This war

Kiet

Plenty of targs were awake, because he was on much longer than usual that day. He doesn't match Farrah/Atalkez playtime, sure, but you claimed that if other people offer the duels will come easier, which they don't necessarily. Everyone can always find a reason to not duel (us included).

Mathilda

Ya I will almost 100% refuse a duel* because I am #scrublyf, plus Targossas can't afford to gamble on duels like Mhaldor can. 

edit: a war duel. I've been doing a fair number of non-war duels lately, though, with people like Lylith and Bors and stuff. Trueparry OP, nerfstick pls. (jk there's probably a way around it)

Kiet

Also you can't really complain about dodging sanctions when frederich proudly evacuated vs 3 people, lol.

Farrah

Both sides complain about dodging sanctions. It's a circular argument that won't go anywhere.

There's been some good commentary and feedback here though, so that's good. I'd definitely do the terms differently if I had to do it again. The sanction mechanic isn't the best for war.

I don't think the war duel limit being mentioned would change what people are doing. We did limit it to one per month for those reasons, but everyone seems to already be aiming to fight people at their "strength" because that's the only way to get a fight. The duels so far have been as fair as you can reasonably expect, and people who play when no duelists in another faction are around are always going to have a harder time.

Kythra

I just want to fight someone. But people are like, "Only Atalkez or Farrah should fight you so I dont make us lose points." 
Bruh. I'm worst Depthswalker NA. You'll probably get favored for beating me. Instead I have to loiter at Cyrene arena as DW and try to shoot for spars and duels >:(

Kiet

Yeah, both sides do do it. It'd be throwing the race to not do it sometimes.

What the duel limit would do, though, is make it so that eventually we run out of proficies/atalkezes, and then our midbies have to start dueling (or duels just stop entirely, I guess, but we could force like 1 duel every 3 days or something).

Farrah

@Kythra How do they know you're going to duel as DW and not serpent? You're definitely not a midtier as serpent! I don't know how you are as DW.

Otherwise, I don't know who you asked, so I can't comment.

@Kiet I get the theory. I'm just saying it won't really change much in practice. If people aren't willing to duel, duels will just stop. There's no reason for them to be more willing to duel under that system. I already can't win more than 4 points for Targ because who is going to duel me? I've done one so far. One. I encourage others to duel for points when it's a good fight because I can't since a person who is willing to fight, say, Avianca, isn't necessarily willing to fight me.

The incentives already exist for that reason. The problem is just that some people aren't duelists, period, and aren't going to duel just to throw away points.

And you can't force a duel, because there's no way to determine who will fight other than people agreeing. If no one agrees to fight, who is forced to duel?

Aegoth

The main problem is the midbie fear of costing their org a valuable point. Makes them feel shitty if they lose, for any side. Just ask @Verquisse

Atalkez

I lost to a shitty midtier Magi last night, felt horrible.

Sry @Farrah

Farrah

I mean, that goes back to the whole problem of opt-in mechanics with high stakes, in general.

Mathilda

I'm not able to get some midtier duels, myself, because people see Level 107 and automatically assume artifacts!!! or hightier!!! Teehee, people, I'm just a girl with a forged bastard sword. 

Kythra

@Farrah I tell them I'm not serpent, but yeah it's mostly the fear of losing points and thinking they'll be yelled at. Which is kind of happening on both sides? I'm not gonna go ask Fred to duel, but I try to ask Oathsworn, Legionnaire? I can't remember all the titles. For the most part they tell me I'd find a challenge in you or Atalkez, and we fight all the time and I'd go serpent if I wanted to duel you two. 

Now we have rumors of shit going on over there for permissions to do duels. And now we have rules over here and it isn't fun. The raids are draining and I'll probably find more fun in the Naval battles, to be honest.

Plus half of Targ saw my crappy DW lock attempts against Hank as I got 2-0'd. u.u

Torinn

I too am looking forward to the naval battles. 

