Cities

Keorin

Personally, I don't think it's a problem that Cyrene tries to be neutral and isolationist. I think it rounds out the world to have one of the major city states playing this role, and that it's more interesting than if Cyrene was just one one more faction that hated all the others.

The problem, in my view, is that Cyrene manages to be isolated and neutral through game mechanics instead of through roleplay. Since the only way to experience any meaningful loss is to agree to it, Cyrene stays neutral by simply refusing to engage, and there's nothing anyone can do. If, for instance, Mhaldor tried to start a war of conquest against Cyrene, Cyrene would just refuse to acknowledge it as anything meaningful. Mhaldor could raid, but at worst that means a single destroyed room, since we'd leave before they managed to get anything else. They could bash guards, but Cyrene is so wealthy that replacing them is a meaningless drop in the bucket.

In the end, the only way to force another faction to take a loss is to to grief them until they give up, and that just isn't fun for anyone involved. Heck, that's exactly what happened during Mhaldor and Eleusis' last conflict, and we all saw how that ended. Does anyone really think that conflict with Cyrene could end any differently?  If we want a game where players are meaningfully able to shape the world, this is a problem, since loss and the possibility of loss are key parts of what make stories compelling. 

I have a lot of things I like about Cyrene, and I'm honestly glad that it takes a fundamentally different stance towards conflict then other cities. But I think that neutrality and isolation should be something that has to be worked towards and earned through roleplay, through shrewd diplomacy or by giving other factions reasons not to attack. Right now, Cyrene avoids conflict through refusing to engage with the world at large, as everyone knows that game mechanics make it impossible for their to ever be repercussions for doing so. In a game world that's built around interaction between players, avoiding interaction should never be the best way of achieving goals. Cyrene exemplifies just how effective that approach is, and I think the city and the game are worse for it.

Krypton

Keorin said:

Right now, Cyrene avoids conflict through refusing to engage with the world at large, as everyone knows that game mechanics make it impossible for their to ever be repercussions for doing so.

Notably, if anyone says to "just ignore" the enemy, it should be pointed out, on an IC level, they are acting in very violation of the spirit of Cyrene:

Introduction to Cyrene and Our Ethos says:

Our history includes a proud and long tradition of defending our home
fiercely and successfully. We also have resolutely declared war when it
was determined that our way of life was threatened and fought with the

honour and distinction that comes only from the strength of unswayable

conviction and the protection of our very principles of existence. Rest

assured, we will do again if a similar threat faces us or the realms as

a whole.

DEFENCE: Our commitment to protect Cyrene, Her citizens and all She

stands for knows no bounds. The Ministry of Security (MoS), in

partnership with the Ministry of War (MoW) is tasked with the awesome

responsibility of ensuring that the Cyrenian Army remains ever vigilant

and prepared to defend the city and all She stands for. We take

considerable pride in our fierce commitment to our city's safety and

well-being, as well as in our success at achieving that goal.

Mighty is our weapon - steadfast our resolve.

Keorin

For sure, but if you don't see the city as meaningfully threatened mechanically - say, for instance, because you know that Mhaldor can't do anything more then damage a few rooms - then it's hard to see the city as being particularly threatened ICly. Heck, Cyrene's geographically closest neighbor is Mhaldor, a city with some of the most cause to start a more serious attack, but I don't think most people in Cyrene see this as much of a risk.

It's even worse during actual raids, since mechanically, the best way to defend the city is always to leave to mitigate losses, at least after the first tank. Not that this is just something you see happening in Cyrene, I've seen Targossas ordered to pull out when there was some chance Mhaldor might tank their docks, and we all know how that last war went. 

In general, no one disagrees that Cyrene should be a well defended city, from what I've seen. There's just a lot of disagreement on what that means, particularly when the mechanically safest option seems to be to boot out all combatants that might make trouble with other cities, call guards in every engagement to make small raids impossible, and brush off the impact of any successful ones.

