This war

Torinn

I've been waiting for someone to ask me for a duel but nobody has. Why does it always have to be us initiating?    Also yes it was supposed to be chaotic with lots of fighting but lately it's been nothing but people avoiding it to either avoid points or to prevent an even bigger lead. It is Friday today so we may get a lot more action as people get going on their weekends.

Atalkez

I like the flag idea, but that would require some admin involvement, which probably won't happen at this point in the war.

Maybe for next time.

Serin

Torinn said:

I've been waiting for someone to ask me for a duel but nobody has. Why does it always have to be us initiating?    Also yes it was supposed to be chaotic with lots of fighting but lately it's been nothing but people avoiding it to either avoid points or to prevent an even bigger lead. It is Friday today so we may get a lot more action as people get going on their weekends.

And for me that means either stay off the game or stay away from my city and both options suck.  I want to help my city and be included, but that means that i'll be constantly attacked because they know I cannot defend myself yet.  I feel like this war is setup for the top 1% of Achaea and everyone else is hanging on trying to play through the spam of combat.

Khel

Atalkez said:

I like the flag idea, but that would require some admin involvement, which probably won't happen at this point in the war.

Maybe for next time.

Yeah that's the idea. I'm sort of hijacking @Serin's thread but it addresses his issues in a...roundabout way. Encourage people not needing a sanction, means they don't chase you to clouds and force you into a portal, etc

Nyderrasethi

The issue with us not changing terms was beaten to death last night in our conversation. The reason this war is having issues is that there is 0 profit from defending unless they drop a tank. Which they will not do unless they are very certain of it detonating. Last night they essentially had people chasing us around not letting us group up so we decided to scatter those that could not defend themselves and only leave 4-5 in the city to harass the attackers and it worked to perfection. You still had a chance to get a sanction you just failed, it happens move on

Tesha

Nyderrasethi said:

The reason this war is having issues is that there is 0 profit from defending unless they drop a tank. Which they will not do unless they are very certain of it detonating.

AHEMMMMMMMMMM I dropped a tank when we were unsure we could detonate it and it was a close fight (don't tell Farrah she hasn't yelled at me about it so i don't think she knows yet).

Frederich

You all ran to the same ship.  Pretty should you had enough time to 'gather your forces and group up'...

Also man.  Those 10-15 constables coming to a CFH is some bullshit i tell you hwat.

@Serin if you don't wanna get forced to follow to contribute to a sanction, go somewhere not main-continent.  Go up north to hunt, islands, meropis, etc.  We're not gonna try to make you force-follow all the way there.

Serin

Frederich said:

You all ran to the same ship.  Pretty should you had enough time to 'gather your forces and group up'...

Also man.  Those 10-15 constables coming to a CFH is some bullshit i tell you hwat.

@Serin if you don't wanna get forced to follow to contribute to a sanction, go somewhere not main-continent.  Go up north to hunt, islands, meropis, etc.  We're not gonna try to make you force-follow all the way there.

So don't play the game the way I want to, play the game the way I am forced to or else die?  Also, it's been so long I don't remember how to get off plane to anywhere anymore.  I was attempting a demon refuge when you killed me.

Micaelis

War is great for the PKers and hell for most other people. Just try to keep a clear mind about how serious all of it really is. You died twice, so how big of a loss is that really? I know the circumstances behind it are pretty annoying, and that's likely what's grinding your gears in the first place, but just remember that it's a war and crap happens. 

Achaeans are prone to taking everything way too far/too seriously. If you're a Mhaldorian you probably think all Targossians are ganking you 500 versus 1, dueling novices, raping children, etc, and you can reverse that if you're Targossian. Just keep your chin up and try to remember that most of the people who are killing you are virgins, that's how I sleep at night ^.^.

Antonius

Micaelis said:

War is great for the PKers and hell for most other people. Just try to keep a clear mind about how serious all of it really is. You died twice, so how big of a loss is that really? I know the circumstances behind it are pretty annoying, and that's likely what's grinding your gears in the first place, but just remember that it's a war and crap happens. 

