Classleads

Aralaya

@Nazihk except for historically bows and arrows were far more deadly than swords.

Nazihk

Historically, a warhammer overhand to the head should basically be an instant kill. 

Shirszae

Nazihk said:

Historically, a warhammer overhand to the head should basically be an instant kill. 

Additional incentive to parry head against two-handers. I see no trouble with this

Anedhel

Historically, killing a dragon would probably make you King of England  

Atalkez

Nazihk said:

Bann said:

That darkbows report tho lololol

All of my reports start out that way, it's a placeholder until I have the time to sit down and write a real one. 

My big problem is basically that it's way too rewarding to just sit outside of a melee and shoot into it. Arrows hit me for roughly 27% of my max health and a toxin. There is no good reason for them to hit THAT hard.

Full backing to a real proposal to adjust this properly.

Frederich

Give it the old DND method.

Shooting into melee?  Negative chance to hit.

If you miss because of said chance, you hit someone else (besides your target).  GGWP

Bann

Goddamn report 18. Lol.

Valaria

Bann said:

Goddamn report 18. Lol.

actually, I wrote that report. for some reason, i like to be funny whatever i write... I will be never serious in whatever I'm doing.  By the way, this is my first classlead report.

Regi

@Nazihk I had thought of two potential tweaks to that shoot-into-melee thing, because I agree it's bullshit and I get mad everytime someone gets a snipe kill in what's clearly a group melee (I don't mind LoS on LoS or LoS to break turtling on strong ground though).

One is the same as Frederich's suggestion, I like that reasonable chance to hit anyone who's melee attacked your target, and two would be altering effectiveness of bows the more people are in a room. Could do that by lowering accuracy, but I think the best way would be to make AIM necessary to maintain standard accuracy, and make it significantly slower for each extra body. Could lower the DPS of that shooting into melee alot that way.

Shirszae

Watch every serpent in the Known cry about their lupines.

Makarios

Shirszae said:

Nazihk said:

Historically, a warhammer overhand to the head should basically be an instant kill. 

Additional incentive to parry head against two-handers. I see no trouble with this

I'm sure the old axekick formula is still floating around our system somewhere...

Anedhel

Lethal ink 2h'ers. I approve  

Nazihk

Regi said:

@Nazihk I had thought of two potential tweaks to that shoot-into-melee thing, because I agree it's bullshit and I get mad everytime someone gets a snipe kill in what's clearly a group melee (I don't mind LoS on LoS or LoS to break turtling on strong ground though).

One is the same as Frederich's suggestion, I like that reasonable chance to hit anyone who's melee attacked your target, and two would be altering effectiveness of bows the more people are in a room. Could do that by lowering accuracy, but I think the best way would be to make AIM necessary to maintain standard accuracy, and make it significantly slower for each extra body. Could lower the DPS of that shooting into melee alot that way.

I feel like slowing it to lower the DPS isn't going to be enough here, because the burst will still be extremely strong. Arrows hit me for ~27% of my max health. That's an awful big burst to try to balance around, especially when it's a 'safe' attack that comes from outside the room. You could straight up double the balance on it and it would STILL be worthwhile for people like Mycen to sit outside of giant melees with their bow instead of getting intot he actual fight.

Omor

Balance around Lupine's doing around 25% total. 4 lupine's (simultaneously) instakilling someone is artifact advantage, not overpowered, in my opinion. 4 regular darkbows, or even 5, should never instakill a normal combatant.

Nazihk

Lupine is beyond artifact advantage because it works in a way that's contrary to Achaean combat. It's overpowered because it allows you to leave the dangers of a melee fight while still dropping massive hits into the fight from a position of relative safety. 

Farrah

It's not just bows though. Some classes have their own attacks that are just as bad, or worse because bow at least has a strong counter to it now in timewell.

Aegoth

LoS in general is shitty, but so is entrenchment. If you get rid of one, the other becomes impossible to overcome. needs to be an elegant solution, like worldwide cata

Durian

If you lessen Lupine's effectiveness, you would have to balance Collar effectiveness for Kai Choke, Staffcast, etc.  You can't pidgeonhole one source of LoS damage and ignore the others, then you'll just have people begging to nerf the others too.  In my eyes if you want it changed you have to address LoS as a whole and not just one aspect of it.

Worldwide cata sounds like a nightmare by the way Aegoth, may your idea burn in the depths of hell.

Aegoth

Durian said:

Worldwide cata sounds like a nightmare by the way Aegoth, may your idea burn in the depths of hell.

Hell is where all the awesome people go. Worldwide Cata is bae

Frederich

Kai choke has a readily available defense that stops it, entirely.  (idk how staffcast hits away.  Cataclysm???)

Breathstream & Bows are pretty much the bane of existence as we've seen time and time and time again with Eleusians.  No way to stop it aside from just not playing their LoS game and bumrushing the living hell out of them. It's not fun in the slightest to play against.

Anyways.  I think 6 and 31 were the ones I did.

