Raiding Mechanics

Nazihk

I don't think any of that stuff would encourage defense, though. It might discourage offense, but that's not the same thing at all. And removing the ability to move guards would just discourage defense even more.

The best way to encourage defense is going to be to make a defense mean something. Right now, there's quite often no reason to defend. Trying to throw out the raiders just opens you to personal deaths and more damage to the city, and not trying to do anything doesn't open you up to anything other than some totem theft that's just as irritating and terrible for the raiders to do as it is for you to replace them.

Minifie

Nazihk said:

I don't think any of that stuff would encourage defense, though. It might discourage offense, but that's not the same thing at all. And removing the ability to move guards would just discourage defense even more.

The best way to encourage defense is going to be to make a defense mean something. Right now, there's quite often no reason to defend. Trying to throw out the raiders just opens you to personal deaths and more damage to the city, and not trying to do anything doesn't open you up to anything other than some totem theft that's just as irritating and terrible for the raiders to do as it is for you to replace them.

I mean, 90% of the time I'll defend, because it makes 0 RP sense to just let enemies sit in your city and do what they want, but perhaps for me RP > some deaths/losing?

Minifie

To clarify: it won’t hurt to have better rewards for defenders to entice more people to do it, but i don’t buy that most of the time there is “no” reason, as a city to defend. IC there are enemies in your city, who would be ok with that?

Sobriquet

A random tank location would never work, plus, scoping out and finding the best raid locations is a key part of raiding.

I still wish we could stop the random Star tarots, mind locks, brazier attempts on random citizens just so we know raiders are in

Antonius

Depthswalker extinguish is a good option for announcing your presence as an invading force, but not every group always has a Depthswalker.

If the responses to yells were more intelligent than "You're dumb" then people might be more willing to use those, rather than actually aggressive actions, to publicise their intent once inside the city.

Sobriquet

So because the odd person shouts "You're Dumb" it's justification to ignore shouts completely and start using star tarot on randoms? Or, just announce it on Warriors Clan, seeing as most of the raiding agreements and arrangements are made on there anyway. 

I guess it's fighting a losing battle.

Reyson

I mean, I get what you're saying, but getting a ton of hostile OOC messages more often than not isn't an endearing side effect of yelling. 

The IC ones aren't much better, but that's fine. 

Personally, I smudge or hit a denizen when I can, yell when I can't, or hit a mark/bounty target if all else fails, and I've seen people do the same both in Mdor and elsewhere.

Antonius

I have no issues with people throwing a few star tarots or meteors at a known defender to let them know you're there. Same with a brazier attempt. They won't kill you if that's all it is. Doing the same thing to random novices is something else entirely.

It's also not just the odd person saying something like "you're dumb". Literally every response I've ever witnessed to attempts to start things via yells in an enemy city has been responded to only by halfwits who contribute nothing of value to the situation.

Sobriquet

Antonius said:

I have no issues with people throwing a few star tarots or meteors at a known defender to let them know you're there. Same with a brazier attempt. They won't kill you if that's all it is. Doing the same thing to random novices is something else entirely.

It's also not just the odd person saying something like "you're dumb". Literally every response I've ever witnessed to attempts to start things via yells in an enemy city has been responded to only by halfwits who contribute nothing of value to the situation.

Without beating a dead horse, if that brazier attempt is successful and, say, I suddenly appear in the middle of a raid group, you telling me I'll walk away unharmed?

Caelan

Sobriquet said:

Antonius said:

I have no issues with people throwing a few star tarots or meteors at a known defender to let them know you're there. Same with a brazier attempt. They won't kill you if that's all it is. Doing the same thing to random novices is something else entirely.

It's also not just the odd person saying something like "you're dumb". Literally every response I've ever witnessed to attempts to start things via yells in an enemy city has been responded to only by halfwits who contribute nothing of value to the situation.

Without beating a dead horse, if that brazier attempt is successful and, say, I suddenly appear in the middle of a raid group, you telling me I'll walk away unharmed?

Hehe.  seriously.

Pyori

Sobriquet said:

So because the odd person shouts "You're Dumb" it's justification to ignore shouts completely and start using star tarot on randoms?

If you wanna get technical... Going by HELP PK rules, someone insulting you (no matter how childish the insult is) is a valid reason to kill them. Whether you're in their city or not. So yeah it is justification, provided it's done on the person doing the 'insulting' shouts. If you wanna shout stuff, shout things that aren't quite obviously provocative.


Just saying.

