Class Tier List, H2 2018

Utianima

It's been a while since the great original "Class Tier List" discussion by @Kythra, and I was curious how much has changed in the 1.5 years that's passed.

Anyone want to take a stab at a new list? Here is the original one for reference:

Grouping info...

(SS)
S
A+
A
B
C
D
(E/F/G)
   + For those who ask about the letters from a tournament/competitive standpoint:
(SS) = Broken/Busted (Think Infernal with 251s and Frenzy) Not applied in this thread. Can use if you wish.
S = Dominant/Best Class. Consistently wins every matchup.
A+ = Somewhere between too strong and just right. Most people can pick it up and do decently well, and in the hands of a pro it's lethal.
A = Solo Viable. Wins most matchups.
B = Viable. Not consistent. Struggles with some classes.
C = Niche use. One tricks.
  + Not to say one tricks are bad, they usually go over and above to prove a point. But the class itself can't just be picked up and dominate the scene.
D = Unviable for competitive. Should not be used. And if someone loses to this tier/person, you/they usually learn the counterplay and never lose again.
(E/F/G) = Never seen. Not applied in this thread. Can use if you truly wish.

List...

S
---
Shaman
Monk
Sentinel

A+
---
Serpent
Priest
Paladin SnB 

A
---
Apostate (On the fence here between A or A+)
Bard
Blademaster
Sylvan
Infernal DwB
Runewarden SnB
Runewarden DwB (Runeblades)
~Depthswalker (I dont know enough about the class yet. Maybe B tier if you cant change routes on the go)

B
---
Magi
Occultist
Alchemist
Infernal DwC (Everyone has anti-vivi and vivi-mindgaming coding
Paladin DwC
Runewarden 2H (Hugalaz says surprise but smex)

C
---
Jester (In its current state. Pre-suicide mouse changes was A or so)
Infernal 2H
Paladin 2H
Paladin DwB
Runewarden DwB

D
---
Druid
Infernal SnB

[Deleted User]

These kinda lists suck in a game like Achaea. 90% of the responses are gonna be people biased against a handful of classes. 9.99% will base their responses off of 100% perfect theorycraft play which literally nobody has. And then there'll be those 1 or 2 who give reasonable answers that people will no doubt massively disagree with.

That above list proves as much, since it was "wrong" even when it was made.

Every single class has "top tier viability" - pretty much all there is to it. If you're assuming people playing perfectly every single fight though, then no class is going to have it. Though that's also incredibly unrealistic.

Cooper

I bet you're super fun at parties.

Exelethril

Only at lemon parties 

Leviticus

These are based off of my opinions and experiences with each class. Nope, I didn't theorycraft. Nope, I am not a good combatant. Nope, I don't have a Seragorn, Farrah, Iakimen, Rom , etc, etc, etc level of knowledge of each class, their counters and counter-counters. I assumed the combatant had the correct arties at level 3 (seriously who doesn't nowadays?)

S

---

Alchemist (Think Iakimen)

Occultist

Sentinel (Haven't seen too many around besides the Lyrin?? or something and Rangor) (Requires planning to stop people from leaving) (Pet management is a thing!)

Serpent  (With dex cap)

Infernal DWB (Unless fixed by now) (will lose to clumsy heavy classes)

Monk

A+

---

Depthswalker (damage route)

Paladin SnB 

Jester (Hit & Run)

Shaman

Runewarden SnB

Bard

A

---

Runewarden DwC (Runeblades)

Infernal DwC

Sylvan (Thornrend not propagation)

Apostate (curseward still a thing) (Anti-tumble is good!)

B

---

Magi

Paladin DwC

Priest (Haven't fought a good one yet)

Druid

C

---

Infernal 2H (gravehands)

Paladin 2H (piety)

Infernal 2H

Paladin 2H

Paladin DwB

Runewarden DwB

Sylvan (propagation route)

D

---

Runewarden 2H (just run, you'll be fine)

Blademaster (run on impaleslash, you'll be fine)

Infernal SnB

Dochitha

My Take, based on my personal experience, PvP wise. Granted, I think all classes have their competitive advantages, and not every class has their potential tapped out, and their effectiveness lies in who plays them. I am listing based on matchups and certain abilities. I am also assuming fully artied out.

SS (Broken/Busted)
Druid

S (Consistently wins most matchups)
- Infernal DWB
- Runie DWB

A+ (Lethal in the hands of pros)
- Monk
- Blademaster
- Infernal DWC
- Infernal 2H
- Magi
- Serpent

A (Solo viable)
- Alchemist
- S&B
- Sentinel
- Sylvan
- Paladin

B (not consistent, struggles)
- Depthswalker
- Occultist
- Apostate
- Shaman

C (one trick)
- Bard
- Jester

D (not competitive)
- Runie 2H
- Pally 2H
- Priest

Aegoth

Druid is mostly S bc of the hydra bug tho

Penwize

Aegoth said:

Druid is mostly S bc of the hydra bug tho

Uh, what bug? Far as I know it works the way it's meant to, it's just in desperate need of a classlead to make it ... not work like that, because it's incredibly overpowered.

