Cities

Illarion

@Keorin

Oh, then agreed.  Although my impression of @Verrucht was never that he was anti-PK, in fact I thought he seemed to have a pretty good understanding of how to manage PK-capable citizens in a non-aggressive city (which is a lot harder than it sounds).  My only issue is the turnover related one, I don't think org leaders should have an incumbency of > 50 IC years (at the outside).  I don't think it's healthy, and I think it's selfish. (I fully realize it doesn't feel that way, and I fully realize how irksome that word would be when org leadership is 90% turning yourself inside out for a bunch of passive-aggressive ingrates who aren't even smart enough to appreciate the amazing job you do for them day in day out, nonetheless: it is.  And often you only get the clarity of thought to realize that it is once you step down.)

My gut feeling about this thread is that there's a lot of people trying to come up with narrative, or other reasons why Cyrene needs to "change", when really its just frustration at the stagnant leadership.  Which is totally valid, but in an OOC forum (as opposed to if you were trying to build political support in game) presenting it that way seems like not entirely clear-eyed thinking.

Prythe

Kiet said:

What exactly needs to be 'shaken up' about Cyrene, though? We both know that Cyrene changing is the least likely thing possible in the game. You could place literally anyone as Imperiate and it'll make absolutely no difference to Cyrene's direction.

Cyrene only needs leaders to keep them running smoothly, and for that it hardly matters how long someone's been there.

I don't know that is true. 

I have watched Verrucht in action now for about a year.

He is more adept as a Leader than any I have ever seen in this game, bar none - and that includes Covenant who was without a doubt, the best of the best.

Okay, tied with Covenant. Nobody is better than Covenant. But yes, Verrucht is that good.

Prythe

Mathilda said:

That might not be good for the game as a whole, though. As has been touched upon before in this thread, Cyrene has a tendency to shut out conflict (even though it isn't an "official policy"). This forms a bubble around Cyrene and its players, and increasingly it is as if Cyrene is a separate game from Achaea that just happens to share the same world.

@Kogan
@Shirszae
@Dochitha
@Salisa

And now @Vika

All, and more, are able to see their fair share of conflict. No Cyrenian law keeps them from conflict. 

Mathilda

And yet for each one of those, there is at least once Cyrenian who thinks they should be completely excluded from combat. The live Q&A was just one example; I've had the experience of a Cyrenian berating me in tells after we chased a Mhaldorian into Cyrene (and then all of us promptly getting out).

There is a strong anti-PK culture in Cyrene, and to ignore that is not good.

Verrucht

I'm not super interested in engaging on the forums, mostly because I feel like there's a pretty hilarious amount of misinformation and just utter garbage throughout most of this thread that's sprinkled with enough facts that trying to untangle it would be pretty meaningless. (after writing edit: lol I guess I did want to engage)

@Illarion - I understand people's issues with long term leadership, but I feel that stability is undervalued. The want for people to shake things up, merely to have them shaken up is selfish and purely for their own want their own desires. I feel that in general people in Cyrene appreciate the stability, even if they don't always appreciate the source of it. If I felt like a large contingent of Cyrene wanted me to step down, I probably would. I only say probably because I'd like there to be a reason beyond "you've been a leader for too longer". In the end, I don't necessarily think I'm right for staying on as I have, but I don't necessarily think I'm wrong either. Perhaps there's something to be said for just stepping down and letting things fall where they may, but I've got a few things I'd like to see completed before that happens. I guess we'll see.

As for the rest, I don't view Cyrene to be uninvolved in world affairs or unwilling to actually participate when things might actually matter, but it's not for the rest of the world to determine what really matters to Cyrene, either. For all those who talk about how unengaged we are, I think you have a pretty short memory, as I did at least in a small part help manage and run the Master Shrine Coordination clan. A fair number of Cyrenians participated as well. Perhaps not with the militaristic zeal of some of the other cities, but with heart and the plucky courage of people who have chosen to do the right thing rather than had it forced upon them.

I mean, I guess you can say Cyrene is anti-combat if you want but I feel like some of the actual combatants of Cyrene have come forth and highlighted that this isn't necessarily the case. Nor do I necessarily feel that the Senate is only interested in creating avenues for whatever it is that the Senate approves of. The Senate, through the meetings and the like works to represent the voices of Cyrene but also the spirit of what makes Cyrene special and has kept it special to us throughout all these years. That means that you may not finding to your liking, and that's okay. But for those who talk about wanting more democracy in Cyrene, please remember that in a true democracy it's the tyranny of the majority. Minority views don't necessarily get taken into account.

