Quick Combat Questions

Krypton

R.I.P. Besot / Obliterate.

Also, Kaibanish was last year.

Aerek

Nazihk said:

I'm okay with completely neutering it, honestly. BM has other solid kill options so it's not leaving the class toothless, and it's not a particularly interesting technique. Defensively it's boring because your counterplay options for it are "Hope RNGesus is merciful" and offensively it's boring because your main strategy is "Hope he isn't." It's effective, sure, but it's stupid and unfun.

To be fair, that's pretty much how I feel about the momentum classes and their movement blocks. More to the point, BM has very little offensive hinder, (impale shenanigans are more stalling than offensive) and no effective hinder if you're not bothered by clumsiness. This means I have to double-down on my Evade/slow-prep route against certain classes, and I don't find that particularly interesting or fun for anyone, either. I know I certainly don't enjoy running every 1-2 hits.

The Void route sacrifices the advantages of prep in return for a way to stay in the room and duke it out with other momentum classes. It's not necessary, no, but I think that's interesting, and if you can consistently get a cure in, nothing about this route is that debilitating either. It's only when you have a bad run of Void that rants make their way here, so I think capping consecutive eating blocks would go a long way to alleviate other class' (legitimate) concerns while not removing a tool from BM's arsenal.

Nazihk said:

My gut feeling is that voidfist is gonna take a substantial beating.

I am less certain. I wouldn't compare it to the Infuse Lightning change; in that instance, BM was better at locking than actual aff classes--obviously that was not intended--but Void has seen about 3 major re-works in the course of its lifetime, and its essence hasn't ever changed. Pommel's stun and Void's 30s duration were both nixxed to reduce Void's power, but then Pommel was also made to extend Void duration to allow tactics exactly like this, which tells me that BM is intended to have -some- lock potential, it just shouldn't outshine other affliction classes. (Basically like DSL Runewarden)

It's not like Makarios or the rest of us didn't realize Void locks were still possible. Isolated folks have been locking with Void for years without a lot of Admin or player concern, we're just seeing a spike in awareness of the topic as Mizik/Jhui/Armali/Kalila all picked up the tactic in a recent amount of time. So I foresee tweaks, not overhauls.

Calira

Aerek said:

More to the point, BM has very little offensive hinder, (impale shenanigans are more stalling than offensive) and no effective hinder if you're not bothered by clumsiness.

BM has a smaller amount of passive hinder than something like DWC, maybe, but to say it has 'very little' hinder is nuts. Prone -> impale to punish almost any action is pretty incredible hinder. Voidfist -> neck spam is pretty incredible hinder. Hamstring -> evade to make chasing impossible is, likewise, incredible hinder. Saving shin for Phoenix against clumsi-immune classes is something that can be very hard for them to deal with. As a pure prep class, BM -shouldn't- be able to go toe-to-toe with more momentum-oriented classes and come out ahead, especially not when it's backed by some of the strongest active defensive tools in the game.

Armali

I sure miss paralysis on lightning infuse.

Ahmet

Just take impatience away from bm. Problem mostly solved. 

Why do forums have no kappa face ;(

Atalkez

No thanks. Locking as BM was always the more fun way to go because it's so much harder than prepping. 

Aerek

Calira said:

Aerek said:

More to the point, BM has very little offensive hinder, (impale shenanigans are more stalling than offensive) and no effective hinder if you're not bothered by clumsiness.

BM has a smaller amount of passive hinder than something like DWC, maybe, but to say it has 'very little' hinder is nuts. Prone -> impale to punish almost any action is pretty incredible hinder. Voidfist -> neck spam is pretty incredible hinder. Hamstring -> evade to make chasing impossible is, likewise, incredible hinder. Saving shin for Phoenix against clumsi-immune classes is something that can be very hard for them to deal with. As a pure prep class, BM -shouldn't- be able to go toe-to-toe with more momentum-oriented classes and come out ahead, especially not when it's backed by some of the strongest active defensive tools in the game.

I'm not saying BM is defenseless, that's why I specified offensive hinder. Most classes hinder you while they're progressing toward their kill at the same time. Blademaster by and large does not, and must end its offense to use its hindering tools. The impale shenanigans don't move toward a kill unless you just let me go all the way to BrokenStar in that manner. Evade/running halts all offense, and Void/Neck doesn't progress to any kill if the lock threat is removed as some are suggesting here. These tactics are certainly effective, but they're what make fights long, drawn out affairs, which I don't think anyone really enjoys.

