Raiding Mechanics

Krypton

I feel like they should make city sparkkeepers be attuned to this information.

Minifie

after going on a 3 tank detonation day, I really feel bad for defense. Definitely needs some help to make it more engaging ATM.

Herutar

Sobriquet said:

Radiance I still think is pretty dumb. Sit very safely away from the action and kill pretty much anyone who's not put lessons into mini skill, and those with no viable way of getting out (especially with orb). 

It has its uses to get people away from their main groups of course, but I still think there should be a smaller range of use for it. 

Granted Herutar's a mercenary troll so Telepathy isn't his bag, but I use Radiance primarily to get someone to wings out or as a time pressure when hitting guards. Doesn't really do all that much aside from annoy, though, unless you're like @Arkantos and built for Telepathy. I'm also a terrible combatant, though. 

Solnir

Building for telepathy does nothing to boost radiance. It's the same whether you have 0 int or 30, afaik. So a mercenary troll is just as annoying with radiance as a grook.

Torinn

It's annoying that it kills those without credits to buy wings/urn

Proficy

Solnir said:

Building for telepathy does nothing to boost radiance. It's the same whether you have 0 int or 30, afaik. So a mercenary troll is just as annoying with radiance as a grook.

Int has everything to do with radiance..
Ability to lock faster and keep a lock is based on int/willpower.
But the restriction of that radiance cool down on failed attempts makes radiance not an issue at all during raids unless you are someone needed to be in the room 24/7, which shouldn't be anyone..  so we can move past this as a raid topic

Vika

So after the last 3 Mhaldor raids this week, amost all of them relying on retardation I think some major things need to be done for next classleads.

Mainly: Any abilities that usually only hit enemies, should hit everyone. Tailsweep, deepfreeze, breathstorm etc

And abilities like aerial that have 100% bypass shouldnt work. There's no reason Aegoth should be able to cast aerial in ret with distort and leg fractures and then immediately be able to drop holo bombs.

This would probably be an overhaul on some abilities or even not considered, but it feels a bit silly that there's 0 repercussions if have your team can just tailsweep and keep up breathstorm in retardation, and the other magi is throwing down deepfreeze. Then just have someone trample and it's game. 

I'm not familiar in Achaea group combat tactics, but every ret strat from fighting Tesha in Mhaldor while they hole up in pulpit or fighting Mhaldor employs these abilities. They're way too safe, and just to break the immersion in a fantasy game where we set the rules, why isn't a huge ice storm hitting everyone? Why is the drops of acid falling from the sky not much slower or not hitting their allies in ret? Why isnt a huge dragon tail in retardation avoidable or not hitting your allies?

Just my issues with fighting it so much recently. 

Aegoth

I'd be fine with enemy-only abilities being indiscriminate inside ret.

Kythra

Entrenching is far too easy and raiding compliments the raiders rather than the defenders when entrenched.

Totem, Breathstorm, Blizzard, Ret. Wait for enemies to walk in, tailsweep, trample, deepfreeze. 

I think tweaking the hit rate to like 20% or something for dragon related abilities would be huge. Like, Druid sweep hits everyone in room. So should dragon tailsweep. Maybe breathstorm hits a -lot- slower. Maybe you have time to see totems so it acts like soft focus? I think complete overhauls to ally-exempt abilities would be too much a challenge, but accuracy tweaks for ret flags may be better?

Nazihk

I'd be okay with ret disabling trample or drastically lowering its breakrate. Horse too slow to trample everybody, etc. My biggest problem with retardation and the reason I hate it in group fights is because I feel like it ends up devolving down to "which team can get their effective AOE out first."

Vika said:j
ust to break the immersion in a fantasy game where we set the rules, why isn't a huge ice storm hitting everyone? Why is the drops of acid falling from the sky not much slower or not hitting their allies in ret? Why isnt a huge dragon tail in retardation avoidable or not hitting your allies?

Immersion is always a stupid argument. In a game where I shrug off hammer blows to the head while holding a few dozen mhun corpses, all while I am simultaneously dual wielding flails and drinking out of my 20-odd vials while eating leaves out of a magic rift in spacetime... you're going to say that magic rain not bothering me is a blow to immersion?

Kiet

Ret is one of the biggest issues with entrenchment and aoe abilities in general are a huge issue for ret. Something has to give I agree

Kythra

Nazihk said:

I'd be okay with ret disabling trample or drastically lowering its breakrate. Horse too slow to trample everybody, etc. My biggest problem with retardation and the reason I hate it in group fights is because I feel like it ends up devolving down to "which team can get their effective AOE out first."