Aegoth

@Taryius explain the bug

Dochitha

Aegoth said:

Druid is mostly S bc of the hydra bug tho

I edited and make Druid SS (broken), mainly because Hydra bind's cooldown of like 10s is a serious problem for Druid being a quick prep class that has very reliable finisher at the same time. The bind is very hindering against any momentum classes, not sure any other aff momentum classes can achieve a kill within 7s of writhing out and getting roped again, except maybe lethal serpent that can burst out a lock within 7s. Not to mention with bind is paired with stun bomb, further improving it's already broken effectiveness.

Maybe if hydra bind is moved into normal balance from class balance, it will work better.

[Deleted User]

That list seems really... Bad.

None of those 'B/C' classes are worse than Blademaster, certainly not worse than Infernal 2h. Lmao what?

Alchemist only A? @Iakimen

Depthswalker B? @Atalkez @Penwize

Bard C? @Dunn @Farrah

Hello? Shaman is definitely not B-tier, either. Druid would also be very powerful even if the 'bug' didn't work the way it does. Reclaim is very consistent when setup/executed right, since you can break the final limb/reclaim in the same balance (working as intended, from Makarios himself).

Taryius

Penwize said:

Aegoth said:

Druid is mostly S bc of the hydra bug tho

Uh, what bug? Far as I know it works the way it's meant to, it's just in desperate need of a classlead to make it ... not work like that, because it's incredibly overpowered.

As the Hydra scroll reads, druid's can use 2nd head skills with no balance loss if immediately following a 1st head category skill, this is how it was designed. Hydra bite prefarar/Hydra roar in the same attack.

The bug is as follows, you can use 2nd head skills with 0 balance so long as your last action was a 1st head skill. This means you can hydra bite prefarar (which consumes balance) and then once you get balance back prepend your next attack with a 2nd head skill.

This is reminiscent of blademasters old delayed strike for free impale and allows you to start your setup with a 2nd Head attack for free without wasting any balance on a useless 1st head skill. 

In practice, this lets you prone + double break on your first attack as a Druid, something they've been balanced around not having.


Hydra bite prefarar (strip deafness so roar works) -> wait for balance -> Hydra roar(prone)/Throw axe at left leg (break through parry)/hydra legclamp right -> throw axe at left arm -> hydra armclamp right/embrace.

1s window before you get proned and any reaction after the prone/double break won't matter. This is a much smaller window that hydra bind + roar gives and has no cooldown (unlike hydra bind). 

Kiet

Putting bard as one trick simply because shitty pkers buy an auto offense for it and do nothing else is about as wrong as I've seen an opinion be in a videogame.

Shaman/bard are both inarguably as strong or stronger than serpent, definitely stronger than BM barring arty disparity. Neither of them 'struggle.'

Also yeah druid's only that good cause of a bug, though hydra bind does make it absurdly good vs momentum in general.

Shirszae

I am not sure what possessed you to put Infernal 2h on A+ and Runie 2h on D. Hard to take that list seriously. I mean, everything else aside, Runie 2h is absolutely superior to its infernal counterpart, and I haven't seen any Infernal demonstrate the contrary.

Taryius

Infernal definitely has perks to it, but it is arguable if they put it above Runie. Either way, there is no way its a difference of 3+ whole grades.

If Infernal 2H didn't conflict with my int spec, int race and int arties, I would 100% mutliclass it again. It was very fun.

Minifie

Taryius said:

Infernal definitely has perks to it, but it is arguable if they put it above Runie. Either way, there is no way its a difference of 3+ whole grades.

If Infernal 2H didn't conflict with my int spec, int race and int arties, I would 100% mutliclass it again. It was very fun.

decay spec bro.

[Deleted User]

Minifie said:

Taryius said:

Infernal definitely has perks to it, but it is arguable if they put it above Runie. Either way, there is no way its a difference of 3+ whole grades.

If Infernal 2H didn't conflict with my int spec, int race and int arties, I would 100% mutliclass it again. It was very fun.

decay spec bro.

taint/arc spam with dreadblade.

Minifie

Pyori said:

Minifie said:

Taryius said:

Infernal definitely has perks to it, but it is arguable if they put it above Runie. Either way, there is no way its a difference of 3+ whole grades.

If Infernal 2H didn't conflict with my int spec, int race and int arties, I would 100% mutliclass it again. It was very fun.

decay spec bro.

taint/arc spam with dreadblade.

I thought 2h artefacts were also out of the running, had to only used forged, if dreadblade is on the table then get in on that spam.