Void as-is is strong, but a tweaked Void would allow a lock+hindering approach that would still be less effective than Serpent, so I don't quite see an issue there. I don't see it as different from DSL having both lock-based and prep-based avenues, or Sylvan having both prep-based and momentum-based avenues.

Ahmet

Hamstring is plenty.

Armali

Technically not true, Aerek. Remember the old days when BM would just run you out of willpower? Since BM can impale off of nearly any balance, can impale without needing you to use balance at all if you don't ignore clumsiness, during which they can impaleslash you, it's perfectly valid to just run you dry.

Farrah

Aerek said:

Calira said:

Aerek said:

More to the point, BM has very little offensive hinder, (impale shenanigans are more stalling than offensive) and no effective hinder if you're not bothered by clumsiness.

BM has a smaller amount of passive hinder than something like DWC, maybe, but to say it has 'very little' hinder is nuts. Prone -> impale to punish almost any action is pretty incredible hinder. Voidfist -> neck spam is pretty incredible hinder. Hamstring -> evade to make chasing impossible is, likewise, incredible hinder. Saving shin for Phoenix against clumsi-immune classes is something that can be very hard for them to deal with. As a pure prep class, BM -shouldn't- be able to go toe-to-toe with more momentum-oriented classes and come out ahead, especially not when it's backed by some of the strongest active defensive tools in the game.

I'm not saying BM is defenseless, that's why I specified offensive hinder. Most classes hinder you while they're progressing toward their kill at the same time. Blademaster by and large does not, and must end its offense to use its hindering tools. The impale shenanigans don't move toward a kill unless you just let me go all the way to BrokenStar in that manner. Evade/running halts all offense, and Void/Neck doesn't progress to any kill if the lock threat is removed as some are suggesting here. These tactics are certainly effective, but they're what make fights long, drawn out affairs, which I don't think anyone really enjoys.

Void as-is is strong, but a tweaked Void would allow a lock+hindering approach that would still be less effective than Serpent, so I don't quite see an issue there. I don't see it as different from DSL having both lock-based and prep-based avenues, or Sylvan having both prep-based and momentum-based avenues.

Some classes are designed to have less offensive hinder and more defensive stuff. BM is one of those classes. It's just a different style.

Knight and Sylvan don't have evade, hamstring, and Phoenix.

Calira

Aerek said:

I'm not saying BM is defenseless, that's why I specified offensive hinder. Most classes hinder you while they're progressing toward their kill at the same time. Blademaster by and large does not, and must end its offense to use its hindering tools.

You're right, but the distinction of 'offensive hinder' vs. 'stalling' is a meaningless one when it comes to prep. Blademaster prepping is a less extreme version of fashioning, which provides literally zero hinder whatsoever, but is backed up by a class with strong active defenses. I think it would be pretty crazy to suggest that throwing Hangedman isn't helping progress towards a kill. Hangedman doesn't build fashions, but it's not like the Jester is losing fashions when they throw it - they're just ensuring they live long enough to use them. A Blademaster using impale is the exact same. Impale doesn't damage limbs, but the limb damage that you build in between impales doesn't vanish. Also, you prep limbs faster than a Jester can fashion, and there's zero cooldown on impale, and impale tends to be a -much- stronger momentum halt by virtue of most classes having to wait for bal to begin writhing off - not to mention that the appropriate response to getting impaleslashed is to GTFO, not to ignore it and carry on.

Aerek

Armali said:

Technically not true, Aerek. Remember the old days when BM would just run you out of willpower? Since BM can impale off of nearly any balance, can impale without needing you to use balance at all if you don't ignore clumsiness, during which they can impaleslash you, it's perfectly valid to just run you dry.

Possible, yes. Intended by design and balanced around? I hope not.

I guess a difference I'm picking up is that, as someone who primarily enjoys consensual sparring/dueling, I actually want my opponent to enjoy fighting me and want to do it again. These slow-prep, scorched-earth tactics don't appeal to me, because folks stop wanting to fight you if you always make it irritating for them. No one likes fighting Jesters.

Borran

Aerek said:

Armali said:

Technically not true, Aerek. Remember the old days when BM would just run you out of willpower? Since BM can impale off of nearly any balance, can impale without needing you to use balance at all if you don't ignore clumsiness, during which they can impaleslash you, it's perfectly valid to just run you dry.

