Classleads

Daeir

I guess you're also wrong and get a cookie for trying, following Aegoth logic.

Cooper

I'm hungry. 

Tydas

Cooper said:

I'm hungry. 

Here you go.

Aegoth

I have plenty of cookies for everyone, if they wanna keep it up

Cooper

Anyway, here's a decent solution for aeon:

Remove raze/flay speed (can you still flay speed? idk).

Aeon aura on burst.

Only person who strips speed can aeon.

~5 second aeon aura on burst.

Boom, fixed for groups. Still the same in 1v1.

Puxi

Yes. SnB can raze speed.

Prythe

Makarios said:

I'll note that this is one of the reasons I dislike factional classes. Its been about two months and an issue that was previously one of the most devisive balancing topics is already mutually considered to be unacceptable. If anythings convinced me cutting back on faction-locked mechanics was the right move, its the aeon situation.

Let's remove factional classes! 

Farrah

Cooper said:

Anyway, here's a decent solution for aeon:

Remove raze/flay speed (can you still flay speed? idk).

Aeon aura on burst.

Only person who strips speed can aeon.

~5 second aeon aura on burst.

Boom, fixed for groups. Still the same in 1v1.

Would have to be some kind of aura after speed strip preventing immediate aeon or preventing aeon from anyone other than the speed stripper for 10 seconds or something, rather than a simple "only speed stripper can give aeon." Otherwise, an ally can strip your speed and you can just leave it down and be immune to aeon.

Raizen

Thoughts?

Deliverance currently punishes classes that have double or triple attacks too heavily by going through starburst, or even multiple starburst layers. This tilts the advantage too much in the monk and his group's favour, especially in groups, where bursts are essential to keep a numbers advantage: the risk/reward ratio is too high. Lastly, no other skill in Achaea has the ability to kill someone immediately again through burst from a single mistake.

Jinsun

If we're going to nerf aeon LoS can we do some factional LoS nerfs like Lightning and soulspear? LoS aeon was pretty much the best way to combat massive LoS groups where you just felt helpless to the damage spam (which doesn't take a lot of skill, either).

Alrena

Jinsun said:

If we're going to nerf aeon LoS can we do some factional LoS nerfs like Lightning and soulspear? LoS aeon was pretty much the best way to combat massive LoS groups where you just felt helpless to the damage spam (which doesn't take a lot of skill, either).

I feel like you can safely add doppie warp in that list. Way more do than soulspear. Soulspear is fine now it doesn't impale.

Morthif

Alrena said:

Jinsun said:

If we're going to nerf aeon LoS can we do some factional LoS nerfs like Lightning and soulspear? LoS aeon was pretty much the best way to combat massive LoS groups where you just felt helpless to the damage spam (which doesn't take a lot of skill, either).

I feel like you can safely add doppie warp in that list. Way more do than soulspear. Soulspear is fine now it doesn't impale.

I think he was responding to the doppie classleads

Daeir

Soulspear's fine and actually in a pretty good spot. Still hurts like fuck and GH initiate is serious business that you do not want to fuck with. Way better than what it used to be while still being strong.

Deliverance is the ultimate "OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES" ability. If you die to it outside of force, it's your own fault. 100%.

Auras are dumb and largely intuitive fixes to problem. Aeon needs something else, something more thought out. Cooper's suggestion isn't bad.

Antonius

Morthif said:

Alrena said:

Jinsun said:

If we're going to nerf aeon LoS can we do some factional LoS nerfs like Lightning and soulspear? LoS aeon was pretty much the best way to combat massive LoS groups where you just felt helpless to the damage spam (which doesn't take a lot of skill, either).

I feel like you can safely add doppie warp in that list. Way more do than soulspear. Soulspear is fine now it doesn't impale.

I think he was responding to the doppie classleads

I'm sure he was. The fact remains that saying "If you nerf LoS aeon you also have to nerf factional LoS damage abilities" while conveniently ignoring the fact that Occultist also has a factional LoS damage ability is kind of dumb.

Cooper

Raizen said:

Thoughts?

Deliverance currently punishes classes that have double or triple attacks too heavily by going through starburst, or even multiple starburst layers. This tilts the advantage too much in the monk and his group's favour, especially in groups, where bursts are essential to keep a numbers advantage: the risk/reward ratio is too high. Lastly, no other skill in Achaea has the ability to kill someone immediately again through burst from a single mistake.

No one should ever die to deliverance. Stop auto targeting and auto attacking and your problem is solved. 

Puxi

Dunn had a beckon into a Jhui Deliverance yesterday that was pretty slick. But yea, Deliverance shouldn't be killing you much.

Jinsun

Antonius said:

Morthif said:

Alrena said:

Jinsun said:

If we're going to nerf aeon LoS can we do some factional LoS nerfs like Lightning and soulspear? LoS aeon was pretty much the best way to combat massive LoS groups where you just felt helpless to the damage spam (which doesn't take a lot of skill, either).

