Quick Combat Questions

Ahmet

@Frederich Roped and entangled are two different afflictions.

Krypton

Roped and entangled are the same thing. Bound is the affliction that's different.

Ahmet

Bound, right. Damn.

Klendathu

AFAIK, one can be roped and webbed and transfixed

Dunn

Don't threaten me with a good time 

Kalila

I have witnessed something spectacular.

Pommelstrike was dodged earlier, by a mounted Bard with 14 dex.

Dochitha

Kalila said:

I have witnessed something spectacular.

Pommelstrike was dodged earlier, by a mounted Bard with 14 dex.

Acrobatics on. Could still +2 via dex arty, light stepper, or even Raja. 

Dodge and Clumsiness both OP. Nerf please.

Ahmet

Dochitha said:

Kalila said:

I have witnessed something spectacular.

Pommelstrike was dodged earlier, by a mounted Bard with 14 dex.

Acrobatics on. Could still +2 via dex arty, light stepper, or even Raja. 

Dodge and Clumsiness both OP. Nerf please.

Acrobatics. Light stepper. Dex arty. Raja. Avoidance. Drunkensailor. Speed elixir. Riding boost.

Actual dex score is a very very small portion of the overall.

Dunn

We call those people 'totem bait'. 

Vallie

Is the int cap for Occies 16 or 17, and is it -0.1s for ent balance per int? What's the capped speed?

Does this change with diadem, or is the diadem just to bring the eq balances down?

Can ent balance be used off bal/eq?

Calira

The cap is at 17, and it's -0.1s from the listed AB value per point over 13. No other stat or arti affects ent bal at all. They work offbal and offeq, but not when paralysed or proned.

Bade

I'm trying to figure out what the cap on dstab is? At what point do artefact dirks and dex not do more? Thinking of switching from raja to xoran but trying to figure what I'll need. And is dex important for anything else?

Cooper

15 dex with a Thoth's is cap, I think you need 16 with a level 2. Not sure from there. 

Dex affects how much you dodge attacks, and also how fast your garrote is for bashing. (Maybe flay too?)

Ahmet

Sena said:

Dstab speed is base 2.8s (before nimble), reduced by 0.1s for each point of dex over 13, and reduced by 0.2s per level for artefact dirks. The speed cap is 2.1s, or 2s with a level 3 dirk.

So for max dstab speed you need a L3 dirk and 15 dex, and without a L3 dirk you'll reach the cap at 20 dex with a normal dirk, 18 dex with L1, 16 dex with L2.

The higher cap with a L3 dirk additionally means that you're only saving one point of dexterity (cap of 15 instead of 16) compared to L2, so that 1 extra point of con it allows isn't a giant tanking bonus, and you'll want more than 15 dex anyways if you want to maximise PvE as well (I don't know what the cap is for garrote, if any, but it's at least 17).

@Bade

This is all pre-Nimble, too.

Sena

The scaling has been changed since that quote from me. Dex is now -0.14s per point above 13, everything else is the same I think.

Ahmet

Will update my notes, then!

Vadik

This time in the right thread. DWC Runie, I feel like I'm doing decent at basic strategy in terms of working towards limb preps, playing it safe, and so on, but I really seem to struggle with building any sort of momentum on an opponent to stick nausea for parry bypass, much less getting towards some of these pseudo-locks I've seen discussed in some of the other threads, and just was wondering about what people think on the matter? I assume it's probably something relatively straightforward I'm just missing, but I don't really know any other DWC folks to talk to.

Anedhel

Make sure you're using curare on the left sword for most of your hits, or at least twice in every three DSLs. Since most people will cure paralysis over nearly everything else (unless they have a very specific reason for curing asthma first), you'll be able to stack up the other venoms. Obviously, avoid hitting rebounding, and make sure that you don't hit anyone with nausea in your first DSL, or second DSL. Better to bury it behind a few other afflictions, first, and then introduce it, since they'll be behind herb balance by that point, even if they put nausea ahead of, say, asthma or something like that, against Runewardens. 

Vadik

Anedhel said:

Make sure you're using curare on the left sword for most of your hits, or at least twice in every three DSLs. Since most people will cure paralysis over nearly everything else (unless they have a very specific reason for curing asthma first), you'll be able to stack up the other venoms. Obviously, avoid hitting rebounding, and make sure that you don't hit anyone with nausea in your first DSL, or second DSL. Better to bury it behind a few other afflictions, first, and then introduce it, since they'll be behind herb balance by that point, even if they put nausea ahead of, say, asthma or something like that, against Runewardens. 

Why left sword specifically? I've been working on burying nausea under a ginseng stack which generally is fine, though I've not found any good way to handle people with heavy hinder and a static parry.

Anedhel

Hitting with curare on the left sword ensures you never miss with the right! 

ETA: Classes that outhinder you can be a nuisance, but remember you can move and cure up, while your limb damage lingers, giving you the option to back away and come back to it. You don't have to stand toe-to-toe with everyone forever, as some classes will outafflict you, and that's just the way the cookie crumbles. 

