Cities

Krypton

Daeir said:

a fairly large section of the in-game population is a formidable foe, especially when it cannot be fought explicitly.

So you want to act on our purely OOC characteristics?

Targossas has >2000 villagers, according to the war terms; and you have the entire denizen population of Sapience you can focus on swaying to your ideals.

Antonius

Daeir said:

I don't see what the difference is.

Mhaldor rejects Targossian ethos and ideology in favour of Sartan's because self improvement, hegemony, betterment of Creation, etc. Ashtan rejects it because subjugate everything under the Ascendant's will to power the growth of the Infernal Throne. Eleusis rejects it because grr cities paving over Nature hurts the world, people should live in harmony, etc, and then Cyrene rejects it because they'd rather assert their own way over the wisdom and gifts of the Bloodsworn Gods.

Any way you roll the dice, the rejection is happening. There is no neutrality in saying "we do not agree with you". There is a citystate saying that "our laws and our culture is superior to the mandate of your gods and your faith".

That is not neutral. What you call them is what you think of them, not what they actually are. There is no conceivable universe where the rejection of Devotion is not anything but a grave, onerous sin from a Targossian perspective. Pawing it off as something "not that bad" is precisely the kind of unassailable glint that I was discussing earlier in the thread. Cyrene is not immune from the consequences of their actions just because they are not an overt, combative threat.

We don't fight the other four cities because they reject our ideals in favour of their own. We fight Ashtan, Mhaldor and Hashan because of the specific ideals they possess instead of ours. We fight Eleusis because they continue to antagonise us and are now a hindrance to the work we're supposed to be doing.

Targossas' goal is not to spread the teachings of the Bloodsworn and have them adopted by everyone in Achaea. There will be plenty of individuals, villages and even cities who disagree with them and decide "No, thank you, that's not for me." and that is perfectly okay as long as they're still in accordance with the natural and intended state of Creation (as defined by the teachings of Good).

Jurixe

Having been on both sides of the argument, I think that all opinions expressed here re: Cyrene in particular are valid. It's not an issue that has a single correct answer - and to some, it isn't even one that needs an answer. What it comes down to is an individual's desire in how they want to play the game and how, by extension, factions in the game should be for the best playing experience, but you're never going to get everyone to agree to that.

Cyrene, as has been said by many, is an excellent place for a beginner, for someone who doesn't know anything about fantasy beyond 'has magic and wears robes or swings a sword'. The city's helpfulness and camaraderie really is second to none, and I loved it when I started out there, many years ago. For those who want precisely that from their gametime - a relatively peaceful existence with friends and fighting some monsters and building a text house, and maybe sometimes the opportunity to participate in world events - it's great. I'm also incredibly jealous of the city's flavour and cool items.

But the wider world of Achaea is about stories, about grand narratives. Even as an individual, if you are playing for one of the five factions, you are contributing to an overarching story that is greater than your character's own life. If I talk to someone, if I host an event, it will always carry the connotations of my faction's ideals and, indirectly, advances the story. Mhaldor is making a move. What will Ashtan do? Will Targossas respond? What does this mean for Hashan, for Eleusis? 

Interactions as a member of any of these five factions, no matter how involved you are or aren't in the governance of the city, carry a weight that being a Cyrenian simply does not. Cyrene in its current incarnation is not built to stand toe-to-toe with any of the other cities, and I would suggest that most citizens of Cyrene are just fine with that. They live in their own little world with all the little dramas of bureaucracy and day-to-day living, and the conflicts of other cities of Sapience are just background noise. Conversely, I (and I suspect many others) treat Cyrene as essentially a city of denizens, but I like the shopping.

If Cyrene were wiped out tomorrow, it would register in the overarching story as a 'this is what happened in this year' single-line entry and conversational mentions about how people miss the baths. It's not, by any means, a statement that's meant to be insulting; simply a reflection of the impact I believe it would have in the grand narrative. Because there is no consequence in this tale to having or not having Cyrene as it stands currently as a city, as an ideology, other than the lack of shopping. There are many great stories within Cyrene's own book - ogre raids, helping denizens etc - but none of them will change the wider world. 