I feel like you can safely add doppie warp in that list. Way more do than soulspear. Soulspear is fine now it doesn't impale.

I think he was responding to the doppie classleads

I'm sure he was. The fact remains that saying "If you nerf LoS aeon you also have to nerf factional LoS damage abilities" while conveniently ignoring the fact that Occultist also has a factional LoS damage ability is kind of dumb.

Here's what I think you missed. I mentioned that we should nerf things that do more than just LoS damage. Such as lightning afflicting and soulspear initiating gravehands. Doppie warp is flat damage. I'm not ignoring it, and didn't say that there need to be no LoS damage abilities. Would kind of take away the point of LoS.

Antonius

Jinsun said:

Antonius said:

Morthif said:

Alrena said:

Jinsun said:

If we're going to nerf aeon LoS can we do some factional LoS nerfs like Lightning and soulspear? LoS aeon was pretty much the best way to combat massive LoS groups where you just felt helpless to the damage spam (which doesn't take a lot of skill, either).

I feel like you can safely add doppie warp in that list. Way more do than soulspear. Soulspear is fine now it doesn't impale.

I think he was responding to the doppie classleads

I'm sure he was. The fact remains that saying "If you nerf LoS aeon you also have to nerf factional LoS damage abilities" while conveniently ignoring the fact that Occultist also has a factional LoS damage ability is kind of dumb.

Here's what I think you missed. I mentioned that we should nerf things that do more than just LoS damage. Such as lightning afflicting and soulspear initiating gravehands. Doppie warp is flat damage. I'm not ignoring it, and didn't say that there need to be no LoS damage abilities. Would kind of take away the point of LoS.

Your post mentions nerfing "factional LoS" then goes on to mention LoS damage, so the logical conclusion was that the problem you have with those abilities, and the thing you feel should be nerfed, is the damage. If that's not what you meant, you really need to be more explicit.

Driden

As I have said before. I'm okay with either making aeon harder for groups to pull off or stripping it from dw skill set. I maintain that even without aeon dw is still a powerhouse in group combat. 

Krypton

R.I.P. Dragon Uraiad!

Antonius

Krypton said:

R.I.P. Dragon Uraiad!

Have to wonder if that still would have happened if somebody hadn't submitted that classlead whining about artefacts not always being 100% effective for it.

Aquil

Some of CLASSLEAD LIST APPROVED/REJECTED have been put up! 

I am quite a fan of 72, if I do say so myself!

Nazihk

Antonius said:

Krypton said:

R.I.P. Dragon Uraiad!

Have to wonder if that still would have happened if somebody hadn't submitted that classlead whining about artefacts not always being 100% effective for it.

I feel like it wouldn't have happened immediately, but that at some point Makarios would have read a post or a log on the forums and gone "You know, Dragon uraiad is sort of bullshit".

Borran

Can't log in right now to read classleads,  but I wanna!

Farrah

Antonius said:

Krypton said:

R.I.P. Dragon Uraiad!

Have to wonder if that still would have happened if somebody hadn't submitted that classlead whining about artefacts not always being 100% effective for it.

Was my classlead. Wasn't "whining."

Just pointing out an oddity that I think was reasonable to fix. Depthswalker is already an artefact-light class. It doesn't need an ability that favors no stat arties over arties too.

And they weren't "not always 100% effective." They were always 0% effective, since you get the exact same stats regardless of your arties.

Ahmet

Technically they were at least 50% effective, since max uptime on Uraiad is 50% of the time.

Borran

For classlead 32, regarding raze, the speed strip alternative could be stripping a preapplied salve to add counter-counter play.

Though I've not much experience with preapplying. Typically if someone had a setup that requires me to counter with preapplying, I just say, "Whelp, don't fight them again. "

Senoske

Maybe if person x wasn't the person who stripped person y's speed defense, Aeon cast by person x only lasts like 2-3 seconds (With diminishing returns if you spam it, even if you change target)? Of course this would be on a timer of say 10 seconds that way people can't walk around without the speed defense to make a temporary aeon always happen.

That way it still maintains its effectiveness in 1v1 but has less of a devastating effect in group.

Borran said:

For classlead 32, regarding raze, the speed strip alternative could be stripping a preapplied salve to add counter-counter play. 

Though I've not much experience with preapplying. Typically if someone had a setup that requires me to counter with preapplying, I just say, "Whelp, don't fight them again. "

As someone who came from Aetolia. I haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate pre-application calculations.

Borran

@Makarios For Classlead 56, support characters are going to just reapply the defense when it fades from the person propping totems. I'm not sure if that was the intention. 

Daeir

Interesting classleads round. You've opened up the pits of hell to anyone smart enough to abuse the comboable non-void elemental fists, though. They're INCREDIBLY potent in certain offense chains.