Quick Combat Questions

Saonji

[DWB infernal has entered the chat.]

Sheverad

I've seen a lot of threads around the forums on single combat and the different types of combat, what path each class can try to go for etc., but can someone point me to some similar threads regarding group combat? It's quite hard to tell for someone inexperienced what each class can contribute to a team fight, really, given how some abilities you find in skills may or may not really be applicable in real case scenarios and are just there for flavor etc. Not asking for team tactics and all that, that's sth you can find out with your team and training inside the game and something teams may not want to disclose outside of the game. Just pointers really to what role a class can be expected to take, e.g., getting in front to take the hits and tank, or prepare some long channeling nuke, or distract enemies etc.

Shecks

@Sheverad

This has been done before on other threads, of course - usually once every year or two (as sometimes metals change). I found this on a quick google search but you can probabt find more recent updates or other perspectives.

https://forums.achaea.com/discussion/6497/class-tier-list-h2-2018

My biggest tip however is to just learn this stuff in game. You'll get better info, and you'll also ideally meet people in the process. If you want to know more about Magi then.... Ask a magi.

If you really wanna pursue IG knowledge outside the game, then get acquainted with the Search tool as well google site:forums.achaea.com searches as there's a great deal of info here (albeit usually biased, unfiltered, and only from a very small slice of the playerbase).

Achaea clearly came from D&D inspirations but doesn't really adhere to typical RPG roles in team combat. Knights really aren't much tankier than anybody else, etc.

You could break classes down by single target, aoe, and ranged capability, or defensive/offensive utility - but at that point you may as well open then wiki and read their skills.

Sheverad

I've read that one before but it seems more of a 1v1 class breakdown - I was looking for something more explanatory of team fights, but I'll go on searching a bit more, thanks.

Gallida

Group fights depend entirely on the group composition.

Typically, a good group class has a few of the following:

Room hinder to keep enemies from getting out.

Beckon to pull enemies into the room.

Burst damage / fast afflicting to take out priority targets.

Long-lasting hinder like aeon/impale/transfix/breaking limbs and prone to help set up for burst damage and prevent escapes.

AOE attacks, if you're going to be dealing with large numbers.

Obviously, other things come into play, but every class has something to offer a group. Some classes bring more to these than others, and a few don't bring many at all.

If you want a faction-agnostic group class, you cannot go wrong with Depthswalker or Water Lord.

Shecks

Definitely true, DW is a powerhouse, even without a single artie. Highly recommend.

Namino

Monk, tekura specifically, is a classic raiding class due to LoS/area-wide skirmishing abilities (kaido, telepathy), on demand lock affs (impatience), utility skills (sensory abilities for reporting to your group), tools to split up a raid group (radiance can force people to leave the zone, mind throw) and extremely disruptive abilities post-engage, including sneaky deliverance strategies against unprepared groups, and big big damage numbers if spec'd for strength via backbreakers or spinkicks/crescents (assuming someone in your group is proning and assisting with damage).

Probably the most raid utility in a single class.

However, unlike DW, because it can do so many things, it scales heavily with basically every artefact under the sun and can be prohibitively expensive to set up if you want to be good at all of its aspects. But if you want a useful class, that's my vote. You'll be able to act aggressively regardless of the 'phase' the raid is in.

Saonji

Monk is definitely my favourite group class. Though, unlike @Namino I wouldn't give particular favouring to any one spec.

Tekura probably has higher burst damage via BRS BBTs, and the ability to freely change stances to do stuff (namely DRS for telepathy).

Shikudo has ridiculous synergy with a lot of classes though, on top of having the same offensive/utility tools that Tekura does. Some of it's mildly prohibited by stance limitations, but it's still an amazing class in its own right.

Agree that there's probably not a class in the game that scales harder than Monk, though, especially if you're wanting to get full value out of its kit.

Caladbolg

What is this and does eye sigil bring him out?

Caladbolg shines with a terrible brilliance for a single instant, then vanishes in a shower of ash.

Firelord Raido but isn't stopped by silence.

So Monolith/Hinder

I have no idea how to quote on forums now.

Caladbolg

Parry bypass for Dwc is it just break arms/leg and prone like rapier? or is there something im missing since everything else has a parry bypass now.

Saonji

Nausea is parry bypass for knights.

Novaki

This reflected my hit back to me, I see that, how do I get it to drop... is it something that can be dropped or can I get some more details on how this works?

Astarod sketches out a symbol in the air with his finger in the shape of two parallel line segments

connected by diagonals.

Astarod erects a reflective barrier about himself.

Taryius

That's alchemy tin. It reduces and reflects a portion of the damage received on the next two attacks back at the attacker.

It fades after two attacks or activations.

Novaki

why did I sip health here instead of mana? (added curing config to html paste) @ 56:22:310 was the sip health

https://ada-young.com/pastebin/-gfQYgKi

Cooper

That looks like a bug. I'd bug it in game with a link to that log so they can look into it.

Novaki

Okay, how do I properly defend against this:

https://ada-young.com/pastebin/ICQjWG-1

Amranu

tumble through icewall

Novaki

So fly on the armbreak, tumble on the legbreak? Hrm.

Swear I did that and just got damaged out. Will experiment more!

Caelan

I just looked real quick but... Looks like you could have used tree tattoo when your left leg got the mending too. I suppose it might have cured the arm, but mending/tree/stand.

Cooper

Tumbling vs a Sentinel will work once, just make sure to check for traps.

