Welcome to the Achaea Forums! Please be sure to read the Forum Rules.

Class Tier List, H2 2018

2

Comments

  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,391 @ - Epic Achaean
    I love all your comments! Yes it's my personal list. Also, newbies shouldn't take this list seriously, it's my personal opinion and completely at the end of fully artied and lots of my personal experience with how these classes work. That said, I am always adjusting my list, proof me wrong, spar me in game, plz.
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 1,312 @ - Epic Achaean
    Unless you're capable of playing every single class in the game at a top-tier level, sparring isn't gonna do jack shit to "prove you wrong" I'm sorry. The purpose of a tier list is to determine the overall capability of what a class can do, not seeing if it's good vs only the one-three classes you play. This is why you have so many people questioning your choices.
    You still have yet to explain why you think the way you do. Your argument regarding Alchemist was just "it's not prep so it only gets A" which uh... isn't very good reasoning. You still haven't said why infernal 2h is supposedly better than runewarden 2h despite everyone saying you're incorrect. You've implied momentum can't be higher than A+, yet have Serpent there. And that Jester/Shaman are low because their 'prep' is too slow, despite being at least twice as fast as SnB.

  • ArchaeonArchaeon Member Posts: 92 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    You can wank more than one time a day mate. 
  • DunnDunn The great Buffalo tundraMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,065 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If you read closely between the lines you'll see the words 'twenty times'.


    Caelan
  • MellexoMellexo Member Posts: 25
    What is the Jester's one trick? 

  • SobriquetSobriquet Member Posts: 2,264 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mellexo said:
    What is the Jester's one trick? 

    Well, there is quite a few to choose from with Jester...
    image
    MellexoDochitha
  • MellexoMellexo Member Posts: 25
    Sobriquet said:
    Mellexo said:
    What is the Jester's one trick? 

    Well, there is quite a few to choose from with Jester...
    Oh, someone said that in their reply is all :) 
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 1,312 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited November 2018
    I figured I'd give actual input, in line with the thread's request.
    Tier 1
    ------
    Alchemist
    Bard
    Druid
    DWB Infernal
    Monk (Tekura)

    Tier 1.5 - Not quite T1, but better than T2.
    --------------------------------------------
    DWB Runewarden
    Jester
    Serpent (hard to say, either 1.5 or 2)
    Shaman
    Tier 2
    ------
    Apostate
    Depthswalker
    Monk (Shikudo- could maybe be 1.5 as well)
    SNB Paladin
    SNB Runewarden
    Sylvan
    Tier 2.5 - Not quite T2, but better than T3.
    --------------------------------------------
    Dragon (maybe T2, depends on a number of things)
    DWC Infernal
    DWC Runewarden
    Magi   ( ^ )
    Occultist
    Priest (maybe T3, maybe T2, haven't really seen their 'new' changes)
    Sentinel
    Tier 3
    ------
    (Note: None of these are bad, per se. All 3 of these could very well be higher than T3. There's a lot of factors in Achaea combat.)

    Blademaster - Don't think it's awful, just nothing particularly going for it vs competent people.
    Two-hander Infernal - Admittedly never really seen it. People say it's viable, I think it has the same linear issues that Runewarden 2h does.
    Two-hander Runewarden - Linear, kinda hit or miss versus a lot of people. Can always RNG people to death with hugalaz.
    Lol why?
    --------
    2h/dwb paladin. Why would you play this.

    A few notes.

    1. The order within the tiers is purely alphabetical. It's not saying, for instance, that Sentinel is worse than Occultist. Nor are all the ones in the tiers equal, they're just better than the ones in the tier below.
    2. I'm tired, I'll provide my reasonings when I wake up later. T3 has small explanations because I figure with those 3 in particular, people would be like "wtf no????"
    3. My listings are based on an overall spectrum. Not how they do versus everyone, but their entire kit's capability and the practical usefulness of said kit.
    4. Elemental Lords I'm not including, nobody is gonna agree on those except Fire Lord being in the last tier.

    Sleep time, now.