People keep talking about conflict, and the myopic and narrow way that you have decided to view conflict is both laughable and kind of insulting to this game. If you think conflict is just people doing a combat at each other, maybe you should fuck off to somewhere as basic as you are. The realms abound with conflict, and a lot of it doesn't even need to involve another person.

You can laugh and snicker all you want, but someone struggling to create a painting using just words is undergoing a conflict. Someone working to perfect their textual dance routines and put it into words the evoke emotion and playful and delicate imagery in your mind is involved in conflict. People making delicious food recipes, conflict. People seeking to make fun events for people, conflict. It's all a struggle, a disagreement and it's normally with ourselves. This place is so much more than city vs city bullshit and people always boil it down, because it's about what THEY find enjoyable. Well, guess what a large portion of Achaea has spoken and they find this life that you disparage to be what they find enjoyable.

Lastly, since it just came up @Mathilda - yeah, but they're wrong. I mean, nobody can help that people are wrong sometimes. There's no way to be 100% excluded from combat. While I'm sure there are people who don't want to be involved in combat in any way, I would say that most people understand that it might happen. If you want to call that anti-PK culture because they don't want to be PK'd cool, that's okay. You're wrong, but that's okay. The second thing you highlighted is more just "maybe fuck off out of Cyrene with that shit" culture which I'm both super supportive of and also happy with.

---

If you want to discuss or debate any of this, feel free to contact me. You can even get a group together to tell me I'm wrong or something if you want, but I don't really feel like a stupid back and forth over the forums (after writing edit: idk maybe i do now)

Keorin

Prythe said:

All, and more, are able to see their fair share of conflict. No Cyrenian law keeps them from conflict. 

Duels+Annwyn are pvp, sure, but they're not exactly conflict, on their own. 

As for laws, shrine offense is banned by law, raiding is banned by law, border skirmishes that avoid the city are de facto banned, defending other cities is banned (there have been several pushes to overturn this even from less prolific fighters, but it consistently gets shut down do to risk of bringing conflict back to the city), if you're mark or dauntless, you're legally prohibited from staying in the city if someone wants to fight you (since it started a small raid once), there's been an interim ban on participating in crusades since they've been released been released, and pretty much anything else gets brought in under "can't violate the sanctity of Cyrene" if a Senator doesn't like it. 

I don't even think all those things should be allowed, but saying that there's no law is just plain wrong. And I've personally seen half your list of people argue for less limitations on what we can do

Verrucht

Keorin said:

Prythe said:

All, and more, are able to see their fair share of conflict. No Cyrenian law keeps them from conflict. 

Duels+Annwyn are pvp, sure, but they're not exactly conflict, on their own. 

As for laws, shrine offense is banned by law, raiding is banned by law, border skirmishes that avoid the city are de facto banned, defending other cities is banned (there have been several pushes to overturn this even from less prolific fighters, but it consistently gets shut down do to risk of bringing conflict back to the city), if you're mark or dauntless, you're legally prohibited from staying in the city if someone wants to fight you (since it started a small raid once), there's been an interim ban on participating in crusades since they've been released been released, and pretty much anything else gets brought in under "can't violate the sanctity of Cyrene" if a Senator doesn't like it. 

I don't even think all those things should be allowed, but saying that there's no law is just plain wrong. And I've personally seen half your list of people argue for less limitations on what we can do

Oh man, I better kick @Shirszae out since all that stuff is banned by law. I totally forgot it's all BANNED BY LAW. Since it's not (ok some is, but not the parts I'm talking about).

Solnir

ez solution: leave cyrene

Lenn

Cyrene is pretty full of people who will tell you X is illegal, disrespectful, or wrong, regardless of how right they actually are. Some people even seem to patrol the city looking for people to scold. Not everybody does this, but it does contribute to people thinking the city is very restrictive. My character calls it bullying. ^^

Aralaya

Solution 1: It's not your city why do you care
Solution 2: if it is your city you can care I guess
Solution 3: delete Cyrene

Mathilda

The ideas being reinforced by Cyrene, particularly the one wherein you can treat Achaea like two separate games (the PK and the non-PK sides), is problematic for the game as a whole. So, even if you're not a Cyrenian player, you do have a vested interest in discouraging these ideas.