Alrena

LoS is a necessary evil. As Aegoth said, without LoS it becomes incredibly hard to fight entrenched groups with totems, vibes, rites, harmonics, and so on. Naturally, nobody likes getting blown up by breathstreams, lupines, grove lightning and what have you. There's nothing fun about getting mowed down by one volley. Still, there's some things you can do about it, there's a few counters.

The other thing with LoS is that certain classes can easily deal high damage from adjacent with little to no risk. Ideally, a solution would be that there's a chance your LoS ability hits a random other person in the room instead of the intended target. So if you shoot in an enemy group, you might hit another enemy. If you shoot in a melee, you might hit your own team (Oops). I doubt it'd discourage sniping in melee, but it could mitigate some of the damage and encourage people to dive in instead. Maybe? A one in three chance to hit another target seems reasonable to me.

Antonius

Alrena said:

LoS is a necessary evil. As Aegoth said, without LoS it becomes incredibly hard to fight entrenched groups with totems, vibes, rites, harmonics, and so on. Naturally, nobody likes getting blown up by breathstreams, lupines, grove lightning and what have you. There's nothing fun about getting mowed down by one volley. Still, there's some things you can do about it, there's a few counters.

The other thing with LoS is that certain classes can easily deal high damage from adjacent with little to no risk. Ideally, a solution would be that there's a chance your LoS ability hits a random other person in the room instead of the intended target. So if you shoot in an enemy group, you might hit another enemy. If you shoot in a melee, you might hit your own team (Oops). I doubt it'd discourage sniping in melee, but it could mitigate some of the damage and encourage people to dive in instead. Maybe? A one in three chance to hit another target seems reasonable to me.

Most of the time vibes, rites and harmonics don't really swing a melee fight in either direction too much, with the exception of retardation and occasionally gravehands/piety in adjacent rooms (though that's primarily an issue because you can combine it with LoS to pick people off). I'd be more than happy to see further changes to retardation and totems - and, if required, limits on stacking rites, vibes and harmonics in the same room - if that meant actually taking a real look at LoS across the board.

Farrah

I'd be wary of that approach. I like the overall complexity things like entrenchment, totems/ret, LoS, icewall/firewall/douse, timewell, bombs, etc. provide. When I tried Aetolia, and everyone just immediately melees, every single fight, it seemed really boring to me.

Caelan

Frederich said:

Kai choke has a readily available defense that stops it, entirely.  (idk how staffcast hits away.  Cataclysm???)

Breathstream & Bows are pretty much the bane of existence as we've seen time and time and time again with Eleusians.  No way to stop it aside from just not playing their LoS game and bumrushing the living hell out of them. It's not fun in the slightest to play against.

Anyways.  I think 6 and 31 were the ones I did.

Wouldn't like.. shield, stonewall, timewarp, icewall, etc be "a readily available defense that stops" bow?

Or just.. move?

Ahmet

Walls stop LoS?

I mean, you'd think that would make sense but I'm pretty sure I've LoS'd past a wall before. Maybe it was a bug, or just one type of LoS. I dunno.

Shirszae

Walls make arrows much more inaccurate.

ETA: And stop BReathstream entirely, I believe.

Farrah

That's one change I wouldn't mind, though - if ice/stonewalls indiscriminately stopped all LoS rather than stopping some, making some less accurate, and not affecting some. I think it's fair to have to kill the wall if you want to attack from afar.

Shirszae

Would that include monk telepathy? Thurisaz? Those are Los too, no? So the same problem is going to remain regardless. Personally, I think its fine that there's no one ring solution to everything Los-wise.

Caelan

Farrah said:

That's one change I wouldn't mind, though - if ice/stonewalls indiscriminately stopped all LoS rather than stopping some, making some less accurate, and not affecting some. I think it's fair to have to kill the wall if you want to attack from afar.

Pretty sure the point there is that, in most cases, that would completely shut down LoS and force entrenchment, which kind of destroys the dynamic of some fighting.

Farrah

Shirszae said:

Would that include monk telepathy? Thurisaz? Those are Los too, no? So the same problem is going to remain regardless. Personally, I think its fine that there's no one ring solution to everything Los-wise.

Fair. I think thurisaz and crush are fine because of flood and the mind lock requirement.

But Kai Choke doesn't really have a reasonable counter in many situations (can't stay on balance to keep breath held), so I wouldn't mind wall stopping that. And I don't think dopplegangers really have a counter. You can banishment (Targ only) or orb, but both of those things don't even keep the doppleganger from attacking first. I'm not sure what else - I may be missing others that aren't stopped by walls.

Meteors/cataclysm you can go indoors. I'm not sure that's a reasonable counter though either.

Caelan said:

Farrah said:

That's one change I wouldn't mind, though - if ice/stonewalls indiscriminately stopped all LoS rather than stopping some, making some less accurate, and not affecting some. I think it's fair to have to kill the wall if you want to attack from afar.

Pretty sure the point there is that, in most cases, that would completely shut down LoS and force entrenchment, which kind of destroys the dynamic of some fighting.

Not exactly. It just means you need a designated wall breaker if you want to LoS and the other side is smart enough to douse your firewalls and wall. I think that's fair, rather than LoS just reigning supreme.