Classleads

Driden

Sheesh im so glad I dropped DW. After you guys get done gutting it might as well buy a lupine an snipe at that point. 

Leviticus

@Devran

Serpent (L3 fang)
Alchie
Occie
Bard
Shikudo
Apostate

Elisella

Atalkez said:

@Keorin I would 100% rather fight DW than Serpent Apostate or Alchemist, which are going to be the closest comparison to DW.

I legitimately have no idea why you'd rather fight DW over Serpent/Apostate, especially as monk. Serpents are squishy because they have to spec Dex, Apostates have no kill path beyond locking you since Corrupt tickles and Catharsis isn't happening against mind drain.

Explain for the class?

Leviticus

Driden said:

Sheesh im so glad I dropped DW. After you guys get done gutting it might as well buy a lupine an snipe at that point. 

Won't be nerfed because too many people are DW which will result in nothing happening to it. As this classlead round not a lot of DW classleads were submitted. 

I don't know too much about DW, I do have the class but havn't put too much time into it. We shall see what happens now that the spotlight is on it. Maybe better curing strategies will come out. I fought sylphie and it was a long fight that I had to shield and run a lot to reset her which destroys 2H momentum.

Kiet

Apostate isn't really a threat if you're competent defensively, seems weird to say you'd rather fight any class over it.

Also, uh, druid and occultist were both hot garbage for over a decade in 1v1, precisely because of their utility as was stated.

Atalkez

I’m not speaking from the perspective of my class, just in general. I find serpent and apostate more threatening than dw in 1v1 especially. This is also at the top tier, where serpents are not squishy, apostates don’t hit curseward and the lock is near perfect, or alchemist where it’s just a paralysis bomb until you die plus not being squishy.

Serpent has a better 1v1 by far imo, and I’ve played both classes against everyone. 

Edit: I feel like people aren’t curing the greatest, or are staying around too long before going defensive, against DW. It could be the way timeloop interacts that makes people concerned. The thing about timeloop is that the DW is giving up all up front hinder to do that non boosted, and can’t use non boosted as a mask if you used boosted recently. So it’s a matter of reacting quicker. Play it like you play Occultist, imo.

Kiet

Serp/alchemist are way more dangerous, yes, I'm just confused how you're at all threatened by apostate if you're top tier. That said, I wouldn't say DW is king of 1v1 either anyway, I'd just put it, at worst, at the same level as apostate.

Also apostate hitting curseward or not doesn't really make curseward shut their offense out any less lol.

Atalkez

Breach/aff secures a lock just fine. Apostate is great 1v1, I guess everyone have just forgot. Medi didn’t seem to struggle too much. Neither did Farrah. I’m not saying apostate can’t be beaten, but it’s scarier to me than dw.

Kiet

No DW seems to struggle too much either, not sure what your point is. If you're good you can win as any class right now, but apostate is one of the least scary momentum classes right now. Farrah played before a bunch of nerfs, and Medi shared the opinion that the class was pretty easy to turtle against iirc. Then again, being easy to turtle against is most aff classes, the exceptions being notable.

The fact that the classes are all pretty close in 1v1 balance doesn't mean that apostate is on the same level as serp/bard/alch, just that it's not bad.

Driden

Kiet said:

Serp/alchemist are way more dangerous, yes, I'm just confused how you're at all threatened by apostate if you're top tier. That said, I wouldn't say DW is king of 1v1 either anyway, I'd just put it, at worst, at the same level as apostate.

Also apostate hitting curseward or not doesn't really make curseward shut their offense out any less lol.

never played apostate myself but Alrena has been very consistent in her complaints about crs and apostate getting shut down by it to easily. But i never understood how it was bad really. 

Reyson

It's not bad, defence against it is just trivial and simple to use. 

Farrah

Kiet said:

No DW seems to struggle too much either, not sure what your point is. If you're good you can win as any class right now, but apostate is one of the least scary momentum classes right now. Farrah played before a bunch of nerfs, and Medi shared the opinion that the class was pretty easy to turtle against iirc. Then again, being easy to turtle against is most aff classes, the exceptions being notable.

The fact that the classes are all pretty close in 1v1 balance doesn't mean that apostate is on the same level as serp/bard/alch, just that it's not bad.

Apostate was buffed after I stopped playing it. What was nerfed about it? I am genuinely confused by this statement. I can't remember any nerfs, only buffs. Apostate is a lot stronger than a lot of people give it credit for. I'm not saying it's the strongest, but it definitely has its strengths and is competitive.