Mathilda

While 'cause' no longer exists, it seems wrong that a raider in a city can continue to accrue reasons to further kill that city's inhabitants...

Antonius

I think that very much depends on what they do. Anything that is done in defence of the city wouldn't give any reason to kill them later on.

Insults may, depending on the severity and whether there was any provocation (saying "you're dumb" in response to some preachy yells probably wouldn't cut it, but if somebody was to, say, insult the Bloodsworn out of nowhere I don't see why my current location would make a difference).

Kiet

Sobriquet said:

Antonius said:

I have no issues with people throwing a few star tarots or meteors at a known defender to let them know you're there. Same with a brazier attempt. They won't kill you if that's all it is. Doing the same thing to random novices is something else entirely.

It's also not just the odd person saying something like "you're dumb". Literally every response I've ever witnessed to attempts to start things via yells in an enemy city has been responded to only by halfwits who contribute nothing of value to the situation.

Without beating a dead horse, if that brazier attempt is successful and, say, I suddenly appear in the middle of a raid group, you telling me I'll walk away unharmed?

I've literally never seen a (random, unprepped) brazier attempt succeed on someone that's not a complete novice, and novices have a good chance of being let go depending on who's raiding.

Do you seriously walk around uncloaked?

Jacen

Why is it the fault of the person who's not using the defense against the attack that shouldn't happen, instead of the fault of the person who attacks when they shouldn't?

Mathilda

I do, when I log in on phone. Also I can't remember whether it's @Asmodron or @Mosr who used to get braziered all the time because they also log in via mobile (so no triggers to touch cloak, etc.)

In any case, it can and has happened (that brazier successfully summons a citizen). I don't think it's the fault of the brazier-ee when raiders aren't supposed to attack citizens who are yet uninvolved in the defense.

Dochitha

Mathilda said:

I do, when I log in on phone. Also I can't remember whether it's @Asmodron or @Mosr who used to get braziered all the time because they also log in via mobile (so no triggers to touch cloak, etc.)

In any case, it can and has happened (that brazier successfully summons a citizen). I don't think it's the fault of the brazier-ee when raiders aren't supposed to attack citizens who are yet uninvolved in the defense.

Does the admins care?

Atalkez

Kiet said:

Sobriquet said:

Antonius said:

I have no issues with people throwing a few star tarots or meteors at a known defender to let them know you're there. Same with a brazier attempt. They won't kill you if that's all it is. Doing the same thing to random novices is something else entirely.

It's also not just the odd person saying something like "you're dumb". Literally every response I've ever witnessed to attempts to start things via yells in an enemy city has been responded to only by halfwits who contribute nothing of value to the situation.

Without beating a dead horse, if that brazier attempt is successful and, say, I suddenly appear in the middle of a raid group, you telling me I'll walk away unharmed?

I've literally never seen a (random, unprepped) brazier attempt succeed on someone that's not a complete novice, and novices have a good chance of being let go depending on who's raiding.

Do you seriously walk around uncloaked?

Hard to see something from your ship!

In all seriousness, it happens a lot. I’ve braziered people you would never guess would make that mistake!

Torinn

I'm pretty sure if you're a member of the army you are open to attack if they're attempting to gain sanction.  Even if that isn't the case, you can't control other people, you can only control your self.  Therefore, regardless of whether it is right or not, it is on you to make sure you have proper defenses ready in the chance that it happens.  You don't need triggers or reflexes to TOUCH CLOAK.  If it isn't right, there are channels to address that, but you should still be ready anyways.  You control your own safety, not others. 

Sobriquet

Kiet said:

Sobriquet said:

Antonius said:

I have no issues with people throwing a few star tarots or meteors at a known defender to let them know you're there. Same with a brazier attempt. They won't kill you if that's all it is. Doing the same thing to random novices is something else entirely.

It's also not just the odd person saying something like "you're dumb". Literally every response I've ever witnessed to attempts to start things via yells in an enemy city has been responded to only by halfwits who contribute nothing of value to the situation.

Without beating a dead horse, if that brazier attempt is successful and, say, I suddenly appear in the middle of a raid group, you telling me I'll walk away unharmed?

I've literally never seen a (random, unprepped) brazier attempt succeed on someone that's not a complete novice, and novices have a good chance of being let go depending on who's raiding.

Do you seriously walk around uncloaked?

I see you are taking my deliberately obtuse comment and making your own. As a Non Mark, with no active Bounty or contract after me, there are a number of reasons why I wouldn't need to have cloak up. Although I auto def it on log in, some people don't, and why should it be up to ME to act against a raider coming in and summoning me unannounced into a group of 8 people on a hair trigger?

