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IdelisaIdelisa Posts: 385Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
edited December 2012 in North of Thera
Here are some new railroad tracks for the conversation that started in another thread.  My alt's in Cyrene so it's interesting to hear this discussion and I hope it continues.  

Here is the summary thus far:

I'm sorry you feel that way. - @Melodie
They have cake-gasms and no sense of community. - @Kyrra
No, there totally is community, but military scene is now lacking. - @Exelethril
Cyrene's just fine, you can't sit at CC and truly enjoy the city without being in an oraganiZation. - @Aerek  (z to annoy @Anatral)
Stuff is mechanical and the energy is gone (except from the sugar). - more Aerek
It's just a matter of lacking purpose, not the a fault with the city. - @Thaumas
Blu doesn't eat enough creepers but I love that they actually have an organiZed government, no matter how mechanical people say it is. (my contribution).




  • AsmodronAsmodron Posts: 2,568Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    From my experience in the world of Muds I have found that neutral organizations tend to give no purpose to the gaming environment. The only good aspect of them is that all those that just wish to stretch out and chill generally join them (you couch potatoes you). These no-alighnment nor purpose organizations are almost always going to be ridiculed by the more RP-based organization. Anyway from what I know Cyrene has a very organization government (almost like Hallifax from Lusternia) and I guess that form of stability is endearing.
  • AsmodronAsmodron Posts: 2,568Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    tl;dr: Give purpose and an Org will advance and grow. Standing aside never works.
  • EphramEphram Posts: 122Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Melodie - Has Cyrene redefined neutral-good then? Because when Ephram was a citizen it was always "Neutral-Good does NOT mean we are politically neutral..."
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaPosts: 4,882Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2012
    @Ephram - Here's a direct quote from CHELP ETHOS that I always tend to use.

    "NEUTRAL-GOOD: Cyrene was re-founded on the principle that we would be and forever remain neutral-good. What is neutral-good, though, exactly? Unlike a truly neutral city, Cyrene is not morally neutral. We do not endorse nor advance the causes of darkness, chaos or evil. Our neutrality is not about seeking some kind of balance between good and evil, nor is it an 'anything goes' neutrality. Our neutrality is largely a political neutrality stemming from our insular heritage as well as our values of respect, peace and tolerance. We are good people, who adopt a live and let live mentality so long as our own way of life is not threatened in any way. We do not take up the righteous fight against evil, darkness or chaos just for the sake of doing so, recognizing the right of others in this realm to choose paths separate from our own."
    "You have had an extraordinary adventure, my dear. Extraordinary! One that few people could ever imagine. Treasure it. Keep it safe and secure, tucked away in some special place in your heart. 

    But... don't spend the rest of your days chasing a ghost."
  • EphramEphram Posts: 122Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Nice. Not sure how long that's been around but I do like that a lot better than the BS people used to spew my way.

    Also, I like how you crossed out respect. ;)

    Anyway, to move on from the things that annoyed me about Cyrene, what the city does well (or did, especially when I was a newbie) was foster an environment of creativity and culture. It was a great starting spot for me, when I wanted a house and a city outside the main areas of conflict. I could roam the world, hunting and exploring without getting caught up in combat or faction-driven wars. As much as some people would argue against it, a game this large really does benefit from having a city where you can avoid all of that.

    Not sure on the current state, but there's always potential for that city, and @Melodie is right, there's great divine working with it right now.

    Just god forbid you ever want to apply to live there... (excluding *shallam refugees, apparently) because that process is a headache and a half. ;)
  • SalinderaSalindera Posts: 72Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I agree with pretty much everything that's been said, except that respect should be axed entirely. I'm not going to argue that it isn't problematic at times, but I think it could continue to exist in a world where Cyrene was given some other value or unifying purpose. Basically, I don't thing respect is the problem, I think it is the lack of some other motivating aspect or ideal that is.

    And I'm sorry to be part of the problem in Cyrene. I'm definitely one of the apathetic people that really only detracts from all the awesome people. That really stems from problems with me as a player though, and I'm trying to fix that best I can.
  • TvistorTvistor Posts: 2,891Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2012
    The amount of quibbling over definitions and policy here accurately reflects Cyrene in my eyes. (not to suggest Cyrene in my eyes is accurate at all)

    Good thread.
    I'm a postgraduate machine learning/cognitive psychology nerd now and am open to neato Achaea-based statistics/programming projects. PM me if you have any ideas.