... No one likes fighting Jesters.

And yet.. their only stable kill route fails of you decide to stop fighting them. Just leave. They can only slow you down.  They can't stop you. 

Nazihk

Aerek said:I guess a difference I'm picking up is that, as someone who primarily enjoys consensual sparring/dueling, I actually want my opponent to enjoy fighting me and want to do it again. These slow-prep, scorched-earth tactics don't appeal to me, because folks stop wanting to fight you if you always make it irritating for them. No one likes fighting Jesters.

People ain't exactly gonna be lining up around the block to fight the affliction class whose gimmick is "Maybe you can cure your afflictions, maybe you can't!"

Exelethril

Being mounted with decent dex/clumsy spam/light stepper vs bm is so bm

Asmodron

I feel the complaints being given about blademaster seem more inclined to little experience rather than actual forethought.


To imply BM is one of the best hinderers is nuts. The impale shenanigans you mention are not exactly workable against everyone and frankly dont really go anywhere. Any smart opponent can easily manage it. Much of the time, if a BM is trying to 'sneak a pommel impale', then they are wasting their precious squishy time on trying to get cheesy impales, rather than actually follow through with a strategy.


Try to pommel impale a serpent, 2h, shaman, or dragon that knows what they are doing, then:

Let's say you -did- get your impale in. What then? You get an impaleslash and...whoops there they run off to. Try to get a hamstring in beforehand? Okay, let's throw in a hamstring and try to sneak a pommel impale in during the time frame and hope it lasts long enough. Even if you did get an impale and impaleslash, Now to follow through...but wait..they arent using balance to try another cheesy combo, rather they are just sipping and curing...darn, time to prep? :P


You cant really use the argument of "they have an impale shenanigans" as the basis of "BM are strong at hindering", especially if it is based on the opponent attacking first to use balance (an hopefully not hindering you).

Calira

Strike knees doesn't have to follow Pommelstrike. Delaying a knee strike until right before you recover balance from any other slash will pretty much guarantee the impale on any off-balance target, even one as quick as a Serpent. And what then, after getting the impale? You don't have to do anything with it at all for it to be valuable. The 2.5 second delay tacked on to the end of their balance is devastating. If you really wanted to be mean, you could withdraw/touch shield right before they writhe off, delaying them even further. If you did impaleslash and the target did run, then they lost 100% of their momentum running away from a pure prep class. If you upkeep hamstring on them - which is very doable, since the duration was extended to 10s - then you can even keep pace with them while continuing to prep.

Asmodron said:

You cant really use the argument of "they have an impale shenanigans" as the basis of "BM are strong at hindering", especially if it is based on the opponent attacking first to use balance (an hopefully not hindering you).

To be clear, impale shennanigans is one tool of many in the BM arsenal - the strongest, in my opinion, but not the only one by a long shot. And if your suggested defence against impale hinder is to never attack the BM or consume balance/eq, then I don't think you're arguing from a place of good faith

Armali

@Asmodron
I can tell you 100% that none of these complaints are based off of 'little experience' and that you yourself don't have anywhere near the level of technique that @Mizik or @Kalila have demonstrated. You dismiss landing hamstring -> impaleslash -> break as something improbable and yet I've had to develop counter-techniques EXPLICITLY for that scenario against @Kalila.

You say that trying to pommel impale a dragon will lead to a 'bad time'. Sir, @Kalila could use pommel impale instead of her current setup and a dragon would eat an unescapable impaleslash into leg break sequence 9 times out of 10. If I were in alchemist, she could do that and I would never build any momentum ever.

Asmodron

@Armali

You keep bringing up Mizik and Kalila to my arguments as if I am accusing them specifically of not knowing BM. My retorts are to the individuals making posts stating things such as "BM hinder is too much" and "BM needs nerfing". I have given very clear examples previously of how to easily avoid getting caught in the BM shenanigans. I admit the changes with Sanya and voidfist have made it become deadlier, but before this was never really an issue because a blademaster would have to use 3 seconds of equilibrium to throw a voidfist in, and most people would shrug it off because the momentum died. I recall certain professional Blademasters literally telling me "Voidfist is pointless" in the past, simply because they couldnt really follow through. The change with Sanya and voidfist should not merit this sudden hysteria that "BM is broken all over". If the change is too much, then tweak it back, but please for the love of us all, people need to stop this sudden hysteria of BM mechanics that suddenly now people are calling OP....