Kogan

Keorin said:

In general, no one disagrees that Cyrene should be a well defended city, from what I've seen. There's just a lot of disagreement on what that means, particularly when the mechanically safest option seems to be to boot out all combatants that might make trouble with other cities, call guards in every engagement to make small raids impossible, and brush off the impact of any successful ones.

I've never felt like I was being pushed out by the city. It was a choice I made to be here. I don't claim to be top tier or the best combatant in Cyrene. Generally though as a Cyrenian you will have to look elsewhere for your pking. Annwyn when its not completely empty is great. @Dochitha and I check Annwyn often and have a great time. Even waiting for groups who were killed/left to form back up and come at us again regardless of the numbers they may be bringing. Calling guards is something every city does. Under what circumstances changes from player to player. If I'm not in the mood for combat I'm more likely to call guards (Sorry I guess). If you're a serpent I'm probably calling guards because I don't feel like chasing your evade until the next guard stack/your duanathar. We had a ton of fun in the CTF on clouds among other things. At least I thought we did. Diving other groups regardless of expected outcome. This is fun and all, but not everyone in the city is looking for it as consistently as some of us may be. However I'm looking at implementing some nifty changes to the Army and hope they'll address some of the issues and give people here something to work towards. If you're interested in hearing them you can drop me a message and I'll send them your way. Criticism expected and welcomed.

Xaden

Start a war with Targossas to take Devotion back!!! PLEASE

Armali

@Xaden, If you want to beat on some non-coms, why do you even need an excuse? Raid Cyrene, kill the guards, uproot the totems, and plant shrines everywhere.

Xaden

Armali said:

@Xaden, If you want to beat on some non-coms, why do you even need an excuse? Raid Cyrene, kill the guards, uproot the totems, and plant shrines everywhere.

I'm not allowed

Keorin

To be clear, I don't mean to say that Cyrene has driven out all fighters (something that's obviously not the case), but that the city has often sought to place the blame on conflict that occurs on fighters, or has limited opportunities to participate in combat out of concern that it could cause trouble with other cities.

Obviously this hasn't universally been true, but I think it's fair to say that overall, Cyrene attempts to use mechanics to mitigate its losses in more instances then other cities, and that its roleplay stance has tended to heavily follow suit.

Armali

Xaden said:

Armali said:

@Xaden, If you want to beat on some non-coms, why do you even need an excuse? Raid Cyrene, kill the guards, uproot the totems, and plant shrines everywhere.

I'm not allowed

It's easier to seek forgiveness than permission. Do it anyways. What are they going to do, kick you out? At worse, you get a slap on the wrist, at best, the people sympathetic to Cyrene get marginalized and you get your grief-war. Win win?

Xaden

Guess which one @Armali is right now

Aegoth

do it xaden, or i will holocaust the guinness brewery

Xaden

If I ever doubted just how evil you are, Aegoth, then I take it all back

Sobriquet

Xaden said:

Armali said:

@Xaden, If you want to beat on some non-coms, why do you even need an excuse? Raid Cyrene, kill the guards, uproot the totems, and plant shrines everywhere.

I'm not allowed

Didn't stop you picking in Pandora /forumrp

Xaden

Sobriquet said:

Xaden said:

Armali said:

@Xaden, If you want to beat on some non-coms, why do you even need an excuse? Raid Cyrene, kill the guards, uproot the totems, and plant shrines everywhere.

I'm not allowed

Didn't stop you picking in Pandora /forumrp

Filthy Chaos baby

Shayde

Xaden said:

Start a war with Targossas to take Devotion back!!! PLEASE

Even more Cyrenian would be take back the gold Cyrene spent on class changing all of the Devotionists.

Targossas:


Cyrene:

Salisa

Would rather cut ties with alchemy and fight Eleusis for forestal classes. Who wants devotion when you can have groves and throwing axes?