Achaeans are prone to taking everything way too far/too seriously. If you're a Mhaldorian you probably think all Targossians are ganking you 500 versus 1, dueling novices, raping children, etc, and you can reverse that if you're Targossian. Just keep your chin up and try to remember that most of the people who are killing you are virgins, that's how I sleep at night ^.^.

You have like ten kids, I don't believe you sleep at night.

Torinn

Serin said:

Frederich said:

You all ran to the same ship.  Pretty should you had enough time to 'gather your forces and group up'...

Also man.  Those 10-15 constables coming to a CFH is some bullshit i tell you hwat.

@Serin if you don't wanna get forced to follow to contribute to a sanction, go somewhere not main-continent.  Go up north to hunt, islands, meropis, etc.  We're not gonna try to make you force-follow all the way there.

So don't play the game the way I want to, play the game the way I am forced to or else die?  Also, it's been so long I don't remember how to get off plane to anywhere anymore.  I was attempting a demon refuge when you killed me.

Well, this is a game with other people.doing their own things. You can't always play the way you want to. We are giving you options to do while this war is ongoing.  We aren't just going to drop the war and the terms are laid out for all on both sides to see so...

Serin

Micaelis said:

War is great for the PKers and hell for most other people. Just try to keep a clear mind about how serious all of it really is. You died twice, so how big of a loss is that really? I know the circumstances behind it are pretty annoying, and that's likely what's grinding your gears in the first place, but just remember that it's a war and crap happens. 

Achaeans are prone to taking everything way too far/too seriously. If you're a Mhaldorian you probably think all Targossians are ganking you 500 versus 1, dueling novices, raping children, etc, and you can reverse that if you're Targossian. Just keep your chin up and try to remember that most of the people who are killing you are virgins, that's how I sleep at night ^.^.

lol @ the last sentence.

The issue is I've spent a good bit of money in the game and wanted to start playing again.  Invested more money and everything was great.  But with this war it makes the game almost unplayable from an RP role.  Is Serin supposed to be the coward Mhaldorian that flees every fight, or the one that Mhaldor has to hide away so the enemy doesn't get an easy kill.  It's like a no win scenario and all I want to do is bash some Mhuns! 

Atalkez

Fun > RP.

Don't get too hung up on 'but muh RP' if it's literally causing you angst to play the game that way. That's craziness.

Hunt your Mhuns, ignore them when they said raiders are in unless you're ready to fight for basically the rest of the night.

This is actually an extremely tame war in comparison to what it could be, thankfully!

Serin

Torinn said:

Serin said:

Frederich said:

You all ran to the same ship.  Pretty should you had enough time to 'gather your forces and group up'...

Also man.  Those 10-15 constables coming to a CFH is some bullshit i tell you hwat.

@Serin if you don't wanna get forced to follow to contribute to a sanction, go somewhere not main-continent.  Go up north to hunt, islands, meropis, etc.  We're not gonna try to make you force-follow all the way there.

So don't play the game the way I want to, play the game the way I am forced to or else die?  Also, it's been so long I don't remember how to get off plane to anywhere anymore.  I was attempting a demon refuge when you killed me.

Well, this is a game with other people.doing their own things. You can't always play the way you want to. We are giving you options to do while this war is ongoing.  We aren't just going to drop the war and the terms are laid out for all on both sides to see so...

Yes and there were always rules set up to make sure that it was still an enjoyable game.  I feel like the war has made the rules useless if you are apart of the two cities that war.  Also I'm not asking for the war to end I'm just venting my frustrations with it.  

And what does the winner get anyway?  All i saw was some agreement that we can spread evil everywhere if we win or something.  I doubt something like that would be honored.  

Ailea

I am sorry but this war lacks a lot of creativity in terms of the points and the ways in which one may achieve "victory" or a success in battle. While I get that the restrictions were in place to assist. However, they also did not look at different sides on wars such as actually gaining soverentiy or other denizen villages through deception (or divine shrine sovereginty). We really could have had some fun with invading and trying to take over terrorities and allied areas that each city had. 

Furthermore, we also could have looked at other creative sides that actually gave those who are not as combatively focused to actually have fun and participate with. Such as public debates or other acts similar. 

