that was dauntless is experienced but I could be wrong.

    Still doesn't change the fact we've 3-5 man raided you plenty with no ret but you somehow only remember the one time you wiped us a few times.


  • Calira said:
    Reyson said:
    So what you're saying is, you want raiders to pile in everyone they can to get sanctions and blow tanks quickly, instead of holding back to try and give defenders a chance? 
    This seems disingenuous to me. If Mhaldor ever loses, they come back with more, and they do that until they win or run out of people. Same goes for every other city. You don't give defenders a chance as-is.
    Wasn't Kogan just boasting a couple posts ago that he managed to largely beat Kiet, Alrena, and myself in a skirmish? Where Alrena and myself are concerned, we by and large give defenders a chance to beat us, and when we lose, we try again with what we had, or leave. To wit- if I were really playing in a style you're accusing me of playing, I'd've just grabbed all of Mhaldor's CWHO on Friday and wiped out a bunch of those vulnerable 4-guard stacks Cyrene has lying around, with silence vibes and all the rest of it, no?

    But, it's nice to see what a consistent, concerted effort to keep things fair for the defenders nets you, what a waste of time. 
  • Reyson said:

    Wasn't Kogan just boasting a couple posts ago that he managed to largely beat Kiet, Alrena, and myself in a skirmish? Where Alrena and myself are concerned, we by and large give defenders a chance to beat us, and when we lose, we try again with what we had, or leave. To wit- if I were really playing in a style you're accusing me of playing, I'd've just grabbed all of Mhaldor's CWHO on Friday and wiped out a bunch of those vulnerable 4-guard stacks Cyrene has lying around, with silence vibes and all the rest of it, no?

    But, it's nice to see what a consistent, concerted effort to keep things fair for the defenders nets you, what a waste of time. 
    No. I wasn't boasting. I was saying I must not have been around when these other skirmishes were happening, but the only one I've had with you 3 I felt we won. Alrena agreed with that much. I found it fun. I thought everyone found it fun. I will say Mhaldor rarely tries again with exactly what they had though. Nothing requires them to, but for most people I think if all you want is a tank a lot of folks don't care to fight the additional man added each time until it finally equates to a tank.
  • Reyson said:
    Wasn't Kogan just boasting a couple posts ago that he managed to largely beat Kiet, Alrena, and myself in a skirmish? Where Alrena and myself are concerned, we by and large give defenders a chance to beat us, and when we lose, we try again with what we had, or leave. To wit- if I were really playing in a style you're accusing me of playing, I'd've just grabbed all of Mhaldor's CWHO on Friday and wiped out a bunch of those vulnerable 4-guard stacks Cyrene has lying around, with silence vibes and all the rest of it, no?

    But, it's nice to see what a consistent, concerted effort to keep things fair for the defenders nets you, what a waste of time. 
    I'm not sure what goes on between Mhaldor and @Kogan, I'm just voicing my own observations and not accusing you in particular of anything. Raids occasionally start small and skirmishes are often on even terms, and those are both nice. But once the sanction hits, the reinforcements start rolling in like clockwork.
  • edited January 2018
    Kogan said:
    Reyson said:

    Wasn't Kogan just boasting a couple posts ago that he managed to largely beat Kiet, Alrena, and myself in a skirmish? Where Alrena and myself are concerned, we by and large give defenders a chance to beat us, and when we lose, we try again with what we had, or leave. To wit- if I were really playing in a style you're accusing me of playing, I'd've just grabbed all of Mhaldor's CWHO on Friday and wiped out a bunch of those vulnerable 4-guard stacks Cyrene has lying around, with silence vibes and all the rest of it, no?