And yes, these ideas are being reinforced. Just check this thread for the replies that insinuate "if you are an enemy, you do not exist."

Krypton

Lenn said:

Cyrene is pretty full of people who will tell you X is illegal, disrespectful, or wrong, regardless of how right they actually are. Some people even seem to patrol the city looking for people to scold. Not everybody does this, but it does contribute to people thinking the city is very restrictive. My character calls it bullying. ^^

Ya, in Cyrene, we each get assigned one person we're supposed to monitor and heckle.

Like, for example, my job is to get on Jinsun's case 24/7. Other people get assigned Lenn, Rip, Frederich, etc.

Atalkez

Dang, I was assigned a shadow? Who dat?

Alrena

One of the hardest things I did in Achaea was stepping down as CL. I cited the very same reasons. Sure, a small loud group was happy to demand I be replaced for most of my reign, but the majority? You don't hear those. Most people frankly don't care. You have a status quo that you think should be preserved at all costs, but it's not -wrong- to have things shaken up, to try something new, no matter how small or large it is. So long as people do what they do with the organisation's benefit in mind, it's not selfish nor is it wrong. I don't think I was wrong to give Eleusis a bit of a radical turn, and the current Eleusian leadership isn't wrong to blunt that a fair bit again.

I was CL for just one RL year. I made mistakes, I did good things. Most of all, it was a very enriching experience for my character, and myself. I stepped down because even though there was no real successor and there was no loud demand for my removal (or at least it was the lowest in ages), I still stepped down because a game does need change, no matter how minor it is. 

In short: Because you've been in charge for too long is the absolute best reason to step down. You'll rarely accept any other reason and you'll find plenty of reasons for yourself not to step down. I think most people who were once in charge can attest to that.

Verrucht

Mathilda said:

The ideas being reinforced by Cyrene, particularly the one wherein you can treat Achaea like two separate games (the PK and the non-PK sides), is problematic for the game as a whole. So, even if you're not a Cyrenian player, you do have a vested interest in discouraging these ideas.

And yes, these ideas are being reinforced. Just check this thread for the replies that insinuate "if you are an enemy, you do not exist."

I mean, that's a choice people have made and that's a valid way for them to choose whether or not to interact with enemies. I mean, nobody is required to interact with specific other people in Achaea. While that's not how I treat enemies, I don't see why it's "anti-PK" or "anti-combat" to want to do so. It's making a roleplaying choice for their character to not interact with city enemies. That's not the same thing as trying to split it into two different games.

Makarios

For a slightly different perspective, its worth considering that Cyrene was also the battlefield for the biggest Tsol'teth attack during the Black Wave event, and very much put itself in that position knowing there would be likely consequences of that nature. Though there may or may not be merit to some of the complaints here, Cyrene not being willing to put itself on the line when it comes down to things they consider important isn't something I personally feel is true.

Keorin

Verrucht said:

Oh man, I better kick @Shirszae out since all that stuff is banned by law. I totally forgot it's all BANNED BY LAW. Since it's not (ok some is, but not the parts I'm talking about).

Most of this is explicitly posted, the rest I've seen either claimed/enforced by people in authority. It's also true that how things get enforced can depend pretty heavily on the situation and the enforcer, especially given the way the broader rules are enforced, which can make it pretty hard to guess what's gonna get you in trouble.

You have a particular style of enforcement where you're happy to not write things down and enforce things based on what you see as common sense, it seems like. I don't say that as a criticism, there are plenty of instances where it makes things run much more smoothly, but when it comes to grey areas, it can make it very hard to correctly understand what's allowed and what isn't, especially when enforcement appears inconsistent, since it's not as if I can look at the written laws and understand how things will be enforced in practice.

Krypton

No one will argue that Cyrene doesn't want involvement -- or hell, a central role, even -- in major, admin-developed storylines. But plenty of Cyrenians are boisterous in their resentment toward regular players trying to drag them into their own, no-admin-involved conflicts.

Verrucht

Keorin said:

Verrucht said:

Oh man, I better kick @Shirszae out since all that stuff is banned by law. I totally forgot it's all BANNED BY LAW. Since it's not (ok some is, but not the parts I'm talking about).

Most of this is explicitly posted, the rest I've seen either claimed/enforced by people in authority. It's also true that how things get enforced can depend pretty heavily on the situation and the enforcer, especially given the way the broader rules are enforced, which can make it pretty hard to guess what's gonna get you in trouble.