This war is really geared just for those that honestly likes to PK, so really if you do not like PK or really are not into it as much, it becomes boring and tedious after so long. 

Melodie

Fred man, between forums, discord and IC, you got enough salt to make all of the farmlands of Achaea barren. Chill.

Tahquil

You logged in at a bad time. It happens. Boo Hoo.

You've been given quite a few pieces of good advice that you've tossed off you high chair squalling that 'That's not how I want to play!'. Okay. I begrudgingly nod my head that it sucks when you can't play how you want to play. Let's find something you want to do which seems like it boils down to logging in in Mhaldor and help your city. Inside of kicking your chubby little feet how about you take this opportunity to interact with your city mates? Talk to them, ask them for help in finding your feet again, see what you can do to help the soldiers who are fighting. Hell, right now most of your citymates would probably love the chance to kick back and help someone, even if it meant dragging them into the arena and teaching them how to defend themselves against the nefarious Targossian underhanded strategies.

As a non-com, in Mhaldor, right now, there are assuredly loads of things you can do to help if you talk to people. Even if it is to become a little less non-commy. And if that fails, someone(@Nyderrasethi I believe) already posted in this thread about a way out of the army which would excuse you from all this 'I'm going to quit boo hoo you ruined my good shirt' angst.

Dochitha

Serin said:

That makes non combative's havve no home.  That really sucks.

There's a home called Cyrene. You do not belong to Mhaldor. 

Krypton

HELP IC RESOLUTION said:

Achaea is a real and living world. Stuff happens. We do not grant you a

permanent, perfect entitlement to freedom from worry, from fear of harm,

from any inconvenience, from theft, etc.

Emphasis on STUFF HAPPENS. Try to make the best of it. Again, it has already been very clearly delineated as only a temporary event!

Serin

Tahquil said:

You logged in at a bad time. It happens. Boo Hoo.

You've been given quite a few pieces of good advice that you've tossed off you high chair squalling that 'That's not how I want to play!'. Okay. I begrudgingly nod my head that it sucks when you can't play how you want to play. Let's find something you want to do which seems like it boils down to logging in in Mhaldor and help your city. Inside of kicking your chubby little feet how about you take this opportunity to interact with your city mates? Talk to them, ask them for help in finding your feet again, see what you can do to help the soldiers who are fighting. Hell, right now most of your citymates would probably love the chance to kick back and help someone, even if it meant dragging them into the arena and teaching them how to defend themselves against the nefarious Targossian underhanded strategies.

As a non-com, in Mhaldor, right now, there are assuredly loads of things you can do to help if you talk to people. Even if it is to become a little less non-commy. And if that fails, someone(@Nyderrasethi I believe) already posted in this thread about a way out of the army which would excuse you from all this 'I'm going to quit boo hoo you ruined my good shirt' angst.

Ah there is always one on a forum that wants to attack.

I am taking the advice from inside this thread.  And pivoting this thread into a discussion about the war and the rules right now.  

In game I have been speaking to citymates and housemates and being inducted into clans to help with PvP.  My issue was with a specific situation about being killed, then hunted down again and killed and how I felt that is an unfair thing in the war.  

Nyderrasethi offered a solution towards my punishment IG but not to let me leave the army so that point is moot.

Ryzan

Bro you need to chill out. You're taking this waaaaaay too seriously.

Atalkez

Ailea said:

I am sorry but this war lacks a lot of creativity in terms of the points and the ways in which one may achieve "victory" or a success in battle. While I get that the restrictions were in place to assist. However, they also did not look at different sides on wars such as actually gaining soverentiy or other denizen villages through deception (or divine shrine sovereginty). We really could have had some fun with invading and trying to take over terrorities and allied areas that each city had. 

Furthermore, we also could have looked at other creative sides that actually gave those who are not as combatively focused to actually have fun and participate with. Such as public debates or other acts similar. 

This war is really geared just for those that honestly likes to PK, so really if you do not like PK or really are not into it as much, it becomes boring and tedious after so long. 

Actually, that was thought about and discussed, we chose not to include that because we didn't want things being settled by bashers defiling shrines at 9am when everyone who can reasonably defend is at work.