    I'm currently working on an implementation of a pathfinding algorithm for blind sailors trying to navigate chops and dock at ports.
  • SylvanceSylvance Posts: 1,477Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited December 2012
    I'll get triple WTFd, but as somebody who has pretty much given up on Cyrene for many of the above reasons, I also think that if people want to be lazy, insular coach-potatoes, that's up to them. The people, not the government, should ultimately decide the tone/tenets of a city (with the below caveat) in a democracy; of course it doesn't help that most people's CBA mentality extends to voting. It's rather like RL democracy in this regard. Now, the caveat (and folks will be tired of seeing me state this): if you want the citizens of org X to do something, then require them to do something. Want soldiers? Introduce military service. Want artists? Start booting people from Ty Beirdd who don't want to do Art. Start by making new entrants swear an oath to protect the right to spam CT about cookies and have cuddlefests, rather than expecting somebody else to. TL;DR - we need people who want to contribute, and a government that shows them how. And, yes, please let's get rid of the R word. You can't require nothing but good manners from people, then expect them to be productive.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • KadenKaden Posts: 436Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited December 2012
    I'd really rather not go indepth with this especially because I have no problems with Cyrene as it stands other than a few minor quibbles here and there...

    So I'll contribute with this anecdote: once, while standing in CC, an Ashtani and a rogue earnestly (not ironically) tried to draw me into talk about baked goods. :|
  • RoveldaRovelda Posts: 121Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    That Ashtani was not me, but I also want to hear people talk about baked goods. I have never yet.
  • ThaumasThaumas Posts: 432Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @Idelisa: what I meant was temporary feeling of lack of purpose, and even that I just speculated. Cyrene has its purpose, I believe. Peaceful life? (Just guessing because I don't know).
  • ArlandaArlanda Posts: 269Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Melodie said:
    Something tells me I might regret posting here, but I suppose I'll give it a shot.

    First, thanks @Daeir for your post. That post is more or less what gave me the motivation to go on and respond in the first place. I didn't want to join in a mud-slinging fest.

    Unfortunately due to how we're founded and what we are, Cyrene has a bit of a plague when it comes to the "uncaring, could not give a - if we tried" players. It's really quite the downer, because a lot of people work really, really hard to make Cyrene engaging and fun. I'm constantly out and around, trying to not only help the city directly, but indirectly by being a good, Cyrenian roleplayer. As a priestess, I often have (had?) to play the balance-game of Cyrene vs. Shallam, as an example.

    Some of this is from another thread, but my thoughts are as follows in a basic sense:

    -Respect as a core value needs to go away.
    -Stagnation is a huge issue in terms of actual citizens. People just don't care. We need something to really get behind, without having to actually change the core foundation of what makes Cyrene, Cyrene. People will likely disagree with this point.
    *As a sub-point to the above point, stagnation leads to issues in gaining new  aides/Ministers. We recently took down our Senate from seven to five. We have an up- and-coming crop who are doing well, but tend to get burned out due to overworking. This needs to be addressed, pretty badly. I do what I can, but I'm only one person.
    -People need to understand Cyrene isn't neutral. People argue and argue over neutral-good - here is what it is. Politically neutral, morally good. We do the right thing. We don't endorse Chaos/Darkness/Evil, but we don't chase after it either (or if we do, its on an individual basis). We don't tend to (on a city level) get involved with world issues (obvious exceptions come in).
    -Kyrra happily pointed out our continuing baked goods/food issue. Don't get me wrong, but this issue is way overblown. Yes, we have one or two citizens who we continually have to remind and deal with, but honestly, a HUGE portion of that crap has been put to rest. It still has to be tended to to make sure it doesn't sneak up on us, but in general this has been an issue that is slowly resolving itself. I'm not going to talk about Kii herself here, because I'm just not that kind of person.

    There's likely more points I'm not remembering, as its 2:30 in the morning, but I'm sure they'll come up somewhere. The above is just my main view of issues. Cyrene does a lot of good things, some things people never really get to see because they don't try, or simply give up before really getting into things. We have two amazing Divine who constantly watch the city, an extremely rich history, and a sprinkling of all kinds of different people, from the combat-inclined to the avid roleplayers, to the scholars, to people who just want to relax and get away from other things. Part of what makes Cyrene interesting is the unique make-up of so many different types of people (players) who, in the end, tend to work together and get along, when you ignore the petty issues.
    Nah you won't regret, it is a very nice post. I'm sure most mature people can separate what is said here from what is said IC. I tend towards Iocun view that a city need not have a very clear cut ideology. So what if we have a city of people whose ideal is to ... do nothing but eat cookies? As for respect, I take a relatively moderate stance. Sure we need not have people defending enemies too much and stuff but at times we have people in leadership positions talking in a very rude tone which pisses me so much I just turn the CT off. 

