Quick Combat Questions

Ahmet

That's what I said

Dochitha

Aegoth said:

not sure why a prep class needs an aff lock route anyway. Just remove a few lock afflictions from BM's tool-kit, along with void fist, and we're golden. Makarios explicitly stated that it's not meant to be an affliction class at all, so let's simply remove its ability to become one.

Actually just examine void rate again cos it doesn't feel 50% now, maybe allowing the 4th eat to always go through like @Aerek suggested, or make void skip 1 herb balance, that will be fine already. I still like to see BM able to riftlock, and salvelock people applying on leg breaks, which is a counter to people with unending mana pools, OP regen and robes @Kalila .

Antonius

Neither of those require access to all lock afflictions, as far as I know.

Atalkez

Dochitha said:

Atalkez said:

No thanks. Locking as BM was always the more fun way to go because it's so much harder than prepping. 

No bro, the entire discussion was becos it's too easy to lock as BM cos Void chance is too high, definitely not 50% now. I tripple eat and misses 5 rows, that's total 15 eats, and it happens not just once, many times. That said, @Kalila did spend a lot of time perfecting BM locks, without afftracking.

That was a response to a suggestion of removing impatience completely, not me defending current status quo.

Kalila

Antonius said:

Neither of those require access to all lock afflictions, as far as I know.

It would be nice to have access through striking to voyria, selarnia, haemophilia and confusion :P

Dochitha

Kalila said:

Antonius said:

Neither of those require access to all lock afflictions, as far as I know.

It would be nice to have access through striking to voyria, selarnia, haemophilia and confusion :P

Let's do this for @Kalila .

Dochitha

This is what I was saying
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/3gwMKkL7

voidfist: 26 misses in a row, tell me I was wrong, it's 100% chance of missing eats! 
The one that went through, void faded.

Abuse it while it last.

Ahmet

Maybe if it were changed to make you miss the first herb eat, and then every second herb after that?

Dunn

Eh just change it to pit people but reskin the pit area as an endless void. 

Hail Oblivion!

Sena

Dochitha said:

This is what I was saying
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/3gwMKkL7

voidfist: 26 misses in a row, tell me I was wrong, it's 100% chance of missing eats! 
The one that went through, void faded.

Abuse it while it last.

I'm not a combatant and haven't kept up with BM updates, but my understanding is that eating a mineral while off mineral balance will always give the "no effect" message and reset mineral balance, so it looks like almost all of those were your (system's?) fault and voidfist only really activated 4 times in that log, because most of the attempts to eat didn't wait for mineral balance.

Edit: And 2 of the 26 failed minerals in that log were after voidfist ended.

Jovolo

Yeah, you're spam eating while off herb balance. I don't know if that's your system making serverside try to cure or if it's a serverside bug, but that wasn't 26 misses in a row.

Dochitha

Jovolo said:

Yeah, you're spam eating while off herb balance. I don't know if that's your system making serverside try to cure or if it's a serverside bug, but that wasn't 26 misses in a row.

Oh right, that's true. I need to fix my system.

Still doesn't change the fact that void is 100%. Any other logs to show void is fine? ... Cos none of my herb eat goes through in void... I can only cure after void faded.

I have fought in void before my dormancy, it wasn't this bad, I could still eat and manage the fight. This time, once voided, it's total shutdown, no chance of fighting back.

Mathilda

There are times when I can eat @Kalila, but only because she's level 2 or something and hugalaz is kind.

Kalila

Mathilda said:

There are times when I can eat @Kalila, but only because she's level 2 or something and hugalaz is kind.

Sometimes damage kills people, it's a terrible invention like that

Dochitha said:

Jovolo said:

Yeah, you're spam eating while off herb balance. I don't know if that's your system making serverside try to cure or if it's a serverside bug, but that wasn't 26 misses in a row.

Oh right, that's true. I need to fix my system.

Still doesn't change the fact that void is 100%. Any other logs to show void is fine? ... Cos none of my herb eat goes through in void... I can only cure after void faded.

I have fought in void before my dormancy, it wasn't this bad, I could still eat and manage the fight. This time, once voided, it's total shutdown, no chance of fighting back.

I think I sent you a message too, basically your triple eating is what got you locked.

I can't do it as easily against people who just cure normally, without well; luck.

I've never seen a single case where void is "100%", it's a bit of a gamble, it's luck based, and with the right luck, if you just stand still you're toast, and with a lack of it.. I can't manage nearly as well. Sometimes it feels more like 10%, other times you get these crazy streaks which just shut people down.

@Aerek and I were testing the other day, and he stuck voidfist, and then just paralysed me, and watched me burn 14+ magnesium. Great fun that.

The randomness goes both ways though, just as you're not quite able to know if your next cure is going to work, I have no way to tell if it actually did. Of course I can mitigate this, play the odds to my favor, do a bit of statistical analysis, but Voidfist is, at least to me, a potential for a.. delightful experience all around.

It's also because of these things I find it one of the most interesting to figure out.

Jovolo

It shows void is 100% on a sample size of 4? What do you mean it shows void is 100%?