Cyrene embracing neutrality was an excellent step, but where I would have liked to see it go further is asserting itself as that bastion of neutrality and scholarship instead of pure 'leave us alone and we won't bother you'. I would have loved to see Cyrene take the lead on hosting world events ala the Lucretian or Asterian Restoration, giving the feuding cities of Achaea an arena to compete without - necessarily - bloodshed. It could use its considerable wealth to offer hard-to-refuse prizes as incentive, and it could gather to its bosom the scholars and artists that want a safe haven to discuss, theorise, lecture and create, becoming specialists in scholarship, commerce and artistry - three aspects that have always been Cyrene's forte. Become an enemy and you lose the opportunity to enter this neutral arena and all the services that Cyrene offers.

Some variant of this is already in place, but not in a concerted effort that makes it really matter. It would take some time to get there, and Cyrene would really have to work to make what they offer far more attractive than meeting in some faraway offplane place, but I think it could be done if that was the intent.

As always, of course, this is by no means the only way to look at Cyrene's role in the world of Achaea, simply my own views from a position of wanting greater relevance for Achaea's largest city. But it is interesting that such a city exists and that its identity is something that can be entirely player driven if they wish it - the debate over its role is, in a way, a rare privilege that most other cities don't enjoy beyond a limited spectrum. This discussion has been fun for me to read and chime in on - that is what this forum is for, after all - as long as discussions are kept civil.  

P.S. I agree that simple deletion is not the answer, and would in fact merely dilute factions further or reduce the playerbase overall. People are in Cyrene because they enjoy that style of play, and can't be simply browbeaten to enjoy life as a Targossan/Mhaldorian/Ashtani/what have you.

Dochitha

Correcting just in case some newbies are reading, Cyrene is not just a place for Beginners. RANKINGS <anything> we can see Cyrenians on the leaderboard, as well as mini games or large scale events. Cyrenne has recognized top combatants as well. Cyrene is not a little world for a little guy, Cyrene is HUGE. Player base is huge. Story is deep. How Cyrene becomes what it is today with it's unique ground comes a long way. Cyrene is a city of choice for people who seek this uniqueness.

I strongly agree with the "Neutrality" part of Cyrene is a great potential for development into greater relevance. Sweet spot!

Telendrieth

It was also something desired by a fair portion of the Shallamese playerbase as well. The difference is that the majority of Cyrenians are perfectly content with their city, so the whole Shallam solution wouldn't work. Hell, it'd probably backfire and cause the displaced folks to quit.. leading to an even smaller playerbase and amplification of issues.

Mathilda

If a fair portion of Shallamese had wanted to change, then Shallam wouldn't have had to be wholesale replaced -- the population then could have just reformed the city. I assume they didn't, hence the admins bringing the city down, and rebuilding from the ground up to remove the good for the Good.

Jurixe

Dochitha said:

Correcting just in case some newbies are reading, Cyrene is not just a place for Beginners. RANKINGS <anything> we can see Cyrenians on the leaderboard, as well as mini games or large scale events. Cyrenne has recognized top combatants as well. Cyrene is not a little world for a little guy, Cyrene is HUGE. Player base is huge. Story is deep. How Cyrene becomes what it is today with it's unique ground comes a long way. Cyrene is a city of choice for people who seek this uniqueness.

I strongly agree with the "Neutrality" part of Cyrene is a great potential for development into greater relevance. Sweet spot!

I am not in any way casting aspersions on the individual ability of Cyrenians - you're quite right, Cyrenians do incredibly well in world games and event posts. I'm not up to date on Cyrenian top combatants, so I won't comment on that. But those abilities are largely individual talents and interests, and not, say, a goal or an example that the city as an organisation strives to reinforce. Currently, as far as an organisational outlook goes, the image that Cyrene projects is 'we do our own thing'.

What I'm saying is that Cyrene should own that identity as being a hub for the best shopkeepers/explorers/artists and not only try to position themselves as the bastion of such, but also use it to their advantage. If you want the best commerce, you go to Cyrene. If you want the most knowledgeable explorers/information on an area/history, you go to Cyrene. If you want the services of the best designers/artists/chefs, you go to Cyrene. Cyrene currently is very good in all these areas, but I think it can consolidate its identity there with just a bit more work and some good PR - similar to the way the Hashani academy for alchemists gained such a good reputation despite not being an actual House. 