    On a lighter note, if we remove respect as a Cyrene tenet does that mean I can bring the Mojushai to the Mountains to camp with the drakes? Please?
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2012
    It doesn't need to have a clearcut ideology - it needs to have citizens that actually care to some degree about city issues and at the very least, are actively participating in the general community and encouraging people to separate from their little cliques and socialise with other citymates.
  • IdelisaIdelisa Posts: 385Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    No matter where you go you are going to find that though. Houses and Cities both have that problem. It's what I love about Mhaldor so much. They don't let you become lazy an apathetic, they will throw you to the wolves first.

    All of these things can be said about Eluesis (save for a decent government) and Ashtan and they have things to stand for.
  • TanrisTanris Posts: 683Member @ - Epic Achaean

    Respect seems a bit of a troublesome device. How do Cyrenians have heated debates with each other about the merits of one course or the other if one can cry respect the moment things don't go their way? (Legitimate question.) Hard to be passionate about something if any sign of fervour or potentially disrespectful behaviour can be instantly shot down: just seems counter productive to a good environment. (This is all assumption, I have never played a Cyrenian character, but given that I have to suffer through the freedom nonsense, I suspect its not so far off the mark.) As for saying respect keeps leaders polite or whatnot, that hardly seems necessary to me. If your leaders are obnoxious or distasteful, there is a democratic system in place to replace them if enough people agree with your assessment (and if they don't, its probably just a personal difference).

    I appreciate where Iocun's coming from with the stance of cities without a unified purpose, even if I disagree. I 100% concur that it adds an element of realism that not all cities have a singular ideological purpose. However, I also believe that NPC villages fill this purpose quite nicely. Perhaps Hashan and  Cyrene are different--I couldn't say. Ashtan however struggles to get anything particularly interesting done because the city is pulling in four different directions on a good day, which loses its appeal quickly. As for political factions, it rarely works out that way. There will be one faction in power, and they will do absolutely everything possible to mitigate risk of being evicted from power for as long as possible because they know if they are it could be an irl year or more before they get back in leadership. That isn't interesting, and promotes a take no risks and play safe mindset. This situation at least is definitely not unique to Ashtan, its a trend that just over my playtime has been apparent, and I suspect before it too.

  • ErasarielErasariel Posts: 757Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    SCP-2044: The Heart of the Vashnars

    Item #: SCP-2044

    Object Class: Euclid Keter

    Special Containment Procedures: SCP-2044 theoretically cannot be contained, but due to the nature of SCP-2044-1 it is currently isolated in the multiplayer text game [REDACTED]. The internet connections used by instances of SCP-2044-1 will be intercepted by a proxy and packet sniffer that will automatically block any instance of SCP-2044 being attempted to disseminate. Any parties affected by disseminated SCP-2044 will be IP tracked and given a Class-B amnesiac. In case that SCP-2044-1 successfully disseminates SCP-2044 outside the multiplayer text game, Procedure 441-Selik will be carried out to prevent an XK-class event. Details of Procedure 441-Selik can be found at _______ - ____________.

    Description: SCP-2044 is a memetic agent that induces an unnatural appetite for [REDACTED], leading to debilitating and fatal [REDACTED]. SCP-2044 in itself is not harmful if refused by the recipient; however, if the recipient accepts SCP-2044 infection, [DATA EXPUNGED BY ORDER OF 05-1].

    SCP-2044-1 are humans participating in the multiplayer text game [REDACTED] who are infected and are disseminating SCP-2044. Most instances of SCP-2044-1 are members of the faction [REDACTED], notoriously known in the game community for the dissemination of SCP-2044. Seeing as SCP-2044 is not made by SCP-2044-1 with harm in mind, they are not to be terminated and their efforts in disseminating it within the game left unblocked; however, any attempts by SCP-2044-1 to disseminate SCP-2044 outside the game are to be blocked in order to prevent an XK-class event caused by the memetic contagion of the unnatural appetite for [REDACTED].