That said, it's fine to critique and offer suggestions, but I didn't see anyone else doing anything to make it happen. The same way admins get tired of us bitching about an event, players will too. Farrah out in a lot of work to get us this far, so stop shitting on her efforts. Is it perfect? Absolutely no, but it's better than letting Proficy gank random people he has no business even fighting for an entire month. No one wants that.

Serin

Maybe I am true.  But I get so little time these days to relax and play a game and the war has really frustrated me with it.  That's why I created the thread, to talk about it and get solutions.  Just because I am still talking about how I dislike the war doesn't mean I'm not going to take the advice I have been given.

I now know not to quit inside Mhaldor so I am not automatically considered part of a raid
I can hang out in Cyrene if needed, thanks for that guys!

My only issue was with the fact that I've been back for such a short period of time and what's going on right now is ruining my experience.  I'm not mad, I'm simply frustrated about a game that I like to play.

Torinn

@Ailea I fully agree. I tried hard to have other things worth progress toward victory but in each case we kept running into a wall of "there is no way we can accurately keep track".  We had to decide on things that were objective and verifiable by both sides and right now, at least, that list is really small.  Shrine warfare wasn't looking good as that is more abusable in off-hours than practically anything else.  Nobody wanted to spend crazy amounts of time to hunt essence, reraise, hunt essence, and defile.  I don't blame them though it would have given youngsters a better way to contribute.

Ankhareoutef

Is amazing and provoking a lot of activity, so thanks @Farrah (and whomever else)

Farrah

Khel said:

There's no incentive to allow sanction. We didn't really have the crew to do much last night, we got crushed when you dove us on sewer totem even. We had like 2 people who knew what they were doing and me, idk about the rest but a lot were in and out or afking. So I count as like -1 people. (Edited for clarity)

Targ supposedly only been sending their best out to duel, too. And I know in the raid I did, they were trying to do the same thing we did last night, we just managed to land the sanction.

I'm not sure what kind of rule would be needed, but I think relying on sanction (which is opt in) is a little unfortunate. So is duels, which are also opt in.

Spitballing some: for war, an item that works like a tank but it's a flag you plant without sanction. Hold the flag for 45 min, get a note in your log/their log about it. Flag disappears for an IG day so you can't spam it. If you get your flag uprooted, also goes away for an IG day and gives theirs back.

I think duels are cool but there isn't a tiered system at all. So either you let your garbage fight and bleed points or you send your best out. Imo cap duel points someone can earn. If you play safe you get 4 from your 2 best, if you risk some lowbies you get more maybe. And if they go for the 100% win on your lowbies with a good fighter, they lose out on that fighter for bigger fights. It'd at least encourage even match ups to 'save' better fighters for better challengers.

Honestly, there have been a lot of myths about the duels. I'm genuinely curious which fights people believe have been unfair. Atalkez and I only fought Medi, Proficy, and Aegoth. Those are fair matchups. Tesha fought Medi and Llesvelt, and while some people are claiming the Llesvelt one was unfair, he beat her in a later duel (that wasn't a war duel) and during the war duel I was highly concerned Tesha was going to lose. She's Magi and doesn't even have any non-retardation offense setup.

Then there was Jors v Verquisse, which I considered a midtier duel. Avianca duelled a lot of people, one being Aegoth, who beat her.

Mhaldor is apparently telling its midtiers they can't duel. Targossas has no such rule. Our midtiers have refused duels with people like Aegoth and Proficy. That is expected!

Ankhareoutef

Yea I've only been asked by Medi and lol who do you think I am. I'm just an artie-whore who likes group combat

Tahquil

I'm just cranky because nearly every post you've placed in this thread include this sucks, that sucks, both options sucks, everything sucks, my experience is ruined off of one unlucky log in and what am I suppose to do? Not log in? It's all so dramatic you may make a frail lass swoon onto the sideboard.

Unfortunately due to the rapidness of this thread there was 7 whole extra posts while I was typing my previous one, But I feel I would post the same but maybe a fraction less snark. As Atalkez said, don't get hung up on shit. Take the shit that's hanging you up, flip it off and flip it over. Sometimes it's the shit that doesn't go to plans that produce the more interesting story arcs. Find new ways to deal with the unexpected downfalls and you'll be thinking in new directions. Or you can just throw up your hands and declare total suckage of all the things.

