Cities

Caelan

Cities suck.  Villages is where it's at.

Skye

Melodie said:

Kyrra said:

Tysandr said:

The utility of a thread like this approaches

0

You can take the people out of Cyrene, but you cannot take the Cyrene out of people.

I don’t know about that. I’d like to think Kyrra’s done really well since moving to Ashtan from Cyrene.

Yeah, have you looked at HELP MHALDOR, lately? There are a ton of people who were previous Cyrenians for a stretch of time. Some longer than others for sure, but all the same. We laugh about it on a weekly basis.

And here we've nearly uncovered the biggest conspiracy of all: Cyrene is actually the Mhaldorian kindergarten and breeds strong and healthy Slaves for Evil with a Good Education.

There's your reason for raiding, @Targossas

Prythe

Alyxeri said:

Because being condescending when you're called out, definitely means you're correct. Not that I'm entirely surprised, at this point.

[spoiler] Am I doing this right? [/spoiler]

Just factual, darlin'

[spoiler] Now this was condescending. HTH![/spoiler]

Alyxeri

They were both condescending; you're not really doing yourself any favours.

Antidas

Alyxeri said:

They were both condescending; you're not really doing yourself any favours.

Neither of you, you guys (both of you) are both being stupidly passive aggressive. How about you take it to personal messages if you want to keep arguing about this, because I promise you, no one else here really cares.

Prythe

eta: Deleted because giving wrong impression.

Illarion

Verrucht said:

This thread is amazing.

I logged in for a bit.  Honest question.  Do you think it is healthy for the game/an org:

• to have org leaders be in situ for > 100 IC years
• for a city council of five to be comprised of two married couples and one of the longest serving city leaders in the game?

I'm genuinely interested in your views.  Full disclosure, I've never had a character in Cyrene.  Never really been close to anyone OOC or IC with a prominent Cyrenian character, don't know any of the people criticizing or defending the current situation.  Just interested.

Kiet

It's obviously unhealthy if you want a democracy. I see no evidence that Cyrene (or its leaders) want an actual democracy. In fact, given the state of Achaean democracies, I'd be surprised if anyone actually believes democracies are good for the cities.

Kiet

What exactly needs to be 'shaken up' about Cyrene, though? We both know that Cyrene changing is the least likely thing possible in the game. You could place literally anyone as Imperiate and it'll make absolutely no difference to Cyrene's direction.

Cyrene only needs leaders to keep them running smoothly, and for that it hardly matters how long someone's been there.

Rangor

Cyrene seems to be doing just fine with the status quo. Those who want another play style find other cities. 

Mathilda

That might not be good for the game as a whole, though. As has been touched upon before in this thread, Cyrene has a tendency to shut out conflict (even though it isn't an "official policy"). This forms a bubble around Cyrene and its players, and increasingly it is as if Cyrene is a separate game from Achaea that just happens to share the same world.

Telendrieth

Slowly Mathilda is encroaching on the truth. Cyrene is really converting Achaea into Stardew Valley one player at a time. You guys just never knew you were playing the role of Joja mart. 

On a serious note though, sometimes there are legitimate roleplay reasons for orgs to nor participate. I think I've made it clear my stance on ooc shutdown and refusing interaction is a bad thing, so I'm not really talking about that. But a good example of this scenario would be the whole undead civil war event. With the way it was presented to the players, why the hell would many of the factions willingly support a generally nefarious undead faction demanding support. As a player I definitely see "Ooh, event! Lets roll!" but as a character I was far more tempted to go "Yo.. these undead are pretty shitty. This sounds like the perfect time for team blue to put aside some differences and wipe out some undead vermin."

To push the only real good RP reasoning at the time, Telen tried to spin it as attempting to influence the lesser of evils into power so as to put the living in a better position, but that specific faction was claimed almost instantly. Since the general nature of the event, that kinda left us borked until the admin made some changes. 