[Deleted User]

Minifie said:

Pyori said:

Minifie said:

Taryius said:

Infernal definitely has perks to it, but it is arguable if they put it above Runie. Either way, there is no way its a difference of 3+ whole grades.

If Infernal 2H didn't conflict with my int spec, int race and int arties, I would 100% mutliclass it again. It was very fun.

decay spec bro.

taint/arc spam with dreadblade.

I thought 2h artefacts were also out of the running, had to only used forged, if dreadblade is on the table then get in on that spam.

He did say "assuming fully artied out".

Farrah

These tiers confuse me.

If something is "solo viable" to me, it must be "lethal in the hands of pros." Otherwise it's really not viable at all. Hard to see the need for both S and SS too.

Dochitha

Pyori said:

That list seems really... Bad.

None of those 'B/C' classes are worse than Blademaster, certainly not worse than Infernal 2h. Lmao what?

Alchemist only A? @Iakimen

Depthswalker B? @Atalkez @Penwize

Bard C? @Dunn @Farrah

Hello? Shaman is definitely not B-tier, either. Druid would also be very powerful even if the 'bug' didn't work the way it does. Reclaim is very consistent when setup/executed right, since you can break the final limb/reclaim in the same balance (working as intended, from Makarios himself).

BM wrecks all B/C for sure.
Alchemist can't make it to A cos it's momentum, not prep.
Depthswalker is B, cos Atalkez's own monk can beat his own DW, and Penwize's own serpent can beat his own DW.
Yes Bard is at best C. Though my Bard can take on A/B, but I still rate it C, I know Bard's limitations.
Shaman is B cos of struggles, attempts and surviving before A+ and A does their stuffs.

Dochitha

Taryius said:

Hydra bite prefarar (strip deafness so roar works) -> wait for balance -> Hydra roar(prone)/Throw axe at left leg (break through parry)/hydra legclamp right -> throw axe at left arm -> hydra armclamp right/embrace.

Can time a delayed pre-apply following undeaf, immediate pre-apply doesn't work cos they could avoid it with epseth and double arm breaks instead. Still, there's always workaround to counter pre-apply.

[Deleted User]

Dochitha said:

Pyori said:

That list seems really... Bad.

None of those 'B/C' classes are worse than Blademaster, certainly not worse than Infernal 2h. Lmao what?

Alchemist only A? @Iakimen

Depthswalker B? @Atalkez @Penwize

Bard C? @Dunn @Farrah

Hello? Shaman is definitely not B-tier, either. Druid would also be very powerful even if the 'bug' didn't work the way it does. Reclaim is very consistent when setup/executed right, since you can break the final limb/reclaim in the same balance (working as intended, from Makarios himself).

BM wrecks all B/C for sure.
Alchemist can't make it to A cos it's momentum, not prep.
Depthswalker is B, cos Atalkez's own monk can beat his own DW, and Penwize's own serpent can beat his own DW.
Yes Bard is at best C. Though my Bard can take on A/B, but I still rate it C, I know Bard's limitations.
Shaman is B cos of struggles, attempts and surviving before A+ and A does their stuffs.

Literally none of this is true.

Go and fight Iakimen Alchemist if you think that. Or Farrah. Or Seragorn. Or Zulah. Or (as of recently) Dunn. If being prep is your metric to go by, then Bard, Shaman, Jester, Sylvan, Sentinel should all be higher on your list.

Atalkez regularly fought (and won) against pretty much every class as DW. As does Penwize, Penwize also beats serpents regularly as DW.

You obviously don't know Bard's limitations, given you think it's a one trick class. The only thing that gave Dunn Bard trouble, was Iakimen Alchemist. I dunno if Farrah really had trouble with anything as Bard.

Shaman does not have issue surviving. I dunno who told you that one.

Kiet

Dochitha said:

Pyori said:

That list seems really... Bad.

None of those 'B/C' classes are worse than Blademaster, certainly not worse than Infernal 2h. Lmao what?

Alchemist only A? @Iakimen

Depthswalker B? @Atalkez @Penwize

Bard C? @Dunn @Farrah

Hello? Shaman is definitely not B-tier, either. Druid would also be very powerful even if the 'bug' didn't work the way it does. Reclaim is very consistent when setup/executed right, since you can break the final limb/reclaim in the same balance (working as intended, from Makarios himself).

BM wrecks all B/C for sure.
Alchemist can't make it to A cos it's momentum, not prep.
Depthswalker is B, cos Atalkez's own monk can beat his own DW, and Penwize's own serpent can beat his own DW.
Yes Bard is at best C. Though my Bard can take on A/B, but I still rate it C, I know Bard's limitations.
Shaman is B cos of struggles, attempts and surviving before A+ and A does their stuffs.