Kenway

I'm super confused by this entire line of discussion because out of all the crazy powerful shit BM can do, voidfist locking is like, a non-issue? And a thing people do -because- they consider the other available tools too easy?

Nazihk

My gut feeling is that the RNG mechanic is going to get the axe. Straight up RNG failure is uninteresting. No matter which side of the sword you're on, all you can really do is throw cures/affs into it and hope the RNG comes down on your side.

I feel like, in the end, the RNG cure failure is inherently anti-competitive. When you survive a voidlock it was because you were lucky, not because you were good. When you kill off a voidlock it wasn't because of a skilled offense, it was because of an unlucky opponent. 

The only way I could see keeping it would be to give it a short duration and a long cooldown and keep it as an emergency hinder without real lock potential, but hindrance is one area where Blademaster really doesn't need any more help. Better to repurpose it entirely.

Armali

I don't think the RNG will go. RNG is the only thing that stops the momentum game from being perfectly deterministic. Stuff like random curing and clumsiness are inherently RNG mechanisms.

I wouldn't mind seeing some of the past buffs reversed, but the core mechanic seems alright to me. You could even take the Aetolia route with their void aff and have it be visible to the user when it procs but only last for a max of 2 consumes before it fades. Something along that line, numbers variable.

Sobriquet

Yeh, the combat balance is built around RNG, so that will never be phased out. 

Lylith

Random curing orders are one thing, but random herb failure is just a chore. Blademaster is also a setup-based class, whom, by virtue of their very design are defensive and hindering to their enemy regardless of void, so it's not the ability in its current form provides anything other than all around annoyance.

I mean, where's my limb prep on various momentum classes? The limb target reap or deadeyes?

Kalila

Is this how riots start? Can I join in? I got a pitchfork.

Borran

Void fist makes Mickey look super weak.

Nazihk

Armali said:

I don't think the RNG will go. RNG is the only thing that stops the momentum game from being perfectly deterministic. Stuff like random curing and clumsiness are inherently RNG mechanisms.

I wouldn't mind seeing some of the past buffs reversed, but the core mechanic seems alright to me. You could even take the Aetolia route with their void aff and have it be visible to the user when it procs but only last for a max of 2 consumes before it fades. Something along that line, numbers variable.

The RNG is important to keep combat from becoming perfectly deterministic, but there's a big difference between random cure orders on the various herbs and "your herbs may or may not work".

Random herb cures don't affect your cures/second rate and afflictions are carefully placed within their curing pool. Example: Paralysis is crazy powerful, so it is one of only two afflictions in the bloodroot curing pool and slickness has an alternate non-herb cure. The randomness just makes it harder to track exactly what afflictions the enemy has on them at any given time. 

Voidfist has none of that kind of consideration behind it. It's just a brute force "Does this cure fail?" check that causes an affliction logjam and that blocks all afflictions equally. If you get hit with paralysis with voidfist up you might cure it instantly or you might be paralysed for 6+ seconds at a time, and there's no potential for counterplay there via changing curing priorities or whatever. All you can do is eat and hope it works.

Random herb cures are good RNG, Voidfist is bad RNG.

Calira

I'm strongly against any change that makes Voidfist more deterministic than it currently is. The only solace that the victim of the ability has is that the attacker can't easily track it, so they don't necessarily know just how screwed over you are at any given moment. Making Voidfist hit every 2nd herb or something just buffs it so that the BM can now take perfect advantage of your misery.

Nazihk

Voidfist is a pure affliction maneuver mounted on a chassis that is explicitly intended not to be an affliction class.

I don't want to make it more deterministic, I want to change the entire concept of it to something that isn't inherently an aff-warrior skill. Similarly, I would not mind removing/replacing some of the lock afflictions to break their ability to lock on their own. 

Lylith

If they eat bloodroot and then don't attack/tree/whatever, chances are they're still paralysed, it's basic tracking. I'd say you can probably just assume most people will cure paralysis first and therefore decide it (and by extension other afflictions) are actually being cured after they eat+act. The supposed difficulty should not be a balancing point.

Farrah

Most similarly hindering things have been nerfed (see: priest old earth disrupt, which I'd say wasn't even as bad). It's mostly paralysis that's the problem, because any momentum class going against it and ending up paralysed for 6 seconds just doesn't get an offense. Mizik suggested just making it not affect paralysis, which would probably be okay.

Aegoth

or just get rid of voidfist alltogether, since BM isn't an affliction class? I mean... it's pretty cut and dry here

Ahmet

Leg damage + prone + undeaf + forced application of restoration in a single balance is silly.

That is all.

Dochitha

Farrah said:

Most similarly hindering things have been nerfed (see: priest old earth disrupt, which I'd say wasn't even as bad). It's mostly paralysis that's the problem, because any momentum class going against it and ending up paralysed for 6 seconds just doesn't get an offense. Mizik suggested just making it not affect paralysis, which would probably be okay.

Void not affecting paralysis should suffice yes. Give counter play to momentum class.