Micaelis

Mathilda said:

That might not be good for the game as a whole, though. As has been touched upon before in this thread, Cyrene has a tendency to shut out conflict (even though it isn't an "official policy"). This forms a bubble around Cyrene and its players, and increasingly it is as if Cyrene is a separate game from Achaea that just happens to share the same world.

I think it's easy to come to this conclusion from an outsider's perspective. I for one can never imagine being Cyrenian, but then again the plurality of characters are, in fact, Cyrenian. Have to be meeting some sort of niche, even if people like us find it incredibly boring and unattractive. 

I'm not sure what it's like to be Cyrenian, to be honest, but I do wish there was more of an impact on the global stage from them simply due to their size alone. Not that this is an easy prospect anyway, given that any attempt to do would just be taken out of context as a call to war from every given theocracy. 

A fine line you have to walk there but as long as those Cyrenians non-combatants keep buying an obscene amount of artefacts for little to no reason, and thus keep the lights of Achaea on, they're a-ok in my book! 

Melodie

Cyrene did not always shy away from all conflict. If you look through events, the Theodelinda incident is a great example, and while that was an event by the admin, a lot of that built up through player roleplay (the creation of the Lumeni, the building of the chapel and how fucking hard we had to fight to get it be okayed by a leery Senate), all of which was years and years of players creating and continuing the various traditions. Cyrene really did band together to deal with all of that and were incredibly supportive to a group that had always had a tenuous connection for years to the city.

Maybe it's just nostalgia glasses, but I feel like a lot of that spirit disappeared in my later years in Cyrene, which was a huge chunk (with other obvious events, plus just a general maturity from when I started out as my 16 year old self) of what had my interest in Cyrene as a player wane. It's one of those things I never feel like I can comment on as right or wrong, though, because cities do change, and maybe that's just what they want to be, now.

I think it's a real shame, but I don't feel like I have a voice in that area any longer.

Keorin

I've spoken to plenty of Cyrenians unhappy with the status quo in large or small ways, some who would really like a more fundamental shift in how things are done, and others who would just rather that there were senators from more then one house. Cyrene isn't a monolith to any extent, now or ever. 

The thing is, even if these views are a minority now, that's partly true because of how many people have left. The longer you hold power in a game like this, the more that people who disagree with your leadership style will leave. So saying that it's what most people want may be true, but that's self-reinforcing. I think even an average leader could get in power and have that be true after long enough.  Not to mention, the government structure was changed to allow consolidation of power like this. Before Verrucht took charge, there were seven senate seats, four of which were filled by the houses, which made it more likely you'd have representation of less common views. Combined with the natural advantages of incumbency, this doesn't just create stability - it makes change nearly impossible.

The problem here isn't just unchanging leadership, but unchanging leadership that supports their own play style to the exclusion of others, which makes trying to create any sort of change a long, not very fun trudge, regardless of how many people want to see it. It was just a few months ago that we elected a leader who was part of a different house and who wanted to make new things happen, and it took all of two weeks for them to decide that the irl years long slog that it would take to make anything happen just wasn't worth it. All in all, I think neutrality and pacifism are fair enough, but I don't think it's good for any city in the game to be a "retirement home" where nothing happens, let alone one that fills an important niche rp-wise, and ends up with so many new players.

Illarion

I guess I'm diverging a bit from you @Keorin now.  I don't think Cyrene will change, or even should change.  It's essential nature is hard-wired into it.  It was founded as what it is.  And I think there's exactly one city-sized slot for an Achaean city with that kind of ethos.  It doesn't mean that Cyrene does nothing, but it does mean it will be largely reactive.  But when being reactive Cyrene always gave the impression of being awesome at it.  All the stuff with the ogres, the removal of devotion - you need a story set-up that works with, not against, Cyrene's essential nature.  (Here we stand, don't fuck with us).  And Cyrene plays that role excellently.

