Cyrene

Tvistor

Hey, "We're Cyrenians and we stay out of things" is a perfectly legitimate form of roleplay.

In Mhaldor we have a group of people who think "We're Mhaldorian and should thus be jerks about things" which is arguably more harmful.

What are we talking about again? I lost track.

Ginmund

Daeir said:

Again, you miss my point. I'm too tired to go into this any further - it is nothing wrong with any individual person or groups within Cyrene, it's just a short-falling of not having a common ethos to unite under beyond "we're Cyrenian and we stay out of things". I don't really know how to phrase this any differently, so we'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess. I'm only saying how I feel about the matter in any case.

Sounds to me like you just weren't meant to play a Cyrenian character. All that's happened these last few exchanges is you saying that uniting under only "We're Cyrenian" is bad, while others say that exact same thing is why they like being in Cyrene. Only difference is you don't seem to be willing to acknowledge that your not liking it, doesn't mean everybody has to not like it. It's okay for different players to want different things from the game. It's why there are multiple organizations.

Idelisa

Looks like more rain today!

Tasleus

Aerek said:

Daeir said:

Bah, you don't get it. You can have a central theme that doesn't revolve around doing nothing. Like having the city cater towards craftsmen or artisans, or as a city of art, or something of that calibre. Isn't Hashan formed on the same value of neutrality as well?

We don't get it? You're kidding, right? You're implying that Hashan is more cohesive and productive than Cyrene? I usually try to avoid sounding this dismissive, but do you actually play any characters in either of those cities, or are you just playing armchair analyst?

For a city with "nothing" as its ethos, Cyrene has the best sense of community and culture in this game. We have our problems, but we act more like a real city than Ashtan or Hashan ever has, and we don't have the crippling political conflicts that plagued Shallam. Mhaldor might beat us in cohesion and unity, but they do it with 4 like-minded houses and an oppressive regime. We have 4 diverse houses that could easily hate each other with a burning passion, but because of the substantial roleplay, culture, and loyalty to that "nothing" ethos, we all get along reasonably well.

I agreed with your principles at the start of your input, but now that you're trying to get into details, I don't think you know what you're talking about.

aahahahaha. Oh, man. So seriously, Aerek just kinda let you have it, but what it boils down to is that you really either love or hate Cyrene.

Vayne

Tasleus said:

Aerek said:

Daeir said:

Bah, you don't get it. You can have a central theme that doesn't revolve around doing nothing. Like having the city cater towards craftsmen or artisans, or as a city of art, or something of that calibre. Isn't Hashan formed on the same value of neutrality as well?

We don't get it? You're kidding, right? You're implying that Hashan is more cohesive and productive than Cyrene? I usually try to avoid sounding this dismissive, but do you actually play any characters in either of those cities, or are you just playing armchair analyst?

For a city with "nothing" as its ethos, Cyrene has the best sense of community and culture in this game. We have our problems, but we act more like a real city than Ashtan or Hashan ever has, and we don't have the crippling political conflicts that plagued Shallam. Mhaldor might beat us in cohesion and unity, but they do it with 4 like-minded houses and an oppressive regime. We have 4 diverse houses that could easily hate each other with a burning passion, but because of the substantial roleplay, culture, and loyalty to that "nothing" ethos, we all get along reasonably well.

I agreed with your principles at the start of your input, but now that you're trying to get into details, I don't think you know what you're talking about.

aahahahaha. Oh, man. So seriously, Aerek just kinda let you have it, but what it boils down to is that whether you love or hate Cyrene, it doesn't really care what anyone thinks and will be over there (in the mountains) doing its thang.

Aerek

I don't think you have an ulterior motive, I think you just have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Cyrene was and is intended to be. Achaea caters to lots of different kinds of players, ranging from hardcore PK'ers to chatroom residents, and all of them help contribute, in some manner, to the game. (Despite the forums colonial opinions of some playstyles.) Cyrene (and Hashan in my opinion) exists as a neutral haven for those players who don't have as much interest in the constant fighting that much of the game is centered around. The city is designed for those "do-nothing" players, to a degree, and so trying to impose an ideology that would "unify" it and make it go out and "do things" defeats the purpose of the city in the first place. It's supposed to be a relaxed place where each player is free to do what they like, where they're not forced into the "chores" of the stricter ideologies.