You have a particular style of enforcement where you're happy to not write things down and enforce things based on what you see as common sense, it seems like. I don't say that as a criticism, there are plenty of instances where it makes things run much more smoothly, but when it comes to grey areas, it can make it very hard to correctly understand what's allowed and what isn't, especially when enforcement appears inconsistent, since it's not as if I can look at the written laws and understand how things will be enforced in practice.

Basically it boils down to this. I expect Cyrenians to have a Cyrenian* reason to do things and I always expect them to take the high ground. That's it.

Shirszae didn't get in trouble because it wasn't Aegis screwing with Targossas, it was Aegis responding to Targossas screwing with them. I felt like that's a good and proper reason to kick down a shrine or two or do a little raidypoo. That coupled with her willingness to duel for bounties and personally accept any repercussions spoke very well of her actions and intentions. As long as there's a good reason other than just I aim to do us a combat, it should be fine.

(*this is where people have understandable confusion, but in the end it's one of those things where in the end it is or isn't Cyrenian and someone(s) has to make that call)

Verrucht

Krypton said:

No one will argue that Cyrene doesn't want involvement -- or hell, a central role, even -- in major, admin-developed storylines. But plenty of Cyrenians are boisterous in their resentment toward regular players trying to drag them into their own, no-admin-involved conflicts.

Yeah, but that's much more fundamental question. How much am I required to make your experience fun to the detriment of my own? I mean, I don't really have a good answer, and while I'm sure other people probably feel like they do, I've never heard a good and definitive explanation of why we're required to accede to the demands of others when we don't personally find that to be enjoyable. Again, not to say that there's going to be zero of that, because that's not realistic but is it really wrong for people to want to minimize the experiences they don't find enjoyable in the game that they play?

Caelan

Verrucht said:

Basically it boils down to this. I expect Cyrenians to have a Cyrenian* reason to do things and I always expect them to take the high ground. That's it.

Shirszae didn't get in trouble because it wasn't Aegis screwing with Targossas, it was Aegis responding to Targossas screwing with them. I felt like that's a good and proper reason to kick down a shrine or two or do a little raidypoo. That coupled with her willingness to duel for bounties and personally accept any repercussions spoke very well of her actions and intentions. As long as there's a good reason other than just I aim to do us a combat, it should be fine.

(*this is where people have understandable confusion, but in the end it's one of those things where in the end it is or isn't Cyrenian and someone(s) has to make that call)

I know I may sound biased here but... @Shirszae is amazing.  Even as 'distant' as she can get sometimes, very much impressed with her and while it's a credit to her personally, it's also a credit to the those around her that let her develop that for herself.  So for that, I say thanks.

Krypton

I know, and that's fine with me; I was just responding to Mak saying Cyrene has taken up arms under some circumstances. But those circumstances are not really IC.

Cyrene will battle the Tsol'teth because OOCly they know it will result in shiny, new lore and/or rewards. Battling errant raiders from Mhaldor will do no such thing, so "leave us the f*** alone".

Keorin

Verrucht said:

Basically it boils down to this. I expect Cyrenians to have a Cyrenian* reason to do things and I always expect them to take the high ground. That's it.

I mean, this is sort of the fundamental problem, though. This moves Cyrene from being a place with rule of law, to a place where law is determined by a case-by-case value judgement from an unassailable leader. This is certainly valid roleplay, but it's also pretty natural that can lead to feelings of being stifled by groups that disagree with that value judgement.

Probably more of an issue is that this all hugely depends on how you consider game mechanics OOCly. You say "take the high road," but Cyrene is a city with some of the most prolific hunters in the game, that regularly slaughter plenty of sapient and arguably innocent people, for fun and profit. That's not exactly a high road, unless you consider denizens to be fundamentally different from adventurers (which plenty of people do). Personally, I consider that to be a fundamentally OOC distinction, and so it's pretty frustrating to have that enshrined in unwritten, but all-important, law.

Verrucht

Krypton said:

I know, I was just responding to Mak saying Cyrene takes up arms in some circumstances. But those circumstances are not exactly IC.

Cyrene will battle the Tsol'teth because OOCly they know it will result in shiny, new lore and/or rewards. Battling errant raiders from Mhaldor will do no such thing, so "leave us the f*** alone".

I think that's a bit of an oversimplification. To me it's more about stepping up towards actual threats for actual reasons. I guess maybe bad on me if I don't think some things are actual reasons?