That's why it always felt (as an outsider) that Cyrene worked while, for the longest time, Hashan (as an example) didn't.  Hashan pre-@Twilight's return at least tried to emulate that ethos, but it was always working against its essential nature.  Hashan was founded as a Darky, Nighty, sneak-fest of assassins, thieves, rogues, politicians, spies.  It should have been messing with the world in a hundred different ways.  If you have two cities playing neutral and reactive, that's probably one too many.

Which is not to say that cities shouldn't change their leaders, and so I disagree with @Kiet.  Mhaldor's essential nature doesn't change.  Nor Eleusis, nor any other number of orgs.  That doesn't mean they should keep the same mortal leadership forever.  You can have stagnation without change of ethos.  You can cock-block a new generation.  You can keep things samey.  You can get lazy, and play favourites and patronage.  You can be... a bit selfish by holding on to the funnest roles for the longest time.  These are all bad things whether or not Cyrene changes in some fundamental way.  I don't think Cyrene does want to change.  I don't think Cyrene should change.  But I don't think people should sit for triple digit years in leadership roles either.

Rangor

In Eleusis you already get a credit for each head you collect during raids, defences, whatever. It doesn't spur that many people into action, or make them more willing to risk the destruction of their city.

Might be better if you can jump straight to sanctioned raid, but then you get the problem of sanctioning against empty cities.

Perhaps constables need to be less effective when moved, yet still be an option. Now you tend to have to bring overwhelming numbers just to counter the threat of constables.

Make guards weaker after being moved.. So you risk more by using them than by letting the enemy team destroy a corner room in a part of the city no one visits.

Reyson

Cyrene feels like it works even if it doesn't because, well, it's not often pitted against any obstacle (except internal melodrama, I guess?).

Easy for things to look fine if you never have to overcome anything. Two weeks of intense pvp and I'm very confident it'll splinter worse and produce more bitching than we saw out of Eleusis in its last significant conflict.

 ETA: I realise sensitive types will take that as an attack; it's really not. I'm very aware Cyrene does not want to "good" at that kind of thing, and that's fine. Just illustrating that I think people think factions are doing better than they are simply because they're never stressed, so you can't see the cracks. 

Farrah

Wrong thread, @Rangor

Krypton

You're being generous.

Reyson said:

Two weeks hours of intense pvp and I'm very confident it'll splinter worse and produce more bitching than we saw out of Eleusis in its last significant conflict.

During the Q&A, someone literally asked the Producers if they would please stop people from attacking Cyrene "unless they had a good reason".

Salisa

Krypton said:

You're being generous.

Reyson said:

Two weeks hours of intense pvp and I'm very confident it'll splinter worse and produce more bitching than we saw out of Eleusis in its last significant conflict.

During the Q&A, someone literally asked the Producers if they would please stop people from attacking Cyrene "unless they had a good reason".

Ugh why..we don't even get raided that much.

No one is forced to defend, those that want to defend(and there are plenty) will and those that don't, won't. Or at least they shouldn't force themselves if they hate it that much.

Also words like won't are why people hate English as a language, that word makes -no- sense.

Aegoth

Krypton said:

You're being generous.

Reyson said:

Two weeks hours of intense pvp and I'm very confident it'll splinter worse and produce more bitching than we saw out of Eleusis in its last significant conflict.

During the Q&A, someone literally asked the Producers if they would please stop people from attacking Cyrene "unless they had a good reason".

It took immense amounts of willpower to keep myself from trolling that guy. Like... you guys really need to appreciate that restraint. It was one of the more difficult tasks i've ever done.

Mathilda

This is why having Cyrene insulate itself is not good at all. It sets a wrong expectation for the players of Cyrene, that PK is something that you can opt out of and that actions might not have consequences. It also gives the impression that PK is somehow inherently bad, despite it being a major facet of the game.

Krypton

Aegoth said:

Krypton said:

You're being generous.

Reyson said:

Two weeks hours of intense pvp and I'm very confident it'll splinter worse and produce more bitching than we saw out of Eleusis in its last significant conflict.

During the Q&A, someone literally asked the Producers if they would please stop people from attacking Cyrene "unless they had a good reason".