Vika said:j
ust to break the immersion in a fantasy game where we set the rules, why isn't a huge ice storm hitting everyone? Why is the drops of acid falling from the sky not much slower or not hitting their allies in ret? Why isnt a huge dragon tail in retardation avoidable or not hitting your allies?

Immersion is always a stupid argument. In a game where I shrug off hammer blows to the head while holding a few dozen mhun corpses, all while I am simultaneously dual wielding flails and drinking out of my 20-odd vials while eating leaves out of a magic rift in spacetime... you're going to say that magic rain not bothering me is a blow to immersion?

I think she was being facetious. Did I use it right, @Aegoth?

Rangor

Bring back cube sigils as a counter to Ret and we're good. :P

Atalkez

Aerial shouldn’t bypass everything anyway. After the nerf to RoF, Aerial has no argument why it still operates this way anymore.

Alrena

Atalkez said:

Aerial shouldn’t bypass everything anyway. After the nerf to RoF, Aerial has no argument why it still operates this way anymore.

Especially when the eq recovery was drastically lowered with RoF as the argument for it. Either put it back to 4 seconds base or make it hit hinders!

I also agree with the sentiment that Ret basically means whichever team gets their AoE abilities in, wins and is generally the end-all in raiding. Not even talking about adjacent ret for an easy beckon on totems!

Atalkez

A potential change is making retardation only affect attacks. So curing, blocking, tells and things like that are unaffected.

Kiet

That'd make it useless vs half the classes tho wouldnt it

Atalkez

It’s 4am, just spitballing. Haven’t put much thought into it.

Xaden

Kythra said:

Nazihk said:

I'd be okay with ret disabling trample or drastically lowering its breakrate. Horse too slow to trample everybody, etc. My biggest problem with retardation and the reason I hate it in group fights is because I feel like it ends up devolving down to "which team can get their effective AOE out first."

Vika said:j
ust to break the immersion in a fantasy game where we set the rules, why isn't a huge ice storm hitting everyone? Why is the drops of acid falling from the sky not much slower or not hitting their allies in ret? Why isnt a huge dragon tail in retardation avoidable or not hitting your allies?

Immersion is always a stupid argument. In a game where I shrug off hammer blows to the head while holding a few dozen mhun corpses, all while I am simultaneously dual wielding flails and drinking out of my 20-odd vials while eating leaves out of a magic rift in spacetime... you're going to say that magic rain not bothering me is a blow to immersion?

I think she was being facetious. Did I use it right, @Aegoth?

Only if we redefine facetious as something it's not.

Taryius

Xaden said:

Kythra said:

Nazihk said:

I'd be okay with ret disabling trample or drastically lowering its breakrate. Horse too slow to trample everybody, etc. My biggest problem with retardation and the reason I hate it in group fights is because I feel like it ends up devolving down to "which team can get their effective AOE out first."

Vika said:j
ust to break the immersion in a fantasy game where we set the rules, why isn't a huge ice storm hitting everyone? Why is the drops of acid falling from the sky not much slower or not hitting their allies in ret? Why isnt a huge dragon tail in retardation avoidable or not hitting your allies?

Immersion is always a stupid argument. In a game where I shrug off hammer blows to the head while holding a few dozen mhun corpses, all while I am simultaneously dual wielding flails and drinking out of my 20-odd vials while eating leaves out of a magic rift in spacetime... you're going to say that magic rain not bothering me is a blow to immersion?

I think she was being facetious. Did I use it right, @Aegoth?

Only if we redefine facetious as something it's not.

Now you are just being facetious.

Farrah

Agree about AoE in ret. Make it hit everyone like with hatred aff. Make trample break half as many limbs in ret.

I'm fine with aerial personally. It's a weaker evade, only usable outdoors, and we all survived with RoF doing the same.

@Kythra Ret already adds a soft focus effect to totems. The problem is people just throw it down right after totem hit most of the time.

Kogan

Farrah said:

Agree about AoE in ret. Make it hit everyone like with hatred aff. Make trample break half as many limbs in ret.

I'm fine with aerial personally. It's a weaker evade, only usable outdoors, and we all survived with RoF doing the same.

@Kythra Ret already adds a soft focus effect to totems. The problem is people just throw it down right after totem hit most of the time.