No offense but if you think bard is a C, that's user error, not bard's limitations. There's a reason bard is so popular to just buy a system for, because even just half-assing the class it's very dangerous.

Shaman is not particularly tanky but they can be very slippery and set up entire areas quickly if they really want to, along with having some of the best hinder in the game. Not sure what you're on about. 

Also, if momentum classes can't make it to A+, wtf is serp doing on there? Especially vs aff classes that CAN prep?

Dochitha

Pyori said:

Dochitha said:

Pyori said:

That list seems really... Bad.

None of those 'B/C' classes are worse than Blademaster, certainly not worse than Infernal 2h. Lmao what?

Alchemist only A? @Iakimen

Depthswalker B? @Atalkez @Penwize

Bard C? @Dunn @Farrah

Hello? Shaman is definitely not B-tier, either. Druid would also be very powerful even if the 'bug' didn't work the way it does. Reclaim is very consistent when setup/executed right, since you can break the final limb/reclaim in the same balance (working as intended, from Makarios himself).

BM wrecks all B/C for sure.
Alchemist can't make it to A cos it's momentum, not prep.
Depthswalker is B, cos Atalkez's own monk can beat his own DW, and Penwize's own serpent can beat his own DW.
Yes Bard is at best C. Though my Bard can take on A/B, but I still rate it C, I know Bard's limitations.
Shaman is B cos of struggles, attempts and surviving before A+ and A does their stuffs.

Literally none of this is true.

Go and fight Iakimen Alchemist if you think that. Or Farrah. Or Seragorn. Or Zulah. Or (as of recently) Dunn. If being prep is your metric to go by, then Bard, Shaman, Jester, Sylvan, Sentinel should all be higher on your list.

Atalkez regularly fought (and won) against pretty much every class as DW. As does Penwize, Penwize also beats serpents regularly as DW.

You obviously don't know Bard's limitations, given you think it's a one trick class. The only thing that gave Dunn Bard trouble, was Iakimen Alchemist. I dunno if Farrah really had trouble with anything as Bard.

Shaman does not have issue surviving. I dunno who told you that one.

I fought all of them you mentioned, except Penwize. I am not comparing who's better than who. I am comparing the class's potential. Maybe you want Alchemist to be A+, that's fine, I am not challenging your list, I showed my list. I didn't say Shaman has issue surviving, was saying their prep time vs A/B.

Kiet

Your own tier logic is inconsistent. Momentum can't be A+, but serpents are there. Long prep time can't be high, but you have SnB high? A shaman can fashion a 'big enough' doll quicker than snb can prep.

[Deleted User]

Dochitha said:

 I didn't say Shaman has issue surviving, was saying their prep time vs A/B.

You literally said it struggles surviving, despite Shaman 'prep' actually being one of the fastest.

And still... Neither Bard, nor Jester, are one tricks. If you think that, you obviously don't know their limitations like you claim.

Dochitha said:

I am not comparing who's better than who. I am comparing the class's potential.

And I gave you examples for people who use the class to their full potential. You can't really say these things, without actually being able to defend why you think they're that way, else it's not a very useful list. Also what Kiet said, your logic is very heavily inconsistent and goes against your own list.

Klendathu

Can someone let me know what this magical trick is for bard?

Also, who's selling this system that will suddenly make me dangerous?

Sobriquet

Things this list is:

1 Hilarious 
2 Pointless 
3 Misleading 
4 Unhelpful.

I see no benefit in such an arbitry list in a game where all classes are balanced with a structured and we'll maintained Classlead system. Sure, the Hydra skill sounds like it's needing to be looked at but its common knowledge that all classes have different strenghths and weaknesses against various other match ups. And thankfully so, too.

This list does to two things:

1 Appear to show a lack of combat understanding across the classes, which surprises me with Doch. 
2 Set a very dangerous mindset for Newbies coming in who might see this and start taking it seriously.

Kiet

Klendathu said:

Can someone let me know what this magical trick is for bard?

Also, who's selling this system that will suddenly make me dangerous?

It's a hard class to play if you don't just make someone else write your offense, so really you're probably just missing practice and learning more about aff combat. Even with someone doing your offense, though, there's a lot of nuance and strategies that most people never even attempt with bard, simply because it's either too difficult or because what they have is 'good enough.'

Klendathu

Kiet said:

Klendathu said:

Can someone let me know what this magical trick is for bard?

Also, who's selling this system that will suddenly make me dangerous?

It's a hard class to play if you don't just make someone else write your offense, so really you're probably just missing practice and learning more about aff combat. Even with someone doing your offense, though, there's a lot of nuance and strategies that most people never even attempt with bard, simply because it's either too difficult or because what they have is 'good enough.'

It was (I am) a joke... I'm slowly learning my way around it, after a looooong period of sucking. I still suck, just marginally less