From an OOC perspective, though, it's not just about that but instead allowing Cyrenians the choice to participate in the large world event if they wish to, albeit possibly with some restrictions. If what you say is really people's motivations, so be it, but I don't think it's really likely for a majority of people.

Verrucht

Keorin said:

Verrucht said:

Basically it boils down to this. I expect Cyrenians to have a Cyrenian* reason to do things and I always expect them to take the high ground. That's it.

I mean, this is sort of the fundamental problem, though. This moves Cyrene from being a place with rule of law, to a place where law is determined by a case-by-case value judgement from an unassailable leader. This is certainly valid roleplay, but it's also pretty natural that can lead to feelings of being stifled by groups that disagree with that value judgement.

Probably more of an issue is that this all hugely depends on how you consider game mechanics OOCly. You say "take the high road," but Cyrene is a city with some of the most prolific hunters in the game, that regularly slaughter plenty of sapient and arguably innocent people, for fun and profit. That's not exactly a high road, unless you consider denizens to be fundamentally different from adventurers (which plenty of people do). Personally, I consider that to be a fundamentally OOC distinction, and so it's pretty frustrating to have that enshrined in unwritten, but all-important, law.

Pretending that denizens are the same things as adventurers isn't really something that I'm going to entertain ICly or OOCly. There's so much to differentiate them within the game itself and they even have a different term. They are an other, a lesser and everything that the game has taught us from day 1 has driven that point home. The game intends us to treat denizens a certain way and people do.

Kogan

Lenn said:

Cyrene is pretty full of people who will tell you X is illegal, disrespectful, or wrong, regardless of how right they actually are. Some people even seem to patrol the city looking for people to scold. Not everybody does this, but it does contribute to people thinking the city is very restrictive. My character calls it bullying. ^^

Telling you that you can't be nude at CC is not bullying.

Keorin

Verrucht said:

Pretending that denizens are the same things as adventurers isn't really something that I'm going to entertain ICly or OOCly. There's so much to differentiate them within the game itself and they even have a different term. They are an other, a lesser and everything that the game has taught us from day 1 has driven that point home. The game intends us to treat denizens a certain way and people do.

Obviously there are differences, but that doesn't mean that denizens aren't intended to be treated as people ICly. I'd say the opposite, that nearly every faction, story, and event in the game has suggested that they're not intended to be treated ICly as so different as to not even be worth considering. There's a reason why numerous organizations have made rules on who you can hunt, why one of the central admin-created terms in Mhaldor and Targossas' last war was the enslavement/freeing of denizen citizens, why the last small event centered around denizen lives, and the tragedy of their loss. 

This, really, is my big problem with Cyrene. It's not that the city has chosen a bad role within the world, but that it consistently feels like the prevailing attitudes stem from OOC views, more then actual roleplay. The idea that Cyrene could ever be seriously threatened by any of the many cities that wish to see it conquered or destroyed is dismissed because we know OOCly that war mechanics don't allow for any sort of loss that's not self-imposed. We're happy to participate in world events, and even risk the city to do so, but if it's not an event, people get OOCly upset at having to defend against a few raids, to the point of hoping the admin will stop it. In my experience, I've found this attitude to be almost uniquely Cyrenian - every other faction is built on the roleplay first (after all, we know as players that Good/Evil/Chaos/Nature/Darkness are never going to win, but we still claim it's possibly ICly). Cyrene should be able to choose any path it likes in the game, but that should be determined by roleplay, every step of the way.

Dochitha

Good evil chaos evil are not the only paths. Cyrene has a path. And majority of the democracy has chosen the path, which it what it is today. Can the path develop, for sure. But you gotta play along. 

Lenn

I'm sure an admin can weigh in, but as I understand it, most differences between adventurers and sentient denizens are due to technical limitations. The major fluff difference is adventurers will wander the world at whim, while denizens like to stay at home and mind their own business.

@Kogan You can tell me OOCly if you want, but I did say it's my character's reaction, that is roleplayed. They might not always make sense in a vacuum, but I like to think most of her decisions make sense to her character. That said, I'm not really the one I was talking about at all, or else I wouldn't have bothered to bring it up.

Tysandr

No real reason to keep bashing Cyrene.

What is this discussion going to accomplish? People end up in Cyrene expecting to be Cyrenian; if you really want to do something about it, evangelise people away from the city.