It took immense amounts of willpower to keep myself from trolling that guy. Like... you guys really need to appreciate that restraint. It was one of the more difficult tasks i've ever done.

:kissing_blush: proud of u :kissing_wink:

Xaden

Aegoth said:

Krypton said:

You're being generous.

Reyson said:

Two weeks hours of intense pvp and I'm very confident it'll splinter worse and produce more bitching than we saw out of Eleusis in its last significant conflict.

During the Q&A, someone literally asked the Producers if they would please stop people from attacking Cyrene "unless they had a good reason".

It took immense amounts of willpower to keep myself from trolling that guy. Like... you guys really need to appreciate that restraint. It was one of the more difficult tasks i've ever done.

Name and shame!

Salisa

Mathilda said:

This is why having Cyrene insulate itself is not good at all. It sets a wrong expectation for the players of Cyrene, that PK is something that you can opt out of and that actions might not have consequences. It also gives the impression that PK is somehow inherently bad, despite it being a major facet of the game.

I mean, if we picked a handful of people from each city to form opinions about a populace we could all have a field day. Despite this, "having Cyrene insulate itself" is a bad choice of words, no one is letting it, it just does. And in my experience Cyrene has been this way for a looong (always?) time, so everyone can chill on how Cyrene is the death of achaea. I'm sure someone will comment on this, but hearing about other cities in this thread would be cool, because I am genuinely interested.

Mathilda

Salisa said:

I mean, if we picked a handful of people from each city to form opinions about a populace we could all have a field day. Despite this, "having Cyrene insulate itself" is a bad choice of words, no one is letting it, it just does. And in my experience Cyrene has been this way for a looong (always?) time, so everyone can chill on how Cyrene is the death of achaea. I'm sure someone will comment on this, but hearing about other cities in this thread would be cool, because I am genuinely interested.

That's my point -- there are policies within Cyrene that encourage insulation, and it's these that need to be changed. Furthermore, I am of the opinion that cities should be accountable for the actions of their members; it's too often allowed for the excuse of "But we can't police XYZ!". You can. Slap them with a disfavour or an execution. We are responsible for making sure everyone follows rules that make Achaea a nice game to play for a majority of people.

Salisa

Mathilda said:

Salisa said:

I mean, if we picked a handful of people from each city to form opinions about a populace we could all have a field day. Despite this, "having Cyrene insulate itself" is a bad choice of words, no one is letting it, it just does. And in my experience Cyrene has been this way for a looong (always?) time, so everyone can chill on how Cyrene is the death of achaea. I'm sure someone will comment on this, but hearing about other cities in this thread would be cool, because I am genuinely interested.

That's my point -- there are policies within Cyrene that encourage insulation, and it's these that need to be changed. Furthermore, I am of the opinion that cities should be accountable for the actions of their members; it's too often allowed for the excuse of "But we can't police XYZ!". You can. Slap them with a disfavour or an execution. We are responsible for making sure everyone follows rules that make Achaea a nice game to play for a majority of people.

Idk what you are talking about specifically, but people are held accountable, we have had people get CDFed for their actions, it isn't just a free for all in Cyrene. 

Keorin

Illarion said:

I don't think Cyrene will change, or even should change.  It's essential nature is hard-wired into it.  It was founded as what it is.

In case my post wasn't clear, I largely agree with this. When I say fundamental changes, I mean things like changing the government to be a functional democracy, or trying to actually leverage its unique position and roleplay to engage with the game world, or trying to support play styles other then the leaders' own. 

I think what Cyrene offers the world is very important, but I don't think it's healthy to bifurcate the world into a PvP server and an PvE server with all the same mechanics and world events, just without the risk of any sort of consequence and repercussions.

Reyson

I don't think anyone's seriously arguing Cyrene's a bad concept. I think those of us who've been critical are mostly critical of certain OOC attitudes Cyrene seems to not only tolerate and embrace, but rather foster actively in its players- namely this idea of complete non-engagement being the same thing as IC neutrality/isolationism.