Prythe

Serin said:

That makes non combative's have no home.  That really sucks.

Hang out in Cyrene. We have cookies and chocolate.

Nazihk

The big problem with war terms like this is that we want things that are objective and measurable, but which also require player involvement from both sides. So no shrines due to offhours shrine raising/defiling, no points for guard bashing, etc.

The thing about terms like that is that it also makes it extremely rewarding for people to duck fights, especially once you've gotten a lead. And the problem with a points game in particular is that once you're up by enough points there's no reason to play aggressively. If it weren't for the naval/nish battles the smartest thing for Mhaldor to do would be to just not engage again. You could go so far as to kick a ton of people out of the army to deny us targets of opportunity for sanctions. As long as they didn't fuck that up too badly, they'd win and we couldn't do anything about it because we can only gain points if they choose to allow us the opportunity. Turtling is too tactically viable in this war system because turtling isn't fun for anybody. 

Aegoth said:

The main problem is the midbie fear of costing their org a valuable point. Makes them feel shitty if they lose, for any side. Just ask Verquisse

I also think that part of the problem is that duels are worth too much, compared to other things. I mean, if three of our scrub-tier duelists lose three duels today they basically just gave you a free L1 tank, and sanction denial tactics are so effective in this war that those losses would be a huge deficit for us to have to make up.

This makes me very disinclined to get involved in that system. I have always been a quarter-assed scrub tier duelist, and I'm not willing to give up a third of a tank to somebody like Aegoth or Reyson just for shits and grins.

Xaden

@kythra you've never askeded me

I've promised Raisin a duel once i get a couple Infernal spars under my belt cos I have literally fought a dwc infernal once in my 18months of PK

also have a 2v2 arranged for tomorrow with AlReyson. 

I'm not gonna throw away points but I also want to be involved, so I'll do what i can, when i can

Nazihk

Daeir said:

What bothers me slightly is the comparatively immense things at stake for losing. Not being able to preach or proselytize for 5 IRL MONTHS and subsequently being forced to endure the same from your sworn enemies is pretty huge.

25 hours to the IG month, 12 months to the IG year. 25*12 = 300 hours per IG year, 300/24 = 12.5 RL days per IC year. So 125 RL days for 10 IG years. So it's only about 4 months and change.

But yeah, I do feel like this is a bit too much for a punishment on a war with such crappy terms. Making anybody listen to the Harbingers for that long is just flat out fucking wrong. I mean, we're not supposed to be the evil ones here.

Kiet

@Daeir for once, I will agree with your australian self. The conditions for losing are huge, but they only punish precisely the people who do things other than PK. If all I care about is fighting, winning or losing the war literally has no effect on me beyond the street cred, as you said.

Zelisia

I don't know, I imagine whichever side loses could still do a lot to try to bring the preachers into their way of thinking. You can also subtly subvert any preaching with other things. Lots of cool rp could result if we are all willing to roll with it rather than putting in a hard stop. Interpretation is 9/10ths of the law.

Farrah

Daeir said:

I said this when the terms were proposed originally to at least some of the people organizing them - there's a distinct reason why terms haven't been attempted properly before in the past ten years or whatever of Achaea's history.

Now you know why.

It's also pretty shitty to attempt to refute criticism with "I don't see you doing anything to help" when the criticism is precisely that - an attempt to help. If you can't split the fact that something you worked on might have issues that need revision, you probably shouldn't be in the position to work on them in the first place. Just throwing that out there, not targeted at anyone in particular. People are far too willing to fob off legitimate criticism as "complaining" these days.

You're an unconstructive eternal pessimist, Daeir. Terms were never attempted before because no one put in the effort to make them happen. As many have said, it's bound not to be perfect the first try but we already have ideas to improve it next time. That's a success, not a failure.

Your criticism was literally "this can't work because no one has ever tried it before." That is not helpful at all.

This is absolutely targeted at me, so I'll simply say the fact of the matter is, if I wasn't doing things, you'd be right there complaining that nothing ever happens. Let's be real.