Honestly, to answer @Devran I think most momentum classes are relatively balanced overall. Otherwise, I would be classleading more changes to them. I'm very involved in ACC and trying to balance them. Some are better unartied than others, but at least at max speed you can fight as any one (it's not that you necessarily can't at less than max speed, just that I tend to play everything at max speed and don't want to make assumptions). There are issues here or there but I don't like to try to rate them. I win against serpents. I lose against serpents. I have yet to beat a good alchie as DW, but I haven't spent much time trying so I'm willing to say maybe I can if I work on it. I haven't beaten a good bard as DW either, but same.

Granted, the one momentum class I think actually needs nerfs is bard, so I guess I could safely say I think bard is the strongest. It still has weaknesses, but I think bard's weakness compared to other momentum classes is slow prep, whereas it dominates against other momentum classes that cannot slow prep it. I would say bard > alchie > others in a straight momentum v momentum fight.

@Keorin I was using a very simplified example. There are other things that make the matchups weigh more against DW in ways that make up for all of the advantages you listed. For example, DW is the only momentum class without a passive or effectively passive heal of some kind. Serpent and Alchie can salt/shrug without stopping their offense. Bard, Occultist, Priest, Apostate all have passive cures. This makes a substantial difference in practice because everytime these can be used DW has to do an extra attack to catch back up. Then, of course, snb has smash high, not just aconite/slike, and dedication, and passive sensitivity, and serpent has passive afflictions through hypnosis.

Between the passive cures, faster attacks, and often better passive afflicting than DW has, DW does not strike me as more powerful than the others. Granted, this is in momentum vs momentum. It does not all matter as much in momentum vs prep, which could make DW a better class against prep classes than some of the other classes.

Devran

Kiet said:

yeah but no one likes jesters and no one plays them. they also can't aeon you from another room. and dont' really bring much else after hangedman nerfs. Meanwhile, occy and dw have aeon in addition to 500 other tools.

Know what'd make me like Jesters?  A complete class redesign. They're too... silly. I'd love a much darker theme.

Different kinds of masks giving different kinds of effects. Think oldschool carnival masks with different expressions giving different effects/controlling what abilities you can perform. The masks give you POWER, letting you INFLUENCE your target. Like the sad faced iconic mask that everyone's seen at least once allowing you to tug on your targets sadness/melancholic emotions to the point where they just end their own life. Other masks providing awesome flavor like buffs to you and your party like vibes/rites or whatever, cool bashing boosts. Have cruel/mean masks afflict your target/manipulating them in some manner. It'd be awesome if it had some unique status effects.

Keep the overall theme of what the nature of a Jester is, something that alters your emotions in either positive or negative ways (Court Jesters didn't just act like goofballs. THey tugged on your very heartstrings at times).

Cap it all off with one of the three class skills being called Dark Humor and fill it with the most morbid and disturbing stuff. Blacker than black. But make it powerful magic. Big big mojo.

And since it's nonfactional everyone would win. I'd play the hell out of a class like that.

Kiet

jester's not gonna be a grimdark edgelord class, you got depthswalker for that already mate

also @Farrah I was under impression curseward got the buffs it did after you quit but I might have my timeline wrong. again, though, no one's arguing you can't win as apostate, but it's nowhere near alch/bard level.

Devran

Kiet said:

jester's not gonna be a grimdark edgelord class, you got depthswalker for that already mate

also @Farrah I was under impression curseward got the buffs it did after you quit but I might have my timeline wrong. again, though, no one's arguing you can't win as apostate, but it's nowhere near alch/bard level.

If you want to compare my hypothetical what-I-think-Jesters-would-be-cool-as post and compare it to an actual class, I suppose we could... but when I actually think about it you are comparing a class that is based around manipulating time, shadows and wicked strange voice sorcery with an example concept that I explicitly moulded around emotion and Maskmagic (totally patented now). To me, they're glaringly different and unique.

EDIT: Maybe it was the way I presented it that makes it look similar? I don't know. I concede when you mention DARKNESS you think DW. But I definitely think you can have a thematically dark class that is not similar at all.

Keorin

Farrah said:

@Keorin I was using a very simplified example. There are other things that make the matchups weigh more against DW in ways that make up for all of the advantages you listed. For example, DW is the only momentum class without a passive or effectively passive heal of some kind. Serpent and Alchie can salt/