    SCP-2044 was first found by Foundation electronic task force 056-Delta "Wardens of the Spire"; by the time of discovery, SCP-2044 infection was widespread, and ETF 056-Delta was forced to initiate Procedure 441-Selik, in which a mass [REDACTED] in the form of the [REDACTED] in-game event [REDACTED]




    Addendum: Due to the heavily memetic nature of SCP-2044 and the great bodily harm it could wreak upon the general populace if a containment breach were to happen, its classification is hereby changed to Keter. O5-12

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  • IocunIocun Posts: 3,506Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2012
    Daeir said:
    Point in case, a wonderful interaction with Melodie, Calanthris and a couple of Ashtani just a day ago was summarily ruined by a party of 4 snugglers bursting into CC and talking about getting drunk on rum inbetween a flurry of teehees and hahas.
    I think however that some people are just ruining their own playing experience for regarding public light-heartedness in a much too negative fashion. I realize that there is such a thing as excessive silliness and talk about stupid matters that can diminish the atmosphere of Achaea to a chatroom full of twelve year olds, but there's also the fact that things like "joyfulness", "affection" etc. have been burdened with an unfairly large stigma nowadays - to a point where every chuckle, hug, kiss, the colour pink, and the taste sweet is regarded as some kind of terrible affront to roleplay, while everything that's dark, dangerous, bloody and reeking of decay gets an instant pass, no matter how little it may fit into the game world. (Seriously, that zombie elephant thingy is just as bad as Bumblebeevie...)

    Being drunk, joking around, laughing, etc. is all perfectly expected behaviour on a central market place of an ancient city. I somehow doubt that peasants passing through the Forum Romanum kept themselves to discussing international politics in a serious and academic fashion and never got vulgar in any way...

    And no, I'm not trying to defend the obvious idiots who doubtlessly exist. I'm just saying that some people make this game needlessly annoying for themselves by getting so easily aggravated over certain keywords. ("Oh no, he mentioned a pie! I must now make a huge deal out of it on CT for the next ten minutes, then rant some more on the forums, because that totally ruined my immersion!")
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMPosts: 5,314Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Whenever someone mentions Cyrene and Respect to me, Ic an't help but think of this



    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyPosts: 4,781Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Tanris, heated debates work until the name calling and insults start, because people take a matter of opinion personally.

    I remember when Scarlatti randomly called Lady Selene's teachings utter tripe over the city channel one month. I thought it was disrespectful and somewhat rude for a divine citizen of the city to insult the realms of a another divine citizen. Naturally, I was offended on my Lady's behalf. I stood my ground and argued with a god, in public, because I had a difference of opinion. I wasn't punished for it because I did it respectfully and I'd like to think that Scarlatti knew the difference between that and back chat.

    There's nothing wrong with the core value of respect. From the times when guilds were still around and Cyrene was a much richer RP environment, core values were something that was expressed through many characters. Particularly for the knight classes (at least the Runewarden), but there was nothing wrong with honouring your elders and superiors. But hey, I was raised to have manners. Being polite is as natural as breathing for me.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • RinzaiRinzai Posts: 178Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I agree with a lot of what is said here. Respect is not the problem it's the fact that people don't understand it and use it as a shield or a sword.  Someone does something utterly ridiculous and then screams you have to respect that neener neener neener. But when you treat them like a moron for doing it, now I am being disrespectful because they in don't return respect my opinion. It's idiocy that ruins the idea of respect. So sure drop respect replace it with something else like 'patriotism!' and we will just have the same stupid arguments over the same stupid crap.

    Other major problems in Cyrene is that it is extremely cliquey, and people are willing to back stab over and over again to get what they want, which is good for them and not the city/house. It's kind of disgusting over years and year to see his happen where someone goes "This person should not be a Senator/Minister/House Position" and instead of helping that person (you know so other people can enjoy the game) they go out of their way to prove it to everyone else, and now a good person who was trying to help gets disenchanted and gives up.

    In short the city is frustrating as hell, I'm sure my reaction to some of the above stupidity doesn't help though I try to be inclusive, share spotlights and help..

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Iocun said:
    Being drunk, joking around, laughing, etc. is all perfectly expected behaviour on a central market place of an ancient city. I somehow doubt that peasants passing through the Forum Romanum kept themselves to discussing international politics in a serious and academic fashion and never got vulgar in any way...
    The world is in unrest, a city has been destroyed and Cyrene is presumably filled with refugees crestfallen at the loss of their homes. A foreign immortal threatens to overwhelm all of the realm and has already killed half a dozen divine whom previously worked to maintain the world.



    I had no idea the common peasant was your average teenage schoolgirl.
  • IocunIocun Posts: 3,506Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I wasn't really commenting on this specific situation, since I wasn't there to judge it. Nor could I judge it from your post, because somehow I have the feeling that "WHEE, LET'S BUY SOME BISCUITS AND THEN GET DRUNK AT MY HOUSE!" might not be an entirely accurate quote. My point is just that people tend to be way too sensitive in that area, while being much more willing to glance past RP transgressions when other things are concerned (e.g. combat talk).
This discussion has been closed.