    But, it's nice to see what a consistent, concerted effort to keep things fair for the defenders nets you, what a waste of time. 
    No. I wasn't boasting. I was saying I must not have been around when these other skirmishes were happening, but the only one I've had with you 3 I felt we won. Alrena agreed with that much. I found it fun. I thought everyone found it fun. I will say Mhaldor rarely tries again with exactly what they had though. Nothing requires them to, but for most people I think if all you want is a tank a lot of folks don't care to fight the additional man added each time until it finally equates to a tank.
    I just think it's very weird to complain that we bring more people every time we lose, while in the same breath recounting a story in which we repeated the same engagement and the numbers didn't change even though we lost a few times in a row. 

    My experience of Mhaldor's vastly different- we're nearly always holding people back because we know if we bring more than 3-4 in the time I play, we won't get a fight at all. Probably best to avoid sweeping generalizations, really. In your time in-game, things might be one way, but to say 'everyone in Mhaldor does X or Y' seems a little presumptuous, when by your own admission, people of a certain faction play with a different attitude, no?

    ETA: Alrena doesn't even let us tank people very much :( 
  • edited January 2018
    Just experienced my first raid. Conclusion: Retardation -> Trample -> 10-20 holocaust globes

    (edited out the blatantly negative bits) Ouch.

    I wouldn't mind a little shared XP, though. A bit more motivation for participation when I know I'm going to spend most of my time getting cheesed to death or just straight up wrecked.


  • Calira said:
    Reyson said:
    So what you're saying is, you want raiders to pile in everyone they can to get sanctions and blow tanks quickly, instead of holding back to try and give defenders a chance? 
    This seems disingenuous to me. If Mhaldor ever loses, they come back with more, and they do that until they win or run out of people. Same goes for every other city. You don't give defenders a chance as-is.
    We lost for a good hour before we added 1 more last night. We’ve also lost or won with the numbers we’ve started and ended with, on top of ensuring we don’t add people when we are already winning. You spout some serious shit sometimes, probably best to stop it.
  • The point was that you add people when you're losing just as much as everyone else (read: sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't). 
     <3 
  • edited January 2018
    Mathilda said:
    The point was that you add people when you're losing just as much as everyone else (read: sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't). 
    “If mhaldor ever loses, they come back with more or until they run out of numbers”.

    proven false multiple times in this thread. No point can be made on false pretenses. The point was based on hyperbole and fabrication.

    It's at a point now where people are incredibly quick to jump on the few examples of the bad to paint it all as bad, instead of realizing that all cities will be involved in anyway they can to get a win. You don't hear the infiltration attempts and setting up with a group only to get instant OOC messages that "you won't get a fight/we cbf engaging" and then having to move on, rinse and repeat X times until SOMEONE finally does. I enjoy raiding, and small skirmishes to a lesser extent. 1v1 isn't my jam, and even though I'll slowly get there I put it at the bottom of "why I play" because it's a dick measuring contest that I can't be arsed for. 

    It's especially infuriating when people have told you that you've kept it fair during the fight and enjoyed the engagement, only to have someone 6 hours later link you the log of a detonation and go "OMG YOU ONLY WIN WIF NUMBERS FUCKING 1V1 ME SCRUBLORDS" and it sends you to a point of "why do I want to engage with these people on any level for any reason?" Raiding mechanics may need some fine tuning, but until players can take a loss on the chin (FROM MEMORY, I've not engaged twice, both with ashtan, one was me, melodie and 4 novices, so neither of us had NFI what to do, second time we were outnumbered but Iaki and I were discussing what to do and I was waiting to swap to monk to try and use a few tricks to help on our end). 

    People are going to bitch and whine about why they lost, and use varying degrees of reasoning, if it's 12v13, it's outnumbering, if it's 8v5 it's out escrow or having noobs, if it's dead even 5v5 with perfect situations and no wind and everyone uses the same golf clubs it's "Factional classes". I've received a small amount of positive discussions after wins or losses, and a boatload of negative, angry smallish ranting as well. The small amount of positive was making keeping things fair worthwhile, but it's piled onto a point where if people are going to complain anyway, might as well give them a reason too so it isn't just hyperbole and lies.
  • Actually, not proven false as is stated by the second part of your quote: "until they run out of numbers". If you didn't add more people, it's either because you are holding back or because you have no people to add. Both cases have been true, and again, is true across all cities.