There can be more done for Cyrene to assert itself as the authority on such areas on a larger scale, and I think it's not something out of the realm of possibility as it's already halfway there. Hold more world awards; create, curate and collect for your libraries; organise world events and invite the cities to meet on neutral territory. The latter is mainly to safeguard Cyrene from the cities' combatants - to some degree, each city should want to have representation in a global event and ideally would (at least for the duration of that event) rein the fighters in. Few things get people more excited than the chance to compete against one another, particularly in the name of your own faction, and events like those would also give Cyrene prestige. People can still do their own thing if they want to, but a slight shift in focus could make a world of difference in giving the city a purpose to rally behind and be proud of, as well as a reputation to uphold and protect.

There is so much that a neutral city can do, especially one with the resources and talents that Cyrene has - it just takes a more concerted effort.

Telendrieth

Mathilda said:

If a fair portion of Shallamese had wanted to change, then Shallam wouldn't have had to be wholesale replaced -- the population then could have just reformed the city. I assume they didn't, hence the admins bringing the city down, and rebuilding from the ground up to remove the good for the Good.

Not entirely true. You have history, lore, divine, and a whole lot of other baggage that would make the transition painful and possibly unable to happen. The events of the time really allowed for the fluid transition into a new ideology of Good, and the Bloodsworn to really give it the backing it deserved. There are some points where I dislike Targ, but having a city with space marine style ideology (maybe a bit of a stretch) is super awesome, and I do like how everything came out.

Keorin

Reyson said:

For the record, Cyrene does have some very cool people, as I mentioned!

The last time I really tried to do anything as a kind of enemy-that-goads-you-into-doing-better thing, the person I had interacted with (I broke in just to speak with that person and see if something could come of it) ended up getting yelled at pretty massively (and demoted, I think?) for not just crying for help right away or something. That was sad to hear. It was a good conversation, and a really great moment, but I've kinda stayed away cuz I don't wanna get the cool people in trouble with my cooties or whatever it is Cyrenians are afraid of where Mhaldorians are concerned. 

Krypton said:

Off the top of my head, I do not recall a single CDF, let alone demotion, in the 10 years you've been enemied.

Lmao. Cooties or no cooties, that situation you're referring to, was indisputably an Act of Treason/Insubordination, if we really wanted to be hardasses about the rules.

As the person in question, I'm kind of baffled on how what happened was some kind of treason. @Reyson shows up at Keorin, and asks where @Shirszae is, because he doesn't recognize the room. Keorn tells him that I'm not about to say, and also she's pretty sure there are guards there. She also says that he should leave before he gets killed, but he's clearly not an active threat, and she doesn't exactly feel like getting someone killed right then (partly because she actually doesn't like killing much, partly because I feel like it's gonna be way more interesting of an interaction if I don't jump to calling for help. Plus, the tables seem to heavily suggest that you should try and solve similar situations nonviolently when possible). We end up talking tersely for a few minutes, at which point a security aide comes in and starts attacking him, so Keorin helps her kill him twice.

A few hours later, I was stripped of my war aideship and corresponding army rank, without warning or discussion.  Which I think was mostly just because the then-minister of war hated me, but still, treason? It's the first I'm hearing of that.

Aegoth

*sips tea*

Kiet

Dochitha said:

Correcting just in case some newbies are reading, Cyrene is not just a place for Beginners. RANKINGS <anything> we can see Cyrenians on the leaderboard, as well as mini games or large scale events. Cyrenne has recognized top combatants as well. Cyrene is not a little world for a little guy, Cyrene is HUGE. Player base is huge. Story is deep. How Cyrene becomes what it is today with it's unique ground comes a long way. Cyrene is a city of choice for people who seek this uniqueness.

I strongly agree with the "Neutrality" part of Cyrene is a great potential for development into greater relevance. Sweet spot!

It has some nice culture/localized RP, but it's ultimately not the place anyone striving for 'greatness' ends up. Not everyone wants greatness, of course, but I'd say even slice of life rp is better served by a meaningful backdrop. I wouldn't call Cyrene's story 'deep', since it's purposefully kept light and fluffy.

Having Cyrenians on the leaderboard isn't particularly impressive, though--there's only six cities and Cyrene is by far the biggest. Off the top of my head, the top 5 XP rankings have no Cyrenians, and the top 10-20 combatants in the game are definitely mostly not Cyrenian. Obviously, you're probably the best combatant in Cyrene and definitely up there, but who else? When people think of great combatants (either presently or over the ages), there's barely any Cyrenians in there. Ashtan/Mhaldor/Targallam/Eleusis dominate that list.

