Classleads

Kythra

Instead of making a topic every time classleads happen let's just make one thread we can necro and look back to years from now and have sensible chuckles!

JANUARY 2K17 CLASSLEADS!

Seems there is a general consensus that aeon is incredibly toxic for group combat and the new meta with Depthswalker being released. Lots of people want it removed from DW's already overloaded kit and I have to agree. Or at least make it a high end cap ability in Terminus.


KEEP IT CIVIL. KEEP IT CLEAN. LETS DISCUSS!

Antonius

I don't think removing aeon from Depthswalker is a suitable solution. It's not any less toxic when it's only available to Occultist and Jester, even if it's used less. Not really expecting to see any changes to aeon though.

Farrah

It was added to Depthswalker as a balancing factor, because Aeon is so strong but only one faction had regular, easy access to it. Removing it from Depthswalker just places us back at "Ashtan is OP because Ashtan can spam Aeon the same way we all could when everyone had it." It's not a solution.

I'd be fine with some of the other suggestions, such as removing raze speed, aeon immunity on burst, or some kind of aura preventing immediate double Aeon, but not removal from DW.

Alrena

Why not remove it from tarot as well? Keeps slowlock potential through vodun/puppetry, without being spammable in group combat. We used to have the choice to not fight 'op' ashtan. Now everybody aeons because it is simply the easiest way. Even with those minor tweaks, aeon will remain the meta in group combat.

Makarios

I'll note that this is one of the reasons I dislike factional classes. Its been about two months and an issue that was previously one of the most devisive balancing topics is already mutually considered to be unacceptable. If anythings convinced me cutting back on faction-locked mechanics was the right move, its the aeon situation.

Puxi

What if you had DW aeon and Tarot aeon work differently instead of together? Also, aeon could be changed so only the person that strips speed can stick it. Just a thought.

Ahmet

Could just remove aeon.

Exelethril

Prevent aeon on burst please 

Borran

I don't understand the hating on Depthswalker for this. Aeon's been an easy affliction for Occies and Jesters forever and tons of classleads have come and gone without it being taken out. And all it required was 20g and planning ahead of time. AND they have Devil Tarot in case Aeon wasn't strong enough, you get to add another effect as well. But Depthswalker gets the ability to fling an Aeon Tarot on a 2.6 eq and the whole world loses their mind. 

That being said, Aeon/Retardation effects suck to fight through and its effect in group combat is further intensified when outnumbered. 

I haven't thought it through all the way, but a solution may be to change the way speed defense is removed instead of just deleting it. You can't have Depthswalkers having a skill called AEONICS and then take away AEON. 

Maybe removing Aeon's (and other abilities') ability to strip speed and adding class-specific methods to remove speed which have prerequisite components or isolate the person to be vulnerable to Aeon only from the person that casted it. 

Cooper

Jesters have been extremely rare, and are extremely squishy. Occultists have been locked to one faction, so 80% of the time you don't even have a chance to fight one. Depthswalkers are in every city, and the class is extremely popular right now. Massive damage, the best utility of any class, extremely high affliction output, and access to aeon.

Borran

Classes should be balanced against one another, not balanced against the likelihood of seeing one. 

Aquil

Retardation was fine because it evened the playing ground with those who could tumble out and everyone was under the same afflictions. We're assuming of course you aren't beckoned into a totem and breath storm and ret. Just Halos or Aegoth randomly popping the vibe mid combat. 

With tarot users it was a bit more like "who's the jester and target them first." Now it's everyone is a jester and now we have Lilian, Gavriil, Senoske, and others that can throw aeon right away with no pre requisite afflictions.

I think a good fix would be moving it into Terminus and making it way higher  cost or make aeon require pre requisite afflictions. that makes the most sense to me other than dealing with the aeon DW bandwagon.

Ahmet

Seeing aeon as a capstone affliction would be cool.

Gavriil

Aquil said:

Retardation was fine because it evened the playing ground with those who could tumble out and everyone was under the same afflictions. We're assuming of course you aren't beckoned into a totem and breath storm and ret. Just Halos or Aegoth randomly popping the vibe mid combat. 

With tarot users it was a bit more like "who's the jester and target them first." Now it's everyone is a jester and now we have Lilian, Gavriil, Senoske, and others that can throw aeon right away with no pre requisite afflictions.

I think a good fix would be moving it into Terminus and making it way higher  cost or make aeon require pre requisite afflictions. that makes the most sense to me other than dealing with the aeon DW bandwagon.

I'll take this as a badge of honour!

Aquil

It's not an insult, certainly! Just the fact that you're all DW and you can all throw aeon and it will shut anyone down with 0 counter play. It's great that @Makarios wants to balance out factions, but it remains that it's not fun in group combat at all.

Jesters do not exist. Occies can use aeon but it wasn't the first option of the A-team. Now it's Dunn leading off with aeon, Kasa leading off with Aeon, Driden leading off with aeon. Etc etc.

Nazihk

The problem with Aeon is that it is too effective as a group CC mechanic. It's very easy to aeon somebody in a group and one you're aeoned you're straight up fucked. You can't effectively cure out of it and you can't effectively cure anything else, either.

On the other hand, in 1v1 it's basically just a newbie-killer. None of the classes that have aeon rely on it as a primary kill method, with the possible exception of the Jester.

With that in mind I would have no real problems with hitting aeon with the nerfbat and maybe fixing Jesters if it proves to cripple them. Or maybe not. Fuck Jesters

Cooper

DW in general is an extremely powerful class, even in the hands of people who have absolutely no clue how to use it. No matter what you're either going to be doing aeon or huge damage in groups. Instill ensures you're doing at least some intelligent and useful afflictions. Even if you only have two buttons - one that does your favorite instill + curare or prefarar, and one that does aeon, you're going to be really useful in groups.