    Mhaldor is not some special case of Honourable Raider.
     <3 
  • Having yourself been someone who was criticised for making grossly hyperbolic and offensive generalisations only recently, surely you might see a trend here, wherein people (not just Mhaldorians) don't like to be accused via sweeping platitude that very much sounds like an 'everyone in X does Y?' 

    If you're willing to make (or stand by) an argument like 'If Mhaldor ever loses, they come back with more, and they do that until they win or run out of people.' then you better be ready to prove that it happens 100% of the time because that's actually what's written. Calira didn't write 'Sometimes, if Mhaldor loses etc. etc.' She didn't write '55% of the time, if Mhaldor loses etc. etc.' She wrote 'If Mhaldor ever loses etc. etc.' which is absolutely and completely not my experience of playing in Mhaldor. 

    If you're going to make a statement and posit it as fact in any place where a conversation can take place, maybe stay away from generalisation and stick to specific instances, unless you actually have significant, meaningful data to support your claims? Else you're just begging for someone to come punch holes in a statement like that, really. 
  • I think constables should have more counters, or be changed to better be a tool that boosts the defenders rather than wins for the defenders.
    image
  • Out of curiosity, why are we stating that defenders get all the advantage when you get pubically vilified and called out (and raided specifically) because you use the defenders available to you?

    And to say raiders don't have the advantage when entrenched is fucking laughable, when the abilities in certain groups sometimes means the best course of action a defending city can take is to ignore the fact you are there. 

    That said, a public message on disarm would be great and probably all it needs. 

    (Party): Mezghar says, "Stop."
  • edited January 2018
    Rangor hit the nail on the head. One single class counters guards, and guards can literally win most fights for you. 

    Turn on the font and let it tick and you're looking at a massive increase in damage in 15ish minutes.

    Paired with the ability to safely redef/group up on a guard stack (earrings mitigates this a bit, I confess, but since not all of us have earrings, regrouping is still a bit tricky for some of us, myself included), you have some prety significant advantages there. 

    ETA: I'm not villifying anyone for using guards, my point was more that it's rich to accuse someone of 'cheesing' when your own team is predisposed to use the simplest and most low-effort option in calling for help even for an incursion of a couple or a trio of people. By admission, Cyrenians are more disposed to doing this than anything else, and I don't think Dochitha would've been lying about that- and he certainly knows Cyrenians better than I do, so I'm inclined to take his word for it.
  • edited January 2018
    Most of you just don’t use prism enough. Worried about adjacent ret? Prism. Can’t move group because room hinders in every direction? Prism. 

    Coupled wifh Quake, you can literally rush the room directly without losing anyone or hitting any totem from the raiding party.

    Raiding is slated in favor of the defense party without question, barring skill disparity or large number disparity.

    The entrenchment people complain about isn’t really that bad when you adjust properly. Can’t really adjust to a 30% increase to damage taken, or whatever.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • Reyson said:
    By admission, Cyrenians are more disposed to doing this than anything else, and I don't think Dochitha would've been lying about that- and he certainly knows Cyrenians better than I do, so I'm inclined to take his word for it.
    Yes...because it's Cyrene. If you want a more accurate gauge of the raiding scene and how much guards and when font powers are used, you shouldn't use the least combative city as an example.
     <3 
  • I mean... okay? 

    That was part of a two-sentence statement literally making a point about how it's odd to call someone else cheesy and then by and large bank on guards. It was an attack on an apparent double standard in certain persons' attitudes, not an indictment on the effectiveness or how prevalent guard use is as a whole, across all of Achaea. You probably shouldn't just cut out parts of people's arguments and then attack them for not addressing a point they're not trying to make. 
  • That’s it.

    Leave cheese out of this.

    Cheese is amazing and I won’t have you slandering its name over and over.

     :s  :s
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