Yes, it's a basic defense and yes I'm really just using it to make a point, but you can't tell me Mhaldor would simply stop and stare at me if you managed to summon me into your group. 

Raiders make their case clear about wanting to engage by entering the city, defenders should also be able to make that decision themselves

Kiet

I can tell you if I was in the Mhaldor group I'd be spamming PT STOP  (well, for a random. if it was you, after your repeated goading of mhaldor, maybe not)) but just like last time we had this horrible argument it's irrelevant to the people arguing this is an awful practice.

Aegoth

Yea, Sobriquet would die repeatedly  to a brazier attempt.. and it would be 100% justified every time. Sorry Sob

Thalyssra

As an outsider who is new to raiding and stuff here, I have seen numerous attempts to brazier me when in a raid alongside Mhaldor.

I always found that weird, as its one of the first things taught to a novice in every IRE game I have played, have a cloak tattoo, use selfishness, utilise mindseye or equivalent enchant, stay blind and deaf.  I mean I might not be IRE new, but its often listed in every Guild/House scroll I have ever been part of as part of initial novice, prevention of harm tasks...essentially.

That being said, I suppose there is the chance that my cloak faded and I didnt catch it, but generally these seem to be blind attempts at brazier, and I never have acknowledged defenses being stripped beforehand, which...might be more useful.

Puxi

Torinn said:

I'm pretty sure if you're a member of the army you are open to attack if they're attempting to gain sanction.  Even if that isn't the case, you can't control other people, you can only control your self.  Therefore, regardless of whether it is right or not, it is on you to make sure you have proper defenses ready in the chance that it happens.  You don't need triggers or reflexes to TOUCH CLOAK.  If it isn't right, there are channels to address that, but you should still be ready anyways.  You control your own safety, not others. 

I use to think this as well, but this is not the case. @Kogan very nicely notified me one time of my mistakes and since then I've rectified them, which is why I don't randomly radiance people anymore unless they are open to attack for being Infamous, a Mark, etc.

Laedha

Maybe this is only an issue for Cyrene and (I think) Hashan, but I think defender fatigue plays a role.  Like Cyrene's gotten raided 4 days in a row during US prime time. I don't think anybody's doing anything wrong, I know for sure that some of the raiders have tried to limit how long the raiding goes on, which is nice. But I think four days in a row is too much. The people who choose to play Cyrenians (mostly) don't like PVP. I don't think we should get to escape it totally, I have no issue with being raided sometimes. The people who like combat in Cyrene should get their fun sometimes for sure.  @Melodie pointed out that defending is good RP for most people and I think there are a lot of Cyrenian non-coms who defend because we feel obligated based on our character's RP, but it's not fun, and it gets increasingly less fun the more often it happens. I don't think anything needs to be hard-coded in or changed, but I think more frequent raids lead to less defender response.  (I know this is going to sound like whining, I'll own that. I'm totally whining because I really want to do something besides raid defense tonight. But there's no way my character would go do her own thing instead of defending, so if there's another raid, I'll probably play an alt.)

Also I definitely think getting a message for tank disarm and/or having successful disarms make it harder to gain sanction or place another tank would be helpful in giving defenders a sense of having accomplished something. 

Kiet

Ya any city that gets raided daily is gonna get tired of it. I try to keep it in mind, personally, but it's easy to slip up.

Aralaya

Generally what I've noticed with repeated daily raids is you get those few people who whip it up and then there's a raid, even if you've already raided them the last 2 days. But yeah, raid fatigue is definitely a problem, judging by the groans of a fair few Targossians when we hear the townt getting smudged.

Asmodron

It's a slippery slope with raid fatigue.


On one hand you can ignore the raiders..but you'll usually have some vocal citizen denouncing the act as cowardly...as well as raiders taking it upon themselves to shout and spout what cowards you are for not engaging them the 14th day in a row.

On the other, you can engage them again and again...based on some wayward principle that you -have- to satisfy other player's bloodlust, else you're not playing the game right. It's in those unwritten rules somewhere. Your teammates get exhausted and annoyed, because they arent logging in for combat alone...but somehow this is the norm.

So it is either you are cowards and not playing the game right...or exhausted and supplying the enemy players with what they want, because such is the way.

I think a good term used here in the gaming world to define the entire act is: "git gud"

Aegoth

No.   

Tahquil

Care to explain how, @Aegoth?