Aerek

@Vadik You're probably over-thinking it. Sticking afflictions is just a matter maintaining momentum, realizing that DSL at a 2s balance beats herb balance at a 1.5, once you get ahead of it. They have time to cure both your afflictions on the first hit, but then start to fall behind. Observe:

</code><pre class="CodeBlock"><code><code>You Them<br>0.0 DSL curare/euphorbia 0.0 eat bloodroot [ill]<br> 1.5 eat ginseng<br>2.0 DSL curare/euphorbia [par ill]<br> 3.0 eat bloodroot [ill]<br>4.0 DSL curare/euphorbia [par ill] <b><--Can bypass here<br></b> 4.5 eat bloodroot [ill]<br>6.0 DSL curare/euphorbia 6.0 eat bloodroot [ill] <b><--Can bypass here<br></b> 7.5 eat ginseng<br>8.0 DSL curare/euphorbia [par ill]<br> 9.0 eat bloodroot [ill]</code></div>Granted, Tree tattoo does complicate matters if you're not aware of it or watching out for it, since that allows them to recover herb balance after the first DSL:<span><br></span><div class="Spoiler"><code>

0.0 DSL curare/euphorbia     0.0 eat bloodroot/Touch Tree<br>2.0 DSL curare/euphorbia     2.0 eat bloodroot [ill]<br>                             3.5 eat ginseng<br>4.0 DSL curare/euphorbia                       [par ill]<br>                             5.0 eat bloodroot [ill]<br>6.0 DSL curare/euphorbia                       [par ill]  <b><--Can bypass here<br></b>                             6.5 eat bloodroot [ill]<br>8.0 DSL curare/euphorbia     8.0 eat bloodroot [par ill]  <b><--Can bypass here<br></b>                             9.0 eat ginseng<code>You                          Them<br>

So even if all you're doing is spamming curare/euphorbia, you'll be sticking illness, and can start bypassing parry on the 3rd slash at the 4s mark. (or the 4th slash if Tree is used) Very simple in principle, the only thing that can really stop you from doing this is hesitation on your part, accidentally hitting parry too soon (ruining your own momentum), or heavy hindrance from your opponent.

Building on this, most of the world will cure paralysis>asthma>illness, so if you started looping kalmia after sticking euphorbia, then when the target does have a chance to eat a non-bloodroot herb, (e.g. 7.5 and 9.0 in the charts) they'll usually eat kelp, leaving illness in place, so you'd still be bypassing parry. However, if you're already using kelp rotations, that may honestly be part of your complications if you're not accounting for the different aff prios. While a lot of folks prioritize asthma>illness, clumsiness, sensitivity, and weariness are often much lower-prio affs, so if you're following a rotation of kalmia/xentio/prefarar/euphorbia, but they've cured the asthma at the time illness is given, then they may very well prio the illness before those other kelp affs. Also, if you're using a set rotation like this, it's possible that you're just not giving euphorbia soon enough or often enough, which means something is more likely to go wrong at the moments you do give illness.

My advice would be to sick euphorbia before you start your kelp rotation, if you don't already, and to color bloodroot/magnesium, kelp/aurum, and ginseng/ferrum eats something low-key so they aren't distracting, but that you can see their eating patterns. Since they will be eating bloodroot/magnesium most of the time, this will help you spot non-paralysis cures and help you adapt; I.E. when you see them eat ferrum, you know they don't have illness anymore and can quickly re-apply it, and you know that you should avoid their parry, so you don't lose your herb momentum.

Opponent hindrance is the biggest obstacle, here, that's just something you have to learn to work around, but even against the most frustrating par/clum spammers, you can usually duck out, cure to zero, come back in and get 3-4 slashes in to get a hit or two through parry.

Anedhel

Aerek did a good job explaining. One thing I will say, that I've noted, is that although sensitivity might not be super high on prios list, re-deffing deafness is often surprisingly high (I've seen it above clumsiness and weakness, in quite a few people), so that helps!

Vallie

@Vadik - I swing at 2.1s because I don't have trans weaponry, but what I've found is you can generally tell if they static parry early on (I generally attack all limbs a few times to see what they do). If they do, just prep every other limb, and any time you know nausea is stuck, take your swing on the parried limb instead of trying to do them one at a time. If you get to the point where it's just a few hits left, you can prep on an arm so you can also do an arm break before your first leg, or you can lure them into a wunjo/nairat room and finish off that last limb, then just start your break sequence on the opposite leg.

Dunn

Or just untargetted DSL until you stick nausea

Vadik

Dunn said:

Or just untargetted DSL until you stick nausea

I had given it some thought, but my concern was mostly around untargeted attacks feeling slightly "wasted" compared to prepping a limb, as I don't expect I'll kill someone with the >4500 health pool with raw damage, so I'm working towards the disembowel setup the whole time. 

Atalkez

Vadik said:

Dunn said:

Or just untargetted DSL until you stick nausea

I had given it some thought, but my concern was mostly around untargeted attacks feeling slightly "wasted" compared to prepping a limb, as I don't expect I'll kill someone with the >4500 health pool with raw damage, so I'm working towards the disembowel setup the whole time. 

The key is to have fluid limb swapping. I personally use untargetted because prepping an arm is generally a waste, unless I'm going for the specific addiction riftlock route. I generally start my fight untargetted to stick nausea then swap to limb prep. Personal preference.

Vadik

Well thanks for the input everyone, given me some new stuff to try out and see how it works out. 

Cooper

Weaponry shouldn't be affecting dsl speed either. Only damage/accuracy. 

Vallie

@Cooper weird, I consistently get 2.1s DSLs while everything I've read seems to suggest the base should be closer to 2.0 for forged. Is there something else that could be affecting speed?

@Vadik damage wise, I've found targetted DSLs + falcon damage isn't ignorable against some classes. I'm fairly sure untargetted could be decent health pressure if stacking sensitive/nausea, it's something I've been meaning to try.

Dunn

DWC already preps really fast anyways so I don't mind throwing in some untargeted DSLs if it means I'll get free reign on their limbs. I usually stick curare/kalmia before doing curare/euphorbia to buffer it with a couple of high prio afflictions.