Yes, I find the city dull, at times, and I want to encourage the city to come together and do things together; that's why I agreed with what you were saying in the beginning. But your way of doing it, redefining its central ideology, sparking conflict with other cities or factions, those run counter to the OOC role of the city, even if you think they might help its IC role. The Theodelinda event was neat, it whipped up some frenzy, but then we saw a lot of griping and QQ during the ensuing Ashtan war, because Cyrene is full of players that don't enjoy wars. Same story with the D'mass the Destroyer event, the Cagera event, and the world events like the Coup in the Underworld and this Bal'met event. Were those good for Cyrene because they were fun and broke the monotony? Absolutely. Do things like that need to happen regularly? Absolutely not. Cyrene shouldn't be pushed into activity by a proactive ethos or recurring antagonist, that would just erode its identity until it became "Shallam Lite".

Cyrene's "activity" has to be internally-focused (cute player-run events at home) for it to work, not externally-focused. (aimed at or in view of the world outside) That's why the culture events we do have exists, like Blufest, open Senate meetings, Lords' and Ladies' balls; and why a lot of House events like Ty Beirdd's New Years' concerts, Mojushai lessons, and Warden Accolades all invite the whole city to take part in them. Because Cyrene's lack of "purpose" is made up for by an abundance of culture. As I've said, our 4 Houses are very different from each other. It would be nigh impossible to try and unite them all under one banner, and attempting to do so would create more problems than we have. All we need to do is revisit the things that made the city fun in the past, and that's the sense of community and culture that I've mentioned, above and throughout the thread. Efforts other than that would serve to divide the city, not unite it.

Sigge

I would like to point out, that as far as I know, just because you are a memeber of a City does not mean you HAVE to do things, you CAN just be a resident in that City, you are not obligated to join a House or anything (except in Mhaldor I think).

Nakari

sometimes it is possible for a city to be a place to live, and not a place that should define one's role in the world

Erasariel

Well, now I see Aerek's point.

I realize that making Cyrene start doing things in a regular manner would be unnatural of it - but prodding it to do something every now and then is great.

Maybe I should take this into account next time I log in. Maybe the "Days of our Lives" Cyrene we have is alright.

It'd be a while before I can convince myself that though. :P

Tvistor

On the other hand, if you gave me enough credits to trans a Paladin, the ability to cast people from the city and two IRL months of diplomatic immunity I would turn it into a tiny blue-themed Mhaldor.

I know you don't want it but think about the possibilities.

Aerek

With the sudden influx of novices, lately, I'm giving every newbie Paladin the once-over, thinking "Is this one Tvistor? What about this one? That one knew something I didn't expect, it must be him!"

Idelisa

Just think of Cyrene like a married couple.  Sure, we're comfortable and sometimes a little bit complacent, but we like it that way.  We're secure and stable and we like each other's company.

But, sometimes we get a little bored too and enjoy someone else storming our "castle" to spice things up a bit.

Wait... that's either a really good or really terrible analogy depending on your outlook on life... 

Kidding!!!

Beya

Don't stand in Cyrene if you want me to interact with you. It's miles away from any universe spot, and it's a chore to get to Center Crossing where nobody does anything but stand. In addition, it's cold.

That's my input.

Tasleus

Beya said:

Don't stand in Cyrene if you want me to interact with you. It's miles away from any universe spot, and it's a chore to get to Center Crossing where nobody does anything but stand. In addition, it's cold.

That's my input.

We do much more than just stand in Centre Crossing. Like uhh. Uhm. Hmm.

Um.

what.

Okay. Centre crossing is still the bomb though.

Katzchen

Tasleus said:

Beya said:

Don't stand in Cyrene if you want me to interact with you. It's miles away from any universe spot, and it's a chore to get to Center Crossing where nobody does anything but stand. In addition, it's cold.

That's my input.

We do much more than just stand in Centre Crossing. Like gossip.

Nim

Beya said:

Don't stand in Cyrene if you want me to interact with you. It's miles away from any universe spot, and it's a chore to get to Center Crossing where nobody does anything but stand. In addition, it's cold.

That's my input.

Nim usually sits down. There is a bench there!

Tasleus

Katzchen said:

Tasleus said:

Beya said:

Don't stand in Cyrene if you want me to interact with you. It's miles away from any universe spot, and it's a chore to get to Center Crossing where nobody does anything but stand. In addition, it's cold.

That's my input.

We do much more than just stand in Centre Crossing. Like gossip.

It's true. And also, shenanigans. and UnCyrenian Families!

Daklore

UCF is in the clocktower, not Centre Crossing.