The problem I have with it currently is when it's combined with other things. Ret + gravehands or ret + piety. So aerial is a free way out of my distort. Chasing is almost impossible due to gravehands/hinder of enemy. I can tentacle/heila but they'll just fly again for free. So it effectively allows them to sit there and cast holo on dor with no realistic way to counter it if you rush the room. Can try to fly to meet them I guess, but then we're assuming I'm not being dor trampled or some other cheese strat already. Also assuming I'm not going to get screwed by gravehands and waste my time. Even if you look at it from a 1v1 standpoint at the least the EQ needs to be looked at. Or tentacle. Either one. Someone flies and you tentacle just to hit a reflection you didn't see put up prior to them flying. Something isn't right there.

Farrah

Kogan said:

Farrah said:

Agree about AoE in ret. Make it hit everyone like with hatred aff. Make trample break half as many limbs in ret.

I'm fine with aerial personally. It's a weaker evade, only usable outdoors, and we all survived with RoF doing the same.

@Kythra Ret already adds a soft focus effect to totems. The problem is people just throw it down right after totem hit most of the time.

The problem I have with it currently is when it's combined with other things. Ret + gravehands or ret + piety. So aerial is a free way out of my distort. Chasing is almost impossible due to gravehands/hinder of enemy. I can tentacle/heila but they'll just fly again for free. So it effectively allows them to sit there and cast holo on dor with no realistic way to counter it if you rush the room. Can try to fly to meet them I guess, but then we're assuming I'm not being dor trampled or some other cheese strat already. Also assuming I'm not going to get screwed by gravehands and waste my time. Even if you look at it from a 1v1 standpoint at the least the EQ needs to be looked at. Or tentacle. Either one. Someone flies and you tentacle just to hit a reflection you didn't see put up prior to them flying. Something isn't right there.

Yeah. I just like having ways out of room hinder in general, and since RoF was that way for so long, we had already added counters for most circumstances so that it wasn't much of an issue. I don't think I really agree with the decision to revert RoF to begin with. Reasonable minds can differ though.

In the situation you describe, if you're all being trampled-fked, it probably doesn't matter if Aegoth flies, tumbles, or whatever. You're already going down, and no one can brazier him back if you're all prone. If you're not prone, then I would say heila/tentacle is the counter, yes. Then someone has to paralyse or prone him and keep him from flying again that way.

Aegoth

Can we like.. leave Aegoth alone? Plenty of other magi to target.

Atalkez

You’re just the scapegoat.

#NerfAerial2018

Makarios

My inclination here is less that retardation needs sweeping changes and more that we just made it a bit too safe to use with the hard LoS into retardation adjustments.

Alrena

Makarios said:

My inclination here is less that retardation needs sweeping changes and more that we just made it a bit too safe to use with the hard LoS into retardation adjustments.

While that may be true, reversing the LoS changes would give you Team Bonko situations again with delph snipes from adjacent, as well as still making it all the worse for whichever team did not drop ret (or wasn't ready for it either way).

I don't recall in the past that LoS was very useful in dropping retardation by killing the magi, rather it was usually used BY the magi and pals to pick out those who could dampen it, or other high priority targets. Won't solve any of the aforementioned issues, methinks, just put us a step back again.

Rangor

Retardation ain't so bad. Just another layer most people don't have experience dealing with. Could use better counters. For example if I get up and dampen, it never gets retardation first. 

Tesha

@Makarios I think there are lots of LoS that aren't stopped by ret. Arrows are just about the only thing I can think of that isn't. Breathstream, soulspear, lightning, choke, crush, doppleganger. 

Ret's being used a lot more now than it was a few months ago, so I think there will be a bit of a learning curve for people who don't fight in it often enough to adjust as rapidly as people who fight in it daily.

Kogan

While I'd agree there is a learning curve for fighting in it period. Prop/sweep/trample/fly for free/holo should not be a thing and requires 0 prior knowledge to execute in my opinion. You could literally tell someone to dor just about all of those and be effective to a decent extent. Sure I can quake to remove the prop. Line of sight changes don't really fix this since most groups wait to drop ret in their room and keep it  adjacent. Not to mention its normally rooms where there is one room in LoS, the adjacent one, and no other way to force the fight but to get adjacent or fly in. Can now suppress from adjacent and cube I suppose, but it still doesn't address that I can't even risk entering the room unless we want to see who can cheese the fastest. I think the problem does boil down to ret needing sweeping changes to how other abilities work inside of it. I don't think any amount of line of sight changes will fix this. As raiders already have the advantage of being able to pick the room, and can pick one where line of sight is going to result in me getting delphed out and not them.