    CailinKietCerys
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,191 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Pyori said:
    Dochitha said:
    Pyori said:
    That list seems really... Bad.
    None of those 'B/C' classes are worse than Blademaster, certainly not worse than Infernal 2h. Lmao what?
    Alchemist only A? @Iakimen
    Depthswalker B? @Atalkez @Penwize
    Bard C? @Dunn @Farrah
    Hello? Shaman is definitely not B-tier, either. Druid would also be very powerful even if the 'bug' didn't work the way it does. Reclaim is very consistent when setup/executed right, since you can break the final limb/reclaim in the same balance (working as intended, from Makarios himself).
    BM wrecks all B/C for sure.
    Alchemist can't make it to A cos it's momentum, not prep.
    Depthswalker is B, cos Atalkez's own monk can beat his own DW, and Penwize's own serpent can beat his own DW.
    Yes Bard is at best C. Though my Bard can take on A/B, but I still rate it C, I know Bard's limitations.
    Shaman is B cos of struggles, attempts and surviving before A+ and A does their stuffs.
    Literally none of this is true.
    Go and fight Iakimen Alchemist if you think that. Or Farrah. Or Seragorn. Or Zulah. Or (as of recently) Dunn. If being prep is your metric to go by, then Bard, Shaman, Jester, Sylvan, Sentinel should all be higher on your list.
    Atalkez regularly fought (and won) against pretty much every class as DW. As does Penwize, Penwize also beats serpents regularly as DW.
    You obviously don't know Bard's limitations, given you think it's a one trick class. The only thing that gave Dunn Bard trouble, was Iakimen Alchemist. I dunno if Farrah really had trouble with anything as Bard.
    Shaman does not have issue surviving. I dunno who told you that one.
    Jhui tekura monk was my weakness as bard. Still though, it's more "one weakness" than "one trick." Bard is extremely flexible.

    Part of the problem with tier rankings though, in general, is the relevance of matchup. Good tekura monk is extremely difficult to beat as bard, for example, and really shouldn't lose. But bard annihilates a lot of other classes to the point of being broken in some matchups.

    Alchemist doesn't struggle as a momentum class. DW does, but alchemist is great at keeping momentum. I'd have a really hard time ranking classes though. I agree druid is currently broken. After that, my intuition is B - DW/maybe priest, C - BM/2h/pally dwc. Everything else is A.
    Kiet
  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,391 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited November 2018
    Pyori said:
    Unless you're capable of playing every single class in the game at a top-tier level, sparring isn't gonna do jack shit to "prove you wrong" I'm sorry. The purpose of a tier list is to determine the overall capability of what a class can do, not seeing if it's good vs only the one-three classes you play. This is why you have so many people questioning your choices.
    I don't play 1 or 3 classes ...you don't know me, hence your input is attempting to challenge rather than trying to see from my pov. Tbf, I don't know you either, so I can't really argue from your pov. Likewise, I don't agree to your list, let's keep it that way... we are not getting married.
  • DridenDriden Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    your all so bad at this let me show you the real list. 

    SSSSSSSS++++=+++
    occie
    Z tier (not worth playing)
    everything else. 

    there we go. 
    Cooper said:
    This is one of the worst forms of special snowflake RP I've ever seen. Thanks for going to another city to do it!
    Dochitha
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,103 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't agree with everything on Pyori's list but imo that's a much more accurate reflection. of at least the most powerful classes
  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,391 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited November 2018
    Alchemist doesn't get to A+ cos copying Kenway, slow prep and fast prep are going to give trouble. I'd have put serpent on S (regardless they are not prep) if not their issues with DWB's quick prep and damage, so I lowered it to A+ cos the matchup is pretty clear cut.

    I have met BMs able to handle everything (aff and prep) except damage, and given their defensive toolkit and reliable offense, Can't find myself lowering BM, so I am keeping them in A+.

    I am keeping Alchemist ahead of all other aff momentum classes cos Alchemist has less struggle over gaining momentum. They also have a few paths to kill different classes, not so linear.

    Bard is in a weird place, it's potential isn't fully tapped or played consistently. If I were to rank it against momentum classes, I am inclined to put it at the top, but due to lack of class room hinder (othr than prep), the matchup becomes apparent and doesn't put them there. I can't rank Bard against prep classes as Bard doesn't have a class based prep-finisher (not counting in salve/rift related locks). Hence I put it together with Jester, in it's own isolated category.


  • NylianNylian Member Posts: 123 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Blademaster is shit tier. Nobody play it except for me, please. *innocence*
    Dochitha
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,103 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2018
    Dochitha said:
    Alchemist doesn't get to A+ cos copying Kenway, slow prep and fast prep are going to give trouble. I'd have put serpent on S (regardless they are not prep) if not their issues with DWB's quick prep and damage, so I lowered it to A+ cos the matchup is pretty clear cut.