Centre Crossing is where Daklore works on his statue impersonation.

Tasleus

Daklore said:

UCF is in the clocktower, not Centre Crossing.

Centre Crossing is where Daklore works on his statue impersonation.

Aaaaahahaaha, I'm such a horrible ambassadorial aide :P

Jamethiel

If we're playing Uncyrenian Families at Centre Crossing, people really die. Get it right boys and girls!

Tasleus

Jamethiel said:

If we're playing Uncyrenian Families at Centre Crossing, people really die. Get it right boys and girls!

Hahahahaahahaha, the murderer is @Tanris! ALWAYS! xD

Grinidon

phaw!! back to what aerek was saying...ive been in and out of achaea, i had a cyrenian char before but let em dormant too long and had to start over.  sometimes its nice to be a bit laid back, though us wardens arent allowed too ...but even then, i can log in and i dont have to worry about being forced to " event here, you probably dont want to go out right now" or something else that would keep me from doing what i want, or focusing on what I want to accomplish.  That is the heart of Cyrene's theology/ethos, it's the player focus, not the binding rules or good/evil interplay that drives our city.  Besides, if we started interposing ourselves into the war effort, then us wardens would be runnin around all over the place, instead of developing the skills we need to steamroll anyone coming our way.  As a city of refuge, which was how we were revealed to Sapience, if you need a safe place to statue around for a bit, thats fine, but just dont be surprised if your poked....  on a side note, i learned that phaestus does not like to hear cookies on ct... that sucked, especially when i personally vowed, not aloud, that i would abstain from the sweet treats.  Now i just drink more,

Erasariel

Man, @Tasleus. I was the worst ambassador Cyrene ever saw..and even I know my games! :P step it up, bro.

That said, Idelisa's analogy is spot-on.

Elowin

Kyrra said:

Because of the frustration and stagnation of my guild, I naturally leaned toward the city and wanted to involve myself with helping other people instead. Which is what I did. I was happy to forge, do tattoos and runes. I used to risk punishment every time @Xenomorph came to sit in the tunnels and wait to get runes. To this day, I still don't think the man truly understands why I idolized him as a Knight.

...instead of encouraging that, most people go out of their way to stamp out any sort of enthusiasm that I have. I still don't understand why. I'd have thought that most people would appreciate someone willing to volunteer their time to do something their enjoy, which benefits a city. Why have city projects that require citizen donations to complete, if you don't want people to donate? Why encourage people to donate commodities for the community, if they are going to get put down for making the effort?

I've never really had a problem with the city itself, it's more the attitude of the people that has shifted. ... I remember days when everyone was helpful and not just those looking out for their own interests. People in general used to be friendly, easily approachable and helpful. I guess those people are long dormant or something? Centre Crossing used to be a place of social interaction and people were actually in character, and things like daydreaming was pretty much unacceptable. Now it's a given.

My character is now somewhere she is actually wanted and gets to do all things she enjoys doing, and as a result, the person behind the keyboard enjoys logging into the game.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^Because quoting is messed up^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This. So much this.

Finchy

I honestly can't tell what the holy Sartan is even going on. People have stars by their names, there's these badge things. Some people have a suspiciously yellow comment. You can like posts. What is that even about.

So frankly I can barely stand to even go through this thread. I saw "Cyrene" in the topic and basically clung on in dire hope I'd find something to understand. As far as I can tell there seems to be a general agreement that Cyrene both has problems, but is also pretty swell, but is unswell in some aspects.

I also noticed a lot of people posting have been in the city for quite a while. I mean I've been in Cyrene since about 2004. For those people I imagine there must hopefully be something that keeps them there that makes it worth it. For me it's a core concept that there was a city in the game not directly interested in war, and there was some level of cultural distinction. Basically I came for the peaceful ewoks and stayed because there's some immersion there. Festivities, art and song things that range from genuinely impressive to frankly miserable.

I suspect I also stayed because even for a city that doesn't feel like it engages much with the outside world it still has a fully-functional and immersive existence. Ogre invasions, inter-city politics and conflicts that I can run with but don't actually require me to learn how to fight properly. If this didn't actually exist in Cyrene I'm pretty sure I would have stopped playing quite a few years ago. Or gone somewhere else.

I'm not saying there aren't some legitimate things to improve or change. There's probably thousands, millions. I don't think that'll change here, I never found the forums did much more than serve as a brilliant place to discuss the metagame and display some things done right: RP, combat, and of course comedy.