Atalkez

DW losing Aeon is a terrible idea. Fix the affliction, not remove it from the one class that got it for balancing to begin with.

Nazihk

I feel like Depthswalkers might balance Aeon simply by making the entire world go "Okay, yeah, this is bullshit and now we're all invested in getting rid of it".

Aeon is in a pretty weird place right now. It's absolutely devastating in group combat as a practically uncounterable CC, but it's pretty mediocre in 1v1 and the steps taken to balance it for group combat would be arbitrary and stupid rules like "He who strips speed must deliver aeon" or temporary immunity provided by starburst and that kind of thing.

With that in mind I don't think it would be bad at all to completely repurpose Aeon into another form, since the current form is both completely unnecessary as well as a significant balance problem.

Tahquil

I'm reading a lot of these and laughing because we can swap aeon for crucible and it all sounds the same.

Aegoth

Tahquil said:

I'm reading a lot of these and laughing because we can swap aeon for crucible spammable AoE and it all sounds the same.

ftfy

Nazihk

Right now I have two problems with the crucible.

#1 is a problem with the strength of AOE in general.

#2 is that I don't like the crucible firing on deaths that occured out of the room it is in. It's super frustrating to go over a log looking for what killed you and find out that you died because of a completely unrelated death halfway across the world.

Alrena

Makarios said:

I'll note that this is one of the reasons I dislike factional classes. Its been about two months and an issue that was previously one of the most devisive balancing topics is already mutually considered to be unacceptable. If anythings convinced me cutting back on faction-locked mechanics was the right move, its the aeon situation.

Well, aeon was always a terribly easy kill method in group combat. Just because everyone can have it now doesn't mean the affliction itself is balanced. It should be removed from Tarot as well as Aeonics.

In comparison I think it is good every faction gets beckon now. Beckon offers counterplay and opens up strategies that most of the game didn't have. And you can stop being beckoned. But there is not much you can do once aeon hits you, and there are groups with mutiple dw in them. Dw is not the issue in this case, it just shows how blatant the problem of aeon itself is. I think I haven't been in a group skirmish yet without getting aeoned at least once, or without our own group using it. 

Omor

It's been said, but I'm going to reiterate. The problem isn't that DW have aeon, the problem is the aeon affliction itself. It's impossible  extremely difficult to code around, so if you get it, you're dead.

Valaria

i find it strange that some of you want to remove the aeon from DW class where one of three skillset is titled as aeonic. Beside that, in group fight one might or should identify fighter who does aeon and dispatch a DW fighter. For me, i find retribution more dangerous than Aeon. but then that is just me.   

Solution: Aeon (and other related skills from other classes) stays, if first person aeoned against a target. then anyone else than first person cannot aeon this target. (something similar to kai cripple and other related skills that does that?)

My two cent.

Calira

Removing or re-purposing Aeon would be a huge mistake. Aeon in 1v1 is somewhat uncommon, but the mechanic is both powerful and fair for the classes that can make use of it. Removing it would have a profoundly negative effect on the 1v1 potential of Shaman and especially Jester, which relies on both Aeon Tarot and Puppet Slow for different purposes. Aeon in its current form isn't perfectly balanced for teams, but I would argue that it serves an important role there, too. Having tools to take down otherwise extremely difficult targets quickly is important, and Aeon allows a team to do that. Aeon might currently be too low-cost to be fair in teams, but destroying it instead of tweaking it or Speed would be a dramatic overreaction.

Aegoth

Calira said:

Removing or re-purposing Aeon would be a huge mistake. Aeon in 1v1 is somewhat uncommon, but the mechanic is both powerful and fair for the classes that can make use of it. Removing it would have a profoundly negative effect on the 1v1 potential of Shaman and especially Jester, which relies on both Aeon Tarot and Puppet Slow for different purposes. Aeon in its current form isn't perfectly balanced for teams, but I would argue that it serves an important role there, too. Having tools to take down otherwise extremely difficult targets quickly is important, and Aeon allows a team to do that. Aeon might currently be too low-cost to be fair in teams, but destroying it instead of tweaking it or Speed would be a dramatic overreaction.

Pretty much everything you said here is wrong. Sorry. But I guess you get a cookie for trying

Calira

Aegoth said:

Pretty much everything you said here is wrong. Sorry. But I guess you get a cookie for trying

Please, enlighten me

Makarios

We'll not be deleting aeon. Adjustments to raise the opportunity cost for teams will likely be the direction we go.

Exelethril

The problem right now is probs aeon loop and aeon on burst versus a group with Depthswalkers.

Cooper

Aegoth said:

Calira said:

Removing or re-purposing Aeon would be a huge mistake. Aeon in 1v1 is somewhat uncommon, but the mechanic is both powerful and fair for the classes that can make use of it. Removing it would have a profoundly negative effect on the 1v1 potential of Shaman and especially Jester, which relies on both Aeon Tarot and Puppet Slow for different purposes. Aeon in its current form isn't perfectly balanced for teams, but I would argue that it serves an important role there, too. Having tools to take down otherwise extremely difficult targets quickly is important, and Aeon allows a team to do that. Aeon might currently be too low-cost to be fair in teams, but destroying it instead of tweaking it or Speed would be a dramatic overreaction.

Pretty much everything you said here is wrong. Sorry. But I guess you get a cookie for trying

I agree with everything Calira said.