Other than that, you have Krypton being a good explorer/lore guy, and then... not much else. The big movers and shakers, RP wise, have never been Cyrenian. The big figures in history haven't, either. Even the Asterian Restoration wasn't Cyrenian and that was like the ideal event for Cyrene to have come up with. Cyrene is almost completely isolated from the world, and that's fine if you want to avoid most of the world. But it does, by definition, make Cyrene less relevant.

Jurixe's point is that Cyrene could be the best at many things even with their neutrality. But they'd have to look at neutrality as more than just a way to avoid PK.

This isn't to say Cyrene has no plus sides. It's nice enough if you're allergic to conflict or your only interests are being an art performer in a house of art performers or some of the other niches Cyrene serves exclusively. I don't believe Cyrene should be deleted, those people would just likely quit the game. It's just dishonest to pretend Cyrene is something it's not. It's a little walled off suburb, not another manhattan.

Tysandr

The utility of a thread like this approaches

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You can take the people out of Cyrene, but you cannot take the Cyrene out of people.

Keorin

Aeryllin said:

Daeir said:

 No leader should have a tenure that spans literal IRL years, no matter how good they are.

I mean, honestly, why not?  If the people are happy and things are running smoothly - and by and large they are, else people wouldn't stay in the numbers they do - why not?  If it is not broken, why try to fix it?  You're more likely to make things worse than better.

There's a lot of fundamental issues with an unchanging government, I think, and Cyrene's more specifically, but there are two big ones in my mind.

First, it removes politics as a meaningful roleplay path. Becoming the leader of a city is one of the biggest aspirations you can have in a game like this, and in Cyrene, the deck is so stacked against anyone that's not already in ruling clique that it may as well be impossible. We've averaged an election every six months or so for the last few years, but the last three elections have all been for the same senate seat, which has finally gone to someone in the same house/family as the other senators. Political power is increasingly entrenched in a handful of players, who are likely to hold those positions, and have singular access to the stories and roleplay they provide, until they decide they're bored of it (which will be real-life years, most likely).

The even bigger issue, I think, is that it makes change next to impossible. The leaders of a city don't just pass day-to-day laws, they lead the roleplay and give energy to the city, and help push to make it better. I actually have a lot of OOC respect for a good chunk of Cyrene's leadership, but every senator we have up right now seems to have little energy or interest in much besides slice of life social rp with family and personal friends, and keeping the bureaucracy moving. I'll be the first to say that my ideas for what would make a good Cyrene might not be the best of it, but there are tons of people out there with ideas for how Cyrene can change and grow, and right now those people are very, very unlikely to ever be in a position where they can really do something about it. Change is the lifeblood of a game like this, the ability for people to bring new perspectives and new energy and shape the game into a better place. When leadership becomes stagnant, that becomes impossible.

As an anecdote, let's remember that we fairly recently had a relative political outsider win a senate race against someone who was the family of a sitting senator. While she was overall happy with the city, she had plenty of things she wasn't entirely happy with, that she wanted to change and make better. It took two weeks before she'd burned out and left to Targossas, because she didn't think she could put up with the real life years that she would have had to spend in opposition to the rest of the leadership in order to make change (in one case, she had to sit through getting berated by the other senators for daring to publicly disagree with Verrucht at an open senate meeting). She was replaced, of course, by that same spouse of a sitting senator, a member of the same house and social circles that all the rest of the leadership is in.

This thread probably gives a different impression, but I don't think that the central question is whether Cyrene should be like it is now, or be something fundamentally different. I think it's a question of whether Cyrene should stay -nearly exactly- how it is now, for years to come, or if it should try to grow and change and improve. And personally, I think that change and opportunities for change are the fundamental things that make telling stories in this world interesting.

Melodie

Kiet said:

The big movers and shakers, RP wise, have never been Cyrenian. The big figures in history haven't, either. Even the Asterian Restoration wasn't Cyrenian and that was like the ideal event for Cyrene to have come up with. Cyrene is almost completely isolated from the world, and that's fine if you want to avoid most of the world. But it does, by definition, make Cyrene less relevant.

ahem excuse u

Farrah

Daeir said:

Antonius said:

Daeir said:

I don't see what the difference is.