Alyxeri

Salisa said:

Would rather cut ties with alchemy and fight Eleusis for forestal classes. Who wants devotion when you can have groves and throwing axes?

Generally when doing such trades, Cyrene would have to give us something in return... And Eleusis already has enough cake, snugglers and people who're horrible at politics, so Cyrene can't really provide anything.

Salisa

I said fight. We can come take over Eleusis using the hoard, turn your snugglers against you, every room with be a new CC. Submit or suffer.

Alyxeri

You say that as if you could impose a higher degree of suffering than most of the citizens already do themselves.

Mathilda

I would war for Druid!

Atalkez

I would too.

Destroy your filthy village, steal your spears and axes to use them to kill you more.

I’m game.

Alyxeri

        

Farrah

The flaws of Alchemy were revealed when Mayology inexplicably started causing pain to its subject and not working as often! Damn cheap drugs.

Rangor

Daeir said:

The happiest possible outcome after Eleusis' catastrophic decline would be the unshackling of forestal classes from it.

I mean, why let the Nature classes be specific to the citystate that rejected all of the Nature Divine? I also really want to see a pissed off Khunrath come back and be absolutely livid with the cities for choosing forestals anyway after all of the guff about alchemy.

I renounce you!

Lisbethae

Reyson said:

Re: Cyrene and @Caynix: Cyrene only offers interaction if you don't step on anyone's toes, don't raid, don't try to start any trouble. I can count on one hand the number of Cyrenians I've had constructive, decent IC interactions with, and still have three leftover fingers. That kind of wilful isolationism is pretty bad for the game- not so much the 'we don't want to pvp' thing as the 'we refuse to engage at all unless you're doing exactly what we feel is the right way to play this game' thing. 

Your character is 32 now. You've been enemied to Cyrene since you were 22. That's a total of 4 in game years, or about 2 months where Cyrene had a chance to get to know you. I don't know how people expect to have GREAT RP when you are enemied to Cyrene, especially when you know Cyrenians don't interact with enemies.

Get unenemied and you'll have more interaction.

Prythe

I don't think "good roleplay" requires extended emotes or conflict. If you disagree with my basic premises, you will not like anything else I have to say either.

When I first started playing Achaea I became a Druid because it seemed the set of skills where I was most able to help others. I found a distinct culture with Druids, the "not living in cities" the "Nature above Guild" the "Nature is neutral and will be defended to the death, but need not be an aggressor."

I never swayed from that mindset my entire time as an official forestal, and even now, those beliefs form a good deal of Prythe's core. I have to add, that those consistently stayed my beliefs no matter how many times the "official" stances changed as to the nature of Nature, and hostilities towards Cities. 

Example: 

When I was young I thought: I hate Hashan. They built a road.

Official Stance: We have forgiven them.

Later: I hate Hashan. They built a road.

Official Stance: We hate them, they built a road.

Another time: I hate Hashan. They built a road.

Official Stance: We have forgiven them again.

And later again: I hate Hashan. They built a road.

Official Stance: Yes, and we are going to tear them to the ground.

That last, of course, conflicted with my "We defend Nature, but need not be aggressive on Her behalf, only in the face of a current and active threat."

That's just one example, but after 400 years of IC life, I have many, and took pride in the fact that I remained consistent throughout - regardless of official stances, and pressures brought to bear when I was not in line with the official stance(s). 

THAT to me is Roleplay.

So how then was I ever able to move to Cyrene? Me who was "Born a Druid, and will die a Druid."

It wasn't easy.

It took a lot of thought, and a lot of development to get to a place where I felt I had not betrayed my ideals or oaths.

Nature is still amazingly important to me, but I am able to defend Her, and care for Her, without having to reside in the Village or hang around with forestals. 

I am very clear that my soul and heart remains Druid when the topic arises. (But man, do I love runes!)

In real life I often say that I love lesbians as individuals, just not in groups. In many ways I feel the same about forestals. Love many of them individually, but grouped up? Oy!