Armali said:

You say that trying to pommel impale a dragon will lead to a 'bad time'. Sir, Kalila could use pommel impale instead of her current setup and a dragon would eat an unescapable impaleslash into leg break sequence 9 times out of 10. If I were in alchemist, she could do that and I would never build any momentum ever.

You're saying a dragon allowed themselves to be built up, against a BM, to the point of pre-impaleslash and then a double leg-break sequence? Attempting to build leg wounds on a dragon is pretty damn long, and I can say that from experience with BM. Additionally, a Dragon can utilize venom an dcurse to further slow down the BM and, as I have experienced in the past, even to try and assure to thwart any 'impale sheniangans'. If a dragon allowed themselves to not only be double leg-preped but also pre-impaleslashed by a BM...that is definitely all on them.

Cooper

Asmodron, like normal, you are talking out your ass.

Armali

No @Asmodron, we're accusing YOU of not knowing Blademaster, and we're pointing out people who are much, much better at it than you are. And yes, a dragon can easily be prepped by a Blademaster before they can get their execution off, especially if the Blademaster is savvy. 

Khel

@Elowin prepped me faster than I could prep her, dragon v BM, because of good parry.

/random dragon .02

Lylith

Random isn't fun.

Void isn't fun.

If Blademaster insists on having some hybrid momentum (why?), surely it shouldn't be in the haphazard form of rolling dice. Because the best approach to having to take your chances is simply not to take your chances.

Asmodron

Lord...rather than stating the mistake was in voidfist being comboed with a slash, people are throwing up their hands saying BM is too stronk and apparently has been for ages now...


Maka please just revert the change so people stop whining.... Bm didnt even need voidfist before all this uppity childishness decided to showup.

Ahmet

Voidfist can last up to 20 seconds, if you're extending it. With or without striking combo, that's enough time to fully lock someone. Or at the very least fuck them up beyond any hope of saving themselves. Voidfist is the problem, not voidfist being combo'd with striking.

Nazihk

BM has been too strong for ages, you just never noticed because you're bad.

Taryius

It's not uncommon in a game for a very powerful strategy to come into light that has been there all this time. Right now, or in my opinion, void fist presents an excruciating problem for momentum classes. If you ever get stuck in a spot with voidfist on and paralysis you'll be stuck like that for a while, hindering your momentum and in the case of momentum classes losing any advantage you've gained.

Blademasters can essentially keep trying voidfist strategies until you get unlucky enough to hit it 6~7 times in a row and get locked. Prep classes have it a little better here, as every failed lock lets them prep a little more, but that's another topic.

I for one am completely on board for putting a cap on voidfist. If you miss a cure 3 times, the fourth is guaranteed to cure. Or have the chance lower each time they miss a cure (I believe this is how room hinder works currently?).

Also, with pommelstrike voidfists 'short' duration is completely moot. I'd also be open to removing pommelstrike extending voidfist and instead just increase voidfists intial duration. Meaning, a standardized void fist duration which would be a buff to using it alongside normal strikes/slashes but a nerf to the pommel/affliction spam.

Either way, people will argue but I think that would be reasonable and let voidfist retain it's properties..

As already stated no one wants to fight a class where their strategy is, let's hope this works and you're only real counterplay to it is either run before you get voidfisted, ala jester or hope RNG is on your side

Ryzeth

Asmodron said:

Lord...rather than stating the mistake was in voidfist being comboed with a slash, people are throwing up their hands saying BM is too stronk and apparently has been for ages now...

That's because it has been. If you saw Atalkez or Mizik play it, they wrecked people with it rather handily, and consistently. This change just made it even better. Whoever told you voidfist was pointless is about as wrong as you can get, though, given Pommel extends its duration.

Dochitha

Atalkez said:

No thanks. Locking as BM was always the more fun way to go because it's so much harder than prepping. 

No bro, the entire discussion was becos it's too easy to lock as BM cos Void chance is too high, definitely not 50% now. I tripple eat and misses 5 rows, that's total 15 eats, and it happens not just once, many times. That said, @Kalila did spend a lot of time perfecting BM locks, without afftracking.

Aegoth

not sure why a prep class needs an aff lock route anyway. Just remove a few lock afflictions from BM's tool-kit, along with void fist, and we're golden. Makarios explicitly stated that it's not meant to be an affliction class at all, so let's simply remove its ability to become one.