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Comments
http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/4597/retardation
Now that reverb can be dampened from adjacent and cubes thrown you can actually move adjacent to the entrenched ret team and attempt line of sight or concussion beckon.
Unlike before where the mage could drop ret adjacent, then when the opposing team moved they wouldn't be able to block before getting beckoned.
Lack of melee because your only option is "don't enter the room" isn't what I meant!
(And my comment wasn't about lack of LoS but lack of totems, ret, etc., to which ranged attacks are only one counter of many!)
Edit: Embrace death***
Now, I'm not knocking Syndra or Mhaldor at all, it just happened to be her that shouted it (and rightly so, given her MoW status) but @Shirszae makes a huge amount of sense here. There is no definitive win scenario for the defending team. Sure, disarm 3 tanks and wait it out for the sanction to drop, but the raiding team holds all the cards. Some may say that's as it should be as they are initiating the conflict and to a point that is correct, but their team can be wiped out time and time again yet one decent group melee and the tank explodes and they get their bragging rights.
We had something similar in Hashan a few weeks back, we expelled the raiders fully on 3 occasions but they returned within the sanction time, succeeded in one big melee fight, exploded the tank and left with the "win".
I really think we need that definitive win scenario for the defending team, a point of no return climax (No jokes, Xaden) where we can say "Yes, we defended and we won"
There is the issue that the raiding team can keep losing over and over in engagements, keep having tanks disarmed, and continue to come back - they may even grab another sanction and continue to place tanks. I have defended against raiding groups that had to use four tanks and two sanction phases back to back before they were able to blow one successfully. Who can claim the win in this case? Either team can have a case for claiming it - and that's perfectly fine.
The main issue I have with your post is that I do not see a reason why you need to have a definite win condition at all. Why? When raiders struggle with coordination and lose two tanks, then finally pull it together for that last melee fight, blow the tank, and feel proud that they were able to overcome the odds they were facing (though in reality, wait out until people qq) - are they not allowed to brag about it? Similarly, for the very defenders they were fighting against, are the defenders not allowed to comment on how they completely bested the raiders several times in a row, toe to toe? Why are they not allowed to do this simultaneously? Why can't we have the two sides disagree on who wins? Each side should be able to think and operate for themselves - I don't see why a shout claiming victory from the opposing team suddenly redefines your perspective of who came out ahead in the battles.
For one side to always clearly win, the other side always has to lose. This is obvious, but it doesn't seem like people realize this. In my experience, it is best if both sides have some reason to claim they achieved some sort of win, because this encourages positivism and further participation in the future. In the end, I really just see nothing wrong with the exchange of shouts in your post. Both sides have a reason to claim victory, and feel that their time and energy was not wasted - and that is fantastic.
I feel like there should be one but it can't be as simple as wiping/disarming because then you'll just have guards moved in practically every raid.
ETA; couldn't come up with a climax joke on the spot, sorry Sobby.
Other possibility, I'm not sure if disarming a tank currently penalizes the sanction timer. I feel like disarming 2 tanks, unless it's some weird situation where the raiders are killing everyone and just delaying the tank to have a giant sanction timer, should probably be enough to kill a sanction timer.
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
Certain raid groups come in with 9 lives. Kill one and they will be right back. All they need to do is keep the pressure on while their tank builds. Most raiders dont care about the deaths as they will make up for it later. We've all seen the consecutive deaths people can have in a raid...and they will keep on coming.
It has become a battle of attrition at this point.
I've seen raids against Ashtan where we may get several kills but it means nothing, they will keep on popping up and in and eventually our own less resilient group will fall. There is no way to bring the tank counter down nor any way to end the sanction.
All the defenders can do is either Ignore the raiders from the start and be mocked for it...or attempt to clear them out which, as described above, feels like an impossible task if they are determined enough. Unless you heavily have numbers/skills in your favor, then it is very likely they -will- get their tank.
@Iakimen does have a good point that the more you add in 'hard' win conditions, the more the other team has to concretely lose, though.
Almost every raid Hashan does on us has two tank attempts on us, because the first one gets disarmed pretty fast and then they regroup, pick a better spot or bring more people or whatever. If we added 'hard' win conditions for the defender, then Hashan (or whatever city is trying to raid as the underdog) would get wiped once and then not be able to try again, and then they'd get very little practice in these scenarios. I suggested once that maybe you should be able to deny a sanction more firmly, but then these groups wouldn't even get to ever place a tank. Is that ideal, either?
Maybe the solution is to make defending more satisfying in some other way, like with bigger rewards for success, though then you encourage guards every time like someone said earlier. Maybe you should simply get rewarded for participation, rather than success, but I have no idea how you do that beyond the players just being encouraging, and that relies on 6 cities having consistently encouraging population.
Maybe just fixing entrenchment fixes half of these issues, though.
Or maybe the secret solution is to ban people from ever talking about raids from either perspective, the shout/news post shit talk or excuse-making lately is tiring and makes me feel like I'm playing overwatch or something. If we (and I'm including myself) all just cared a lot less about raids it'd maybe not be an issue
I don't think hard capping post wipe is fair to the offensive force, unless some things are added to reduce class disparity in raids (ie: More than Magi can stop guard summon, more than Monk can stop radiance, etc). I think raiding without those two classes should be feasible, while right now it can make raiding miserable if you don't have them. The rewards for both sides are paltry, though. The XP reward is really tiny, and having a higher army rank doesn't actually convey much benefit. Anyone that is good at defending/raiding will already have disarm/detonate capabilities etc.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
How to reward defence without just rewarding guards is hard to say, though. Maybe reward actual PKs by defenders with something like the memento system, but we really need assist xp/system before we do that or 'support' classes are gonna be even more shafted.
City leadership sets up a general framework for defenders. Involved in X defenses you can buy more in the next credit sale. Simple recognition for extreme measures taken (aka repelling three tanks from a raid group) from higher ups. Possible rank advancement. Extra discount at city shops. A city-pattern ring that denotes extreme service. "I survived a four hour raid" shirts. From a general framework it's not hard to adapt it to varying situations.
There already exists a mechanical benefit for defense in experience, the same as you gain from succeeding in offense. You pay for not having initiative by having font and guards as possibilities. Maybe the mechanical stuff needs some slight tuning, but I'm not convinced there should be additional hard-coded effects.
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
Also - What Imaginary information? The one and only thing I mentioned with any importance was the raid on Hashan, which was accurate as I was there.
Edit: no mechanical gain, at least. Rp wise there is plenty. Hail darkness LIGHT AND FIRE