When life gives you lemons, are you going to be the guy that makes lemonade? Or are you the guy who's going to think outside the box and burn life's house down with combustible lemons that you had your engineers create?

Edit: I am interested in how all this war framework will turn out in the end. You never know, this might be the seed for a future functional war system (after a few generations of refining).

Kiet

Atalkez said:

Like Farrah said, we offered to change that rule but Mhaldor chose not to accept.

Khel, I'd be down for that, but that's a lot of tracking/upkeep for someone to do. Put people into tiers? Which tier can you fight? Penalties for fighting it if your tier? Etc.

The incentive to giving up sanction are the disarm points, but the last 3 nights we've raided with equitable groups against your actual leaders, but they still dodge instead of fight.

We've engaged you every time we had remotely equitable numbers. The 4 people you were chasing in the sewers was about all we had for actual raid-ready defenders. The rest were people like Serin, people doing OOC work at the time while just chatting, and a couple of midbies that get lost very easily. The rules don't encourage suicide defences, so there's no reason to try and defend with less numbers and a lot less escrow. Regardless, those four of us could've just ditched entirely, and we didn't, vOv.

Like Khel said, there's an issue with opt-in mechanics, but more than that there's an issue of the opt-in mechanics discouraging opting in. Say we take risky fights and beat you up three times. You can still keep coming back until you land a lucky sanction, and if we're having close fights or pyrrhic victories, that means it's unlikely to disarm that tank if you hole up without relying on font stacks or guards. Since we're playing for points, why risk it, 'game theory'-wise?

As it is now, there's not even an incentive to defend unless they already have the sanction. This came up the first day when we wiped your group a couple of times, but since you didn't tank it was an entirely worthless affair as far as winning the war went. What exactly is the point of defending if there's no tank, then?

This also relates to how sanctions work, of course. We can keep wiping you over and over, but that doesn't reset the sanction count, not make future sanctions less likely.

I'm not really sure what the solution would be, though. Like you said, most of us didn't give any ideas (I was barely around when you guys were planning this). If it were something like 'if 70% of the offensive group dies, the defenders win', that'd encourage defences, but it'd also be easily abused and encourage lop-sided fights even more, most likely.

Obviously having some system is preferable to the mess that normal wars are, and it's still a lot of good work that went into the rules/terms. There's just bound to be hiccups the first time we attempt this.


@Serin Just don't qq in Mhaldor and avoid the city until the war is over. No one's gonna judge you for it, it's a bigger deal in your head than it is in reality.

Frederich

We have people like Aegoth / Proficy asking Mithrik (who is very new/midtier) and doesn't even have a proper offense set up... for war duels.  We have Aegoth / Proficy demanding duels with p. much everyone.

However whenever the shoe goes on the other foot (which it hasn't even remotely yet), ya'll flip your shit.  Torinn & Atalkez were supposed to have a war duel with Aegoth & Nyd.. but Aegoth and Nyd refused the duel.

Atalkez asked for a war duel with Nyd alone.  Nyd refused.

It's really not a case of "BUT UR TOP COMBATANTS ARE ONLY FIGHTING OUR SHITTIERS" (which is a shitty thing to say to Llesvelt, etc btw).  It's just they asked for a war duel, and got accepted.

You're asking unreasonable odds to duel X person, and when you get told no you spew shit like " Proficy tells you, "//You know the higher powers are watching and are going to name & shame people that decline duels right?""

If there was a term added that the MoW and CL can't decline a duel, sure.  That'd be great infact.  However, no one has challenged Torinn, or some of the other better 1v1ers that aren't like.. Fucking Proficy or Aegoth trying to get some EZPZ war points.

And before you say "u cant say shit fred, u dont wanna duel me", I don't 1v1.

I have offered many 2v2s.  They have all been declined.  The only time I declined a 2v2 was when it was Aegoth/Nyd trying to 2v2 duel me and Torinn (which is a hillariously bad matchup, so I declined)