Quick Combat Questions

Farrah

Anedhel said:

Limb prep speed gives significant advantage to paladin in groups. I have no idea why no one else seemed to shoot for damnation in groups that I noticed, it's so good

Lunge is

We don't use damnation in group cause we're all S&B (when paladin).

Anedhel

Farrah said:

Anedhel said:

Limb prep speed gives significant advantage to paladin in groups. I have no idea why no one else seemed to shoot for damnation in groups that I noticed, it's so good

Lunge is

We don't use damnation in group cause we're all S&B (when paladin).

I bet you miss me some days. I like to think so, anyways. Fairly sure @Atalkez does, at least. 

Exelethril

Nazihk said:

Aerek said:

Objectively, I hold S&B to be the "best" spec. It has very solid kill setups that are difficult to avoid, is flexible in its approach, and isn't particularly weak against any opponent class. Its only real downsides are mediocre bashing and its long prep time, which you can even avoid with some of the lock-based methods. The other specs have their perks and novelties, and may outshine S&B in specific instances, but S&B's lack of serious drawbacks mean it is always good, never helpless, whatever the situation.

This might be true in 1v1, but I feel like it is decidedly not the case in group fights. I don't feel like it brings anything to a group fight that DWC doesn't already bring, and DWC has far better damage potential.

SnB's 1 leg break dsbs + bite/axekick in group combat are a-okay in my books vs not having lunge

Atalkez

Exelethril said:

Nazihk said:

Aerek said:

Objectively, I hold S&B to be the "best" spec. It has very solid kill setups that are difficult to avoid, is flexible in its approach, and isn't particularly weak against any opponent class. Its only real downsides are mediocre bashing and its long prep time, which you can even avoid with some of the lock-based methods. The other specs have their perks and novelties, and may outshine S&B in specific instances, but S&B's lack of serious drawbacks mean it is always good, never helpless, whatever the situation.

This might be true in 1v1, but I feel like it is decidedly not the case in group fights. I don't feel like it brings anything to a group fight that DWC doesn't already bring, and DWC has far better damage potential.

SnB's 1 leg break dsbs + bite/axekick in group combat are a-okay in my books vs not having lunge

Personally would rather just lock from the salve apply with dragon/monk impatience for me. Not a fan of taking 3-6.5 seconds of doing nothing to impale>dsb when I can get 6 afflictions out in that same timeframe 

Dunn

If you're a high priority target, impale is kind of scary to do. 

Aerek

So I'm finally trying to learn about these Depthswalker assholes. Hypothetically speaking, if you're in an indoor location, (Moghedu, Azdun, etc) and a Depthswalker has you Preempted...what are you supposed to do when you get into trouble? With Retribution burning down my health/mana even as a Cape-boosted Dragon, that kinda seems like a death sentence.

Cooper

If that is your circumstance, the only thing you can do is touch shield on repeat until you aren't in danger.

In reality, Depthswalker is in way, way, way too strong of a position right now and will likely receive several tweaks during classleads in January.

Frederich

... Couldn't you just pierce the veil if you're already in dragon?

Valaria

@Cooper yeah some people didn't target me during raid defense... i mean.. im a depthwalker.. i should be a target...

Calira

Aerek said:

So I'm finally trying to learn about these Depthswalker assholes. Hypothetically speaking, if you're in an indoor location, (Moghedu, Azdun, etc) and a Depthswalker has you Preempted...what are you supposed to do when you get into trouble? With Retribution burning down my health/mana even as a Cape-boosted Dragon, that kinda seems like a death sentence.

Preempt can't follow if you gallop at least 2 rooms. Mog has plenty of applicable places to make use of that

Ryzeth

Cooper said:

If that is your circumstance, the only thing you can do is touch shield on repeat until you aren't in danger.

You're gonna be touching shield until you die, in that case. If you're "in danger" then you're not going to get out of danger. Can just pierce the veil in the scenario described, they can't stop it. 

Don't think it needs huge tweaks, just the damage that it can put it after only a few rounds of hitting you (considering most of it isn't actually from the attacks, but the passive effects of the afflictions) - Groups it's devastating, but so are a multitude of other things. 1v1 it's definitely not insurmountable.

eta: Except 2h/dwb. GL then, lol.

Dunn

I don't find DW to be overly strong, really. People cure like shit against it so it does look pretty nuts. A few major tweaks have already occurred, though (see: Degen damage, preempt cooldown on target).

You can dash away from preempt and it doesn't follow.

Ryzeth

Dunn said:

I don't find DW to be overly strong, really. People cure like shit against it so it does look pretty nuts. A few major tweaks have already occurred, though (see: Degen damage, preempt cooldown on target).

You can dash away from preempt and it doesn't follow.

Now let's make it so depression tick-damage pauses if the one who applied it is in the middle of channeling Doom.

Dunn

As long as they die I really don't care how

Driden

Aerek said:

So I'm finally trying to learn about these Depthswalker assholes. Hypothetically speaking, if you're in an indoor location, (Moghedu, Azdun, etc) and a Depthswalker has you Preempted...what are you supposed to do when you get into trouble? With Retribution burning down my health/mana even as a Cape-boosted Dragon, that kinda seems like a death sentence.

So like your biggest mistake you were doing was hitting me as dragon while afflicted with justice on top of sipping mana while retribution was up. That's a lot of self inflicted health pressure not even counting my passive damage while I Waco you with my scythe. Flying won't save most people if I do my stuff right. I have all the fly lines attached to my aliases so I fly and land with you. Slows me down but if I don't mess up your not getting away. What I did as a serpent is stick asthma slickness/curare to break there chase. But that's serpent. 

Ryzeth

I wonder if boosted doom kills the DW, if the person dies to damage before it finishes channeling...

Driden

I think the idea way to cure and play defensively against dw is identify what there trying to do. Which is fairly simple if you pay attention to the instill lines. But I'm still pretty novice so I don't know. 

Aerek

Dunn said:

I don't find DW to be overly strong, really. People cure like shit against it so it does look pretty nuts. A few major tweaks have already occurred, though (see: Degen damage, preempt cooldown on target). 

I wouldn't claim that DW is too strong, overall, but Preempt still does feel over-the-top. Off-balance auto-follow is pretty impressive by itself, but ignoring walls, rubble, Hamstring/Pinshot, Piety/etc? And while it won't change elevations, apparently it still tracks me as I move at a different elevation? That's a bit much.

I have Dash in my arsenal, so I can use that, but for everyone else, if the only option to beat Preempt is 1736 lessons and 250cr to learn Riding and buy a Collared mount, that seems like a pretty obvious indication that this ability is too strong. They already have a Piety analogue that gets better as they age if they choose that route, so why does Preempt need to be as good as it is, on top of that?

What are the durations of Preempt unBoosted/Boosted, and what's the balance time on their Shield-breaker? (Shielding has not earned me breathing room in my experience so far.)

Driden said:

So like your biggest mistake you were doing was hitting me as dragon while afflicted with justice on top of sipping mana while retribution was up.

If you're looping paralysis/justice on a 2s balance, I will always have one of those, which means if I don't attack you while I have justice, I will never attack you.

Shirszae

@Aerek it gets worse as they age, not better. The more age you have, the less likely  Distortion is to work.

Ahmet

Ryzeth said:

I wonder if boosted doom kills the DW, if the person dies to damage before it finishes channeling...

It does not.

Aegoth

@Aerek: preempt doesn't follow at different elevations

Driden

Aegoth said:

@Aerek: preempt doesn't follow at different elevations

It does buddy trust me to me rof owners dismay they don't get away from me. 

Aerek

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/Wf7k24nH

I fly and run, he follows twice while still on the ground. He flies up, I land and run, he follows twice while still in the air. Definitely follows at different elevations. I did survive after that log, but only because Preempt must have dropped right about then; he stopped following after that.

I'll see how Dash plays out, but that still feels like survival is pretty dependent on geography, not any skill or tactics of mine, and a good DW could still catch you before you get balance back from Dash. Still seems to me that you can barely escape DW when you -can- fly. If you can't fly, or are indoors, I kinda don't know how you're supposed to survive these folks once they gain the advantage.

I'm sure there's tips and tricks on "curing better", but a lot of the tactics I've seen so far haven't exactly been complex, mostly just paralysis/Degen for damage and paralysis/Retribution for burning down health and mana fast enough that Priests are creaming themselves with jealous lust.

Sobriquet

Does their auto follow respect runes?

Armali

Uh, isn't dash instant, or am I thinking about a different game...?

Antonius

Dash is instant but procs movement balance if you dash more than a few rooms, so you can't move another direction immediately in most cases.

Armali

Right, but you could always do stuff like dash-icewall, dash fly, dash shield, etc. If you can break out of the room, there's a lot you can do to make successful chase difficult.

Aerek

Yes, if you are one of the 3 classes that can Dash/Runaway, or pay 550cr for Riding+Collar+Mount, and assuming you are in a geographic location that has a suitable stretch of rooms, you can chain Dash/Gallop with walls, fly, set traps, or the like to make it slightly-to-moderately difficult to keep pace with you. If you are not one of those 3 classes and don't have 550cr to spend on an auxiliary skill, do you just not fight Depthswalkers?

As with a lot of balance concerns, I think it's a matter of relative difficulty between both parties. I think it takes a lot more investment, effort, and planning on the victim's part to escape than it takes the Depthswalker to Boost Preempt and make liberal use of GOTOP.

Antonius

Sobriquet said:

Does their auto follow respect runes?

They'll hit totems and ground runes when following through pre-empt, and entanglements are one of the things that prevent pre-empt from following regular movement, so Runewarden can put down wunjo/nairat and then move out, back into runes, then out again to get away while they're transfixed. Or just move through a room that already has runes in it after enemying them, if you've prepared it ahead of time.

Nazihk

Dashing also assumes you either have the shackle or aren't massed for other reasons.