I don't think the shift away from autoclass came about from anything to do with the forums. I don't think the best of what the gods do comes from the forums much either. Or the best bits you see from players. Doesn't mean it's wrong to discuss it, but I honestly think if you want to improve something the only way to do it is to just run with some ideas in game. They won't always work, but if I managed to be a senator then really, you have no excuse not to end up in a position where you have the authority to make some magic happen. You just need the drive.

Someone else mentioned something about finding it hard to drive people. I remember similar problems, but I also remember solving a lot of them by just building momentum. People seem to get behind things that feel like they're going to have a real impact on the game. For Cyrene I guess that could be anything from a conflict of the various tinderbox-like faiths or allegiances in the city (if you want to be less constructive) to joining a ministry and just making your little corner of the city engaging. I don't think anyone can "fix" the problems found alone, they'll burn out. But maybe just start with something small and work your way up.

That's one thing I really like about Cyrene. If you show you're engaged and engaging, people tend to come and back you up. They'll join in, they'll ask you how they can help, how they can get involved. I don't know if that happens in other cities, but I hope so.

Delphinus

Finchy said:

I'm not saying there aren't some legitimate things to improve or change. There's probably thousands, millions. I don't think that'll change here, I never found the forums did much more than serve as a brilliant place to discuss the metagame and display some things done right: RP, combat, and of course comedy.

I don't think the shift away from autoclass came about from anything to do with the forums. I don't think the best of what the gods do comes from the forums much either. Or the best bits you see from players. Doesn't mean it's wrong to discuss it, but I honestly think if you want to improve something the only way to do it is to just run with some ideas in game. They won't always work, but if I managed to be a senator then really, you have no excuse not to end up in a position where you have the authority to make some magic happen. You just need the drive.

That really depends on who's asking, who's listening, and who's allowed to contribute. Many of Achaea's changes happen in direct response to player feedback, and the forums are arguably the best place for it. (The forums also have a higher concentration of grown-the-beard types, but being more invested isn't a bad thing per se.)

Finchy

Delphinus said:

Finchy said:

I'm not saying there aren't some legitimate things to improve or change. There's probably thousands, millions. I don't think that'll change here, I never found the forums did much more than serve as a brilliant place to discuss the metagame and display some things done right: RP, combat, and of course comedy.

I don't think the shift away from autoclass came about from anything to do with the forums. I don't think the best of what the gods do comes from the forums much either. Or the best bits you see from players. Doesn't mean it's wrong to discuss it, but I honestly think if you want to improve something the only way to do it is to just run with some ideas in game. They won't always work, but if I managed to be a senator then really, you have no excuse not to end up in a position where you have the authority to make some magic happen. You just need the drive.

That really depends on who's asking, who's listening, and who's allowed to contribute. Many of Achaea's changes happen in direct response to player feedback, and the forums are arguably the best place for it. (The forums also have a higher concentration of grown-the-beard types, but being more invested isn't a bad thing per se.)

What do you know you don't even have a star. You've got like an @, what's that? That's probably terrible or something. Some people laughed at my post. I assume they're laughing with me, not at me. I think. That probably gives me forum kharma and makes my post better than yours. So you must be wrong or something. Do I get XP if I forum kill you? Or like xbox achievement points?

All of that extremely valid and pertinent paragraph aside, you're probably right. Would you be more willing to accept my comments if I said something like

Finchy said:

I think the forums do contribute positively towards things, but I also suspect that threads where player-driven change (such as this one. I think, I can barely even read what's going on in here) is focused generally do not do as well as say: ideas submitted to the dais and examples of rp/pk/kp/whatever that are good/so horrifyingly bad that the influence people to do better themselves.

In short: Forums good for some things, probably not this kind of thing

EDIT: I just disagreed with you, I mean the post here basically covers that, but now I have a button I can press too.

Kyrra

Finchy said:

What do you know you don't even have a star. You've got like an @, what's that?

Forum phase. It means he is better than anyone except @. How on earth Tvistor managed double phase, I will never know.

Finchy

Kyrra said:

Finchy said:

What do you know you don't even have a star. You've got like an @, what's that?

Forum phase. It means he is better than anyone except @.

Tvistor is one of these?

Jules

Finchy said:

Kyrra said:

Finchy said:

What do you know you don't even have a star. You've got like an @, what's that?

Forum phase. It means he is better than anyone except @.

Tvistor is one of these?

AT-ATs always get owned though :P  But Artoo can even troll Yoda if he's in the mood...