Mhaldor rejects Targossian ethos and ideology in favour of Sartan's because self improvement, hegemony, betterment of Creation, etc. Ashtan rejects it because subjugate everything under the Ascendant's will to power the growth of the Infernal Throne. Eleusis rejects it because grr cities paving over Nature hurts the world, people should live in harmony, etc, and then Cyrene rejects it because they'd rather assert their own way over the wisdom and gifts of the Bloodsworn Gods.

Any way you roll the dice, the rejection is happening. There is no neutrality in saying "we do not agree with you". There is a citystate saying that "our laws and our culture is superior to the mandate of your gods and your faith".

That is not neutral. What you call them is what you think of them, not what they actually are. There is no conceivable universe where the rejection of Devotion is not anything but a grave, onerous sin from a Targossian perspective. Pawing it off as something "not that bad" is precisely the kind of unassailable glint that I was discussing earlier in the thread. Cyrene is not immune from the consequences of their actions just because they are not an overt, combative threat.

Targossas' goal is not to spread the teachings of the Bloodsworn and have them adopted by everyone in Achaea. There will be plenty of individuals, villages and even cities who disagree with them and decide "No, thank you, that's not for me." and that is perfectly okay as long as they're still in accordance with the natural and intended state of Creation (as defined by the teachings of Good).

Absolutely, but is a citystate that knew and was taught those things, and then knowingly rejected it and aggressively denied a prominent means to spread them further acting in accordance with those ideals? That's the core issue here, and something that is very different from what happened with New Hope.

I'm also not inclined to say that a city leader's position is absolute truth, or perhaps even informed perspective, sadly enough. There's been some pretty shonky CL's over the course of Achaea's history (especially recently). A CL can be very good in some domains, and very bad in others. Better to weight people's opinions on what they present, rather than who they supposedly are.

Who said anything about absolute truth? I said it's silly to say there's no conceivable way blah blah when a former CL and current OH is saying the opposite. You're free to disagree on what should be. Your language of absolutes, including misframing my comment to be about "absolute truth" is arrogant and wrong.

A CL's opinion is highly relevant - really, it's conclusive unless overturned by the Bsworn -to what Targossas's official position is, though, since IC the CL is the voice of the city. You're purporting to be proclaiming the actual position of Targossas, which is inaccurate if it goes against what Targossas is actually doing. Micaelis hasn't changed stance towards Cyrene since I was CL.

But Targossas has been neutral towards Cyrene for as long as I've played Farrah. I never changed policy there. They aren't officially classified as "enemies." These are facts, regardless of whether you think they should change.

Kyrra

Tysandr said:

The utility of a thread like this approaches

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You can take the people out of Cyrene, but you cannot take the Cyrene out of people.

I don’t know about that. I’d like to think Kyrra’s done really well since moving to Ashtan from Cyrene.

Melodie

Kyrra said:

Tysandr said:

The utility of a thread like this approaches

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You can take the people out of Cyrene, but you cannot take the Cyrene out of people.

I don’t know about that. I’d like to think Kyrra’s done really well since moving to Ashtan from Cyrene.

Yeah, have you looked at HELP MHALDOR, lately? There are a ton of people who were previous Cyrenians for a stretch of time. Some longer than others for sure, but all the same. We laugh about it on a weekly basis.

Torinn

Space marine ideology fits Targ pretty well. Used to joke that Farrah was the Emperor of Mankind.  (Though not a zombie)

Illarion

Keorin said:

Aeryllin said:

Daeir said:

 No leader should have a tenure that spans literal IRL years, no matter how good they are.

I mean, honestly, why not?  If the people are happy and things are running smoothly - and by and large they are, else people wouldn't stay in the numbers they do - why not?  If it is not broken, why try to fix it?  You're more likely to make things worse than better.

There's a lot of fundamental issues with an unchanging government, I think, and Cyrene's more specifically, but there are two big ones in my mind.

loads of interesting stuff

As a long term player who checks in now and then, these "state of the nation" threads are always really interesting to read, and try and get a temperature reading on how things are going.  The consistency of the themes across ten years or more is really interesting to me.