The best way to fight Sentinel's is to know all their kill paths and how to stop them so that you can recognize which one is coming and pre-apply restoration at the appropriate times and play defensive with the right priority swaps (usually impatience priority to catch up as Sentinel as they are mental affliction heavy).

Look over the log and figure out the spot where the fight transitioned from you being safe to you almost certainly being dead. What happened right before that? Could you do anything to prevent that time from happening? Could you do something to give you an extra 2-3 attacks? Just some things to think about without just handing ya an answer.

Also just...don't fight Lyrin if you want to win fights but don't have your 1v1 feet under you yet. He's really good. You can definitely learn a lot from reading over logs vs him if you're okay with losing.

(Also sorry I didn't fight you the other day when you had Rageblade...I've been gone a long time and am not really capable of fighting 1v1 anymore)

Archaeon

Yes preapply VS Sentinel is a good idea. Everyone should do that

Novaki

Yeah, I follow that. I've beaten Lyrin a time or two, not with him as sentinel, though. I've never fought prep sentinel only lolpetrify route.

That's kinda what I'm asking right, at what point did I miss what I needed?

I get the arm is to get ahead on salve balance, but once I was caught up on that I still died to double legbreak. I don't understand how I died to only double legs and what can be done to prevent it, if that's just tumble over icewall for the 1s then there we go.

The major problem here is I don't understand sentinel, so trying to get an idea. Easy way to avoid unconcious truss? etc.

@Cooper No worries about rageblade encounter heh, was pretty funny actually, you ran off and I expected you to come back, so I was spamming "farsee" and while I was standing there being a dork mizik backstabbed me and killed me.

Taryius

It's mainly a damage based route, so hard to say any advice will completely let you live as it depends on how squishy you are and what not but yeah tumbling is always a good idea there.

The problem that I saw in the log really was that you flying gave him the disrupt/prone on trumpet (it only disrupts on flying/tree targets) which gave let him break legs with you already pone. The tradeoff of fast breaking with axes is no prone, so Sentinels need to either use trip on one leg which has a much longer balance, or trumpet after breaking a leg, both of those things buy you time.

Edit: Also the damage should usually be slightly less because no class transcendent bees :P

Glark

Thinking about getting a year once I hit Logosian, which'll probably be this weekend at the latest. That'll put me at 1600+something credits. I play a psion and plan on getting more into combat past logosian, what would be the best/most impactful starting artifacts once I get there? Maybe the con bracer and belt and the regen/sip rings? Or shield of absorption?

Saonji

Shield of Absorption is the best first artifact for every single class that can use it.

Crit pendant is 2nd best if you plan to hunt with any sort of consistency.

Bracelets (reserves) after that. They give roughly the same amount of hp as con belt (level 2 bracelets are insane value, even moreso) does, while being 2/3 the price and also giving similar amounts of mana.

Health sip ring -> con belt after that, most likely.

Sheverad

How do you deal with survivability in combat as a Pariah (no armor, no shield class) against classes that push you with damage (e.g, Shikudo Monks, Runies), or in skirmishes/raids for that matter?

1. You max out INT at 19 (spec+trait+artie) and shield logograph is enough to keep you alive?
2. You spec CON all the way instead because shield logograph has bad scaling and/or you don't kill with damage?
3. You go Horkval (INT-specced I assume) for the innate resists and enjoy life?
4. Your offense is good enough to slow the damage intake down enough on its own?

Shecks

@Sheverad basically, your offense is your defense. You have some options on your affliction choices, and in situations where damage is a real issue you can lean towards the afflictions that hinder your opponent.

This won't do very much for you outside of 1v1 fights of course, and there are a number of classes that you can't really slow down very much with the available afflictions in your kit - nor does this really help at all in PvE - which in my humble opinion is why a lot of people lost interest in Pariah - myself included. Its offense is really not all that great either, for a class that relies entirely on its offense (compare to Apostate, DW, or Occultist which are far scarier offensively yet have dramatically better defense, mobility, and utility).

Your mindset should be focused around the fact that a good deal of your affs are incredibly strong, so if you can stack up a few of them, your opponent is going to quickly reach the point where they need to either kill you or turtle. At that point you just have to get to your kill condition before you run out of HP.

Of course, there are an absolutely insane number of artefacts that will increase tankiness, which would include all the standard ones as well as things like artefact armor & paragons, lyre, olive branch, wand of reflections, cauldron - and multiclassing can also give you access to runes and some other perks, situationally.

It is a lot like Shaman in this way, except that Shaman's offense is better, and it has better utility - but even so it's unpopular (IMO, having also played for a long time on Shaman) for pretty much the same reasons.

Proficy

This may be a concern at the entry level, but once defensively maxed out, pariah is very scarey and potent.

Coming from someone offensively maxed and utilize damage routes more than I should, someone like Amranu in pariah can just sit and tank my damage 1 on 1.

In groups, not much to say.... even the tankiest classes explode in certain conflicts, so I wouldn't be to concerned in addressing that.

There are much.... much..... much more ways to mitigate damage than there are to mitigate afflictions in ways of surviving. Stick to using your offense as your defense.

Caladbolg

So I noticed with the changes to puppet tickle (After I just recoded up my old fashion/tickle script so thanks)

That if the person tumbles while they have stuttering.. You basically can't liberate now?

Puppet command say I'm gonna die worked 1/4 times.

Puppet tickle gives the message (You can't do that while your targets off balance) meaning I can no longer use tickle to force liberate..

So did Liberate just get kicked in the face or is there something im missing here for forcing someone to speak?

Archaeon

it's always been like that. can't tickle while they're off bal.