I spend my time in the City of Cyrene in natural environments. My house which I recently built (My original House was in Ashtan as it predated a subdivision in Eleusis - and most forestals had houses in one city or another) is a natural environment, reminiscent of my Grove, and the Groves of a dear friend, and my spouse.

I still harvest. I still offer refills and herbs. I still Hunt! (I still offer goods and services, including Hunting trips to those in need for no cost at all - because "Help, Harvest, Hunt!" remains my inner motto.)

I still patrol, even though I fail to report more often than not, those things remain important to me as part of my personal, consistent RP.

As for the Cyrene bashing I am seeing here....

There is nothing that is NOT role playing about people who prefer peace, who prefer to learn arts or music, who want to hone combat skills for homeland defense, and not offense.

I do not understand why anybody does not undertsand that is as valid as any other pursuit and *is* role play.

Cyrene is a great place, with great people.

The interactions are character driven. THAT is role play, even if many have no interest in conflict or fighting.

Oh, and when somebody does raid Cyrene? Or comes in after somebody? 

The response is amazing. Nobody hides on ships. Nobody QQ. Everybody runs to help from the best combatants to the newest citizens.

That is role playing. That is civic duty. That is social responsiblity.

These were my two cents.

Keorin

Lisbethae said:

I don't know how people expect to have GREAT RP when you are enemied to Cyrene, especially when you know Cyrenians don't interact with enemies.

Get unenemied and you'll have more interaction.

This is a pretty crummy view to hold in a game that revolves around interaction between players.

Prythe

Keorin said:

Lisbethae said:

I don't know how people expect to have GREAT RP when you are enemied to Cyrene, especially when you know Cyrenians don't interact with enemies.

Get unenemied and you'll have more interaction.

This is a pretty crummy view to hold in a game that revolves around interaction between players.

It's a valid view. How many who live in Targ socialize with those who live in Mhaldor. 

I'll wait.

Still waiting.

If somebody wants to interact in and around Cyrene they need to not be an enemy of Cyrene. 

Which is exactly how it is for every other City.

Hataru

Prythe said:

Keorin said:

Lisbethae said:

I don't know how people expect to have GREAT RP when you are enemied to Cyrene, especially when you know Cyrenians don't interact with enemies.

Get unenemied and you'll have more interaction.

This is a pretty crummy view to hold in a game that revolves around interaction between players.

It's a valid view. How many who live in Targ socialize with those who live in Mhaldor. 

I'll wait.

Still waiting.

If somebody wants to interact in and around Cyrene they need to not be an enemy of Cyrene. 

Which is exactly how it is for every other City.

Your mistake here is the word "socialize". I have at least a few conversations a week with people in enemy factions. Even positive ones. The @Aralaya
interaction was sort of a flub cause they accidentally hit one of Hat's big no-no buttons in acting as if the dead divine should be titled different than the living, which for Hat (having served two formally and a third informally) that are dead was like a no-holds-bar who-is-this-rude-child moment.

But I interact with Cyrenians too, as an enemy. And positively. At least with Kogan and Dochi. Though when I say positively I mean that they actually bother to interact with me, not that said interactions are always positive.

It IS AN ABSOLUTELY crummy RP view to be like "nah I'll just ignore your prescence entirely" just because someone is an enemy. That's not RP. That's 100% OOC. Because if you were sat in a room with someone you hated IRL, you'd still interact with them - it may not be positive, it might even just be glares, but you'd stillinteract with them.

RP isn't about socializing and that, ultimately, is why both Prythe and Lisbethae have made false staements here. RP isn't about being positive and if you can't RP with your enemies - even just because they're enemies, then you're not actually RPing in a realistic fashion and all you're doing is blaming shitty behaviour on OOC mechanics like enemy status.

Aralaya

@Hataru don't judge me I was hired

Also agreeing with Hataru, even if ic my character doesn't like you she'll still interact.

Typically it's just calling you a heretic but it's interaction.