Anyway, just checking in to say that @Keorin's point here is massively undervalued.  I have nothing but the highest respect for @Verrucht, who (on other chars) I've had the pleasure of RPing with but it's just wrong to hold on to a central position like that for so long.  No matter how good you are, no matter if you are still, after RL years the best person for the job, it's still wrong.  And it's bad for the game.

I think you have a moral responsibility to step down after around 50 IC years (at an absolute maximum).  Take a breather.  Then, if you really can't help yourself, run again/put yourself forward again after a decent interval.  (The advantages of incumbency are massively overlooked in terms of position maintenance - if you can win re-election you're borderline competent.  If you can win re-election after you haven't held a position for 6 RL months, that's a different thing).  As open as you think you are to new ideas, as flexible and inclusive and non-cliquish as you believe yourself to be, it is an immutable law of human nature that you will have accumulated your biases, your traditions, your pool of advice, your go-to strategies.  You'll be blind to novelty in ways you can't even recognize.

And this is before you even get into many of the great points @Keorin makes.

If you are in the amazingly fortunate position of having been an org leader for 40/50 years, do yourself a favour.  Do your org a favour - take a breather.  I'd even be in favour of the divine mandating it.  It's not healthy.  (The removal of those 100 year honours lines was a great move, for example).

Hataru

Melodie said:

Kyrra said:

Tysandr said:

The utility of a thread like this approaches

0

You can take the people out of Cyrene, but you cannot take the Cyrene out of people.

I don’t know about that. I’d like to think Kyrra’s done really well since moving to Ashtan from Cyrene.

Yeah, have you looked at HELP MHALDOR, lately? There are a ton of people who were previous Cyrenians for a stretch of time. Some longer than others for sure, but all the same. We laugh about it on a weekly basis.

Shhhhhh shhhhhhh








Mel we don't talk about that around the children.

Verrucht

This thread is amazing.

Prythe

Zackery said:

Prythe said:

In real life I often say that I love lesbians as individuals, just not in groups. In many ways I feel the same about forestals. Love many of them individually, but grouped up? Oy!

Can we just take a moment and acknowledge that this is not okay

ROFL! Dude. I appreciate the support, but:

I *am* a lesbian, and trust me, if you've ever bowled in a lesbian league (hours to decide on breaks and public hugs) or a lesbian book club (oh, let's read another socially relevant book instead of something fun) or a lesbian coffee meet up (let's not say 'lesbian too loud, somebody might overhear) you'd feel the same way.

I really do appreciate the support, but I'm allowed to laugh at my own group and how it groups!

Alyxeri

Generalising an entire group of people, is what's not okay. That goes for anything, really.

Being one doesn't give you any more right to do that.

Prythe

Alyxeri said:

Generalising an entire group of people, is what's not okay. That goes for anything, really.

Being one doesn't give you any more right to do that.

LOL.

Okay. 

(I was fighting for queer rights before most Achaeans were born, I'll take the heat for this and just continue to giggle. Heck, I'll even make it a topic at our next CR group -where we vote on what to discuss in a very orderly fashion- and get back to you with the consensus.)

Want a chocolate?  

Alyxeri

Because being condescending when you're called out, definitely means you're correct. Not that I'm entirely surprised, at this point.

[spoiler] Am I doing this right? [/spoiler]

Ahmet

Melodie said:

Man, Aluine is still allowed to sit at CC in Cyrene and talk shit after the aforementioned incident? Christ above.

I'm like three pages behind, catching up on this thread, but I wanted to go ahead and point out that she's been a hairs breadth away from becoming Blu chow on several occasions.

Melodie

Pfffff.

Krypton

Relevant from the Q&A:

Nicola says, "I quite like where organisational combat is right now. Cities don't need reasons to go after one another, the fact that they are different cities is reason enough. I'd not want to see a purely safe zone in Achaea (and hated it when we had one.) When a raid occurs I see many CTs where they'll usher folks who aren't interested in defending out of the area and once a sanction is in place there's no punishment for attempting to defend."

Nicola says, "Mathilda made a really astute differentiation on forums the other day, non-combatants are a good and fine thing and have their place. Anti-combatants are more of a problem, people who like PK are never lesser or worse than those who profess RP, most of the time those who like PK also RP as well. But there's never going to be a time when we say you can RP and be utterly free of PK consequence."

Chubbs

Melodie said:

Pfffff.

Man, I love that sound clip so much.

Dochitha

Who cares about Cities now that we want the biggest release ever!