    I have met BMs able to handle everything (aff and prep) except damage, and given their defensive toolkit and reliable offense, Can't find myself lowering BM, so I am keeping them in A+.

    I am keeping Alchemist ahead of all other aff momentum classes cos Alchemist has less struggle over gaining momentum. They also have a few paths to kill different classes, not so linear.

    Bard is in a weird place, it's potential isn't fully tapped or played consistently. If I were to rank it against momentum classes, I am inclined to put it at the top, but due to lack of class room hinder (othr than prep), the matchup becomes apparent and doesn't put them there. I can't rank Bard against prep classes as Bard doesn't have a class based prep-finisher (not counting in salve/rift related locks). Hence I put it together with Jester, in it's own isolated category.


    Serpent is not any better at fighting prep than alchemist is, lol.
    When's the last time a BM pk'd someone top tier reliably?
    You rank bard assuming they don't know how to break a limb, for some reason. You don't need a finisher when even without salve abuse you can lock extremely quickly in the window someone's prone. The idea that you need a 'finisher' to make resto breaks worthwhile is some extreme narrow-mindedness.
    Farrah
  • VinzentVinzent Member Posts: 80 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Only problem with BM is you can literally P2W against it.
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,103 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah but that's a pretty big problem if we're considering full arties on a list
  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,391 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited November 2018
    Kiet said:
    Serpent is not any better at fighting prep than alchemist is, lol.
    When's the last time a BM pk'd someone top tier reliably?
    You rank bard assuming they don't know how to break a limb, for some reason. You don't need a finisher when even without salve abuse you can lock extremely quickly in the window someone's prone. The idea that you need a 'finisher' to make resto breaks worthwhile is some extreme narrow-mindedness.
    Show me your list @Kiet. Why don't you guys look at my list and try finding why it's that way, calling narrow mindedness is pointless when you tunnel vision yourself... 
  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,391 @ - Epic Achaean
    Vinzent said:
    Only problem with BM is you can literally P2W against it.
    You lazy BMs!
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 2,147 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Iakimen said:
    Alright, you're doing Alchemist a disservice, so I'm going to talk about it. Also note I'm going to pretend that Jester doesn't exist which isn't really pretending because they don't exist.

    I'm not sure what this prep vs momentum or slow prep and fast prep bullshit you're spouting is, but it looks like you have a fundamental misunderstanding about how prep vs momentum works. It's not as simple as slow prep always winning vs momentum. Here's how I look at it. If the momentum class is able to reliably survive the prep class's execute, the match-up depends primarily on player skill. If the momentum class dies regularly to it instead - whether due to mechanics, lack of player skill, lack of pay2win items, whatever - then I'd favor the prep class. The later situation fits a lot of match-ups, like the aforementioned tek monk vs. bard. Tekura monk has the tools to both stall the bard's momentum (even through the prep options the bard has available, though it makes the margin for error considerably smaller than just running at any point) and an execute that if done properly by an artied strength monk leaves the bard with no room for escape, realistically. Outside of anthem and pax (I'm sure that's of great comfort to bard players). This is a poor situation, because no matter how good the bard is, there is little they can do against a good tekura monk.  

    But Alchemist is different, because the real strength to the class (which absolutely no one seems to talk about) is that it has some of the best overall defense in the game. Fantastic active hinder, active defense, prone defense, passive resists, good mobility, utility in formulation that has something for every match-up, the class has it all. There are no prep classes the Alchemist cannot survive reliably against in the game currently besides Druid with how Hydra is working atm and DWB Infernal. Even here, it is not that clear cut. The DWB Infernal is a very easy match-up for the Alchemist, so surviving their prep execute tends to be irrelevant. Druid is slightly more ambivalent - having two binds, one on a secondary balance, enables them to turtle successfully enough to reach their prep execute, alongside the ability to quickly prep and prone break with ease. This still doesn't really matter though - Alchemist have the ability to survive every damage/reclamation setup the Druid can do, bar the ones with how the 2nd hydra head is currently operating. If you can survive or handle every prep class in the game, then you shouldn't die to one. That's Alchemist.

    If you play Alchemist well you should be threatening a kill on a slow-prep class from 0 in 10-15s at the earliest with shriek lock, and ~20-30 with longer routes. In turn, most slow prep classes are going to take over a full minute to fully prep you while they actively try to survive your numerous inundates. Alchemist has one of the strongest shield punishers in the game with fast reave, and their mobile hinder makes it difficult to hit-and-run normally. Fly spam with rof or aerial on a nimble alch with level 2 diadem only stalls, and I've been content to loop educes on a fly spamming slow prepper until their prep resets - while my humors have stayed at the same level. The only class that can effectively fly spam is Druid with bind, and even this isn't as bad for the Alchemist as it seems. Druids that leave the room let you take advantage of halophilic, which is potent and stalls the Druid further, particularly when they're about to execute. This lets you exert control over the timing of their instakill, which lets you counter-play. Additionally, the near on-demand lethargy access in conjunction with paralysis is very strong, because even with the current prone/double break combo the reclamation won't complete under lethargy.

    Besides that case of Druid, there is only one other prep class that can reliably leave the room against the Alchemist on demand (as in not risking homunculus block, or tumbling, or outside assistance like earrings, or something easy to counter like raido) and that's BM behind hamstring/icewall/meditate, or leap high/touch shield, with phoenix for a save. I've never found this class to be an issue. It takes a considerable amount of prepping to prepare an artied Alchemist for a brokenstar that'll actually be lethal (even with a level 3 band), and this in conjunction with frequent and active slow-prepping runs the risk of actually hitting the 3 minutes limb decay. Even if they reach the prep and go into the execute, I can avoid the actual kill with ease. Pommel + voidfist is not a viable locking threat in its current state, just a bit of an annoyance that can stall you and may require some turtling if they get good rng. Their salvelocks are tricky but avoidable, and are fairly telegraphed (and requires decent player skill). Phoenix is the most frustrating part to this match-up, but it forces them to drop infuses more frequently, and you have alternative options. This match-up may test your patience, but Alchemist shouldn't lose it. Unless you run out of willpower. Then you'll lose.

    The most frustrating match-up for the Alchemist is probably the Priest, as realistically if both classes are played well the fight stalemates until someone runs out of resources (this can happen with other match-ups too, just that the Priest have good defensive options against Alch, and Alch likewise has good options against Priest). There are match-ups for the Alchemist that are harder than others - hinging on Alchemist's average momentum speed and poor ability to prone - but the class is very good. None of my deaths on Alchemist in 1v1s were mechanically unavoidable and wasn't a learn 2 play issue on my side. Besides dying to reclamation with the 2nd head use. But even then I could've stopped fucking around and killed the Druid faster so really I was being a cocky dumbass.

    I'm not going to talk about how Alchemist matches up against each prep class in the game, as that'll be very long. But your comments on the class display a lot of ignorance on how Alchemist works and how they match against prep classes, and I don't want that to spread. Prep classes are only a problem if you think they are. The only thing stopping an Alchemist from beating everyone in the game atm is player skill (though admittedly you automate so player skill is a bit irrelevant). And maybe a lack of money.

    In an attempt to surpass mortal limitations, Iakimen has destroyed Dochitha in the name of science.



    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
    AralayaRyzan
  • ZheoZheo Member Posts: 70 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I agree with most of Pyori's list except for the fact that he used half tiers for no reason
    Cailin
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,345 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's worth mentioning that as an alchemist, access to lethargy/clumsiness/paralysis while building phlegm humors allows you to place an opponent on the backfoot quickly. Everyone suffers from lethargy, most classes suffer from clumsiness and everyone gets locked the same way - which means you don't have to tailor your offense. Alchemist momentum isn't affected by clumsy/rebounding/parry either, only lethargy and no classes have access to on-demand lethargy besides Shikudo.

    Almost all the locking affs are given at 8 phlegm, so you don't have to pay as much attention to what affs are on someone versus traditional aff/momentum classes too, which lets you pay attention to your defense more. I don't know any other class that can place as much pressure/hinder on an opponent as quickly as alch besides Shikudo. Though Shikudo doesn't have scaling room hinder (in exchange for prep) and even then, fighting a good Shikudo monk is pretty awful too.

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,091 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    no classes have access to on-demand lethargy besides Shikudo and 2h.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • SobriquetSobriquet Member Posts: 2,264 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Shirszae said:
    no classes have access to on-demand lethargy besides Shikudo and 2h and Occultist


    image
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,345 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Occie affs are random and 2H requires pre-damage

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
  • SobriquetSobriquet Member Posts: 2,264 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2018
    Occie affs are random and 2H requires pre-damage

    Do you even fight bro?  :open_mouth:

    image
  • TelinusTelinus Member Posts: 233 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I think you can instill lethargy
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,345 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Oh my bad, it's been awhile

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
2
Sign In to Comment.