Aegoth

IDK why people expected this to be perfect on the first try. We're human, mistakes were going to happen, loopholes found, errors discovered. That's why we work together to try and fix things. Farrah's been doing her part, as well as Atalkez, Nyd, me, etc. We each have our own biases as well, lending to differing perspectives on what should be. Neutral Divine didn't create these terms, players from opposing factions did, and in spite of the glaring errors (which are 90% mechanical), good effort has been done. That's what matters in the end. Because some people took the initiative to try this, something BETTER can be hammered out in the future. So let's just ride the 5 tank waves for now, and come back to the drawing board after the war is finished

Farrah

By the time we get to the Cyrene v Hashan war, it'll be perfect.

Nazihk

I posted this in Morthif's thread about changing the war, so I'll just repost it here:

Nazihk said:

Honestly, at this point I'd sort of like to just scrub this entire war. We're like 4-5 days into a war that's supposed to last 24 days, and nobody is liking it anymore because the end result of these war terms is that they decrease the amount of enjoyable conflict in the game.

Instead of trying a defense because "fuck it, the worst that happens is they tank us once", we're in a position where the smart play is to abandon the city. And on the other side of that it's no longer a matter of "So what if we get wiped, all that happens is that we're down a tank", disarms giving points mean that nobody is willing to risk an uncertain tank. Instead of lots of people getting engaged and active in duels, we're in a position where very few people are willing to do that due to the penalties. I feel like we'd honestly be having more fun without  the war because we'd be more willing to raid and defend and actually engage the enemy.

I would be happy calling this war a failed experiment, letting Mhaldor take some ceremonial executions for their current lead, and then going back to the drawing board armed with our experiences from this war. 

Krypton

Farrah said:

By the time we get to the Cyrene v Hashan war, it'll be perfect.

I don't want a Cupcake Wars in achaea, no thank you.

Torinn

@Nazihk I don't get why you dislike the Harbingers so much.  You wanna PK only in this game?  Fine do your thing, stop complaining about those of us who enjoy the RP side of Achaea as well.  As a matter of fact, I don't think you have -ever- come to a single prayer, event, or sermon in the past several months so pretending like it is torture is inane.  You're not even there.  Your dislike of that sort of thing, while in a city that is centered around faith, is really starting to bug me whether you're being sarcastic or not.

Nyderrasethi

Honestly the fact we came together and talked about things already on multiple occasions means we're trying guys. The war was never going to be perfect so to criticize us for trying is not going to help things. I might have a good idea for later wars and the war system in general but I can't fix it now so we must live with what we got.

Frederich

Stilll can't get sanction, with less people than you lot, because all ya'll sitting in drake gloom etc hunkering down and mind radiancing from safety etc.

This is why we can't have nice things.  Proficy is there too.

The Golden Dragon Melodie's imposing form looms. Dread Duelist Verquisse is here. His features are obscured by a protective cloth mask. He wields a simple lightweight cavalry shield in his left hand. Dread Enforcer Exxia Lichlord is here. His face is partially concealed beneath the raised hood of a knights cloak of stygian wool. He wields a Scimitar of Eagles in each hand. Ailea Lichlord, Iniquitous Mind is here. Her features are obscured by a mask of lifevision. Sir Titonus Lichlord is here. He wields a blackened, Mhaldorian scimitar in his left hand. Purifier Kiet Aristata al-Azhan

Draqoom

Farrah said:

By the time we get to the Cyrene v Hashan war, it'll be perfect.

Already drafting up the conditions now.

Atalkez

Draqoom said:

Farrah said:

By the time we get to the Cyrene v Hashan war, it'll be perfect.

Already drafting up the conditions now.

So they'll be ready in 2020?

Frederich

Also

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/gMVl-3_N

Why are so many constables coming to a CFH.

No other city is like that, and I'm straight up about to call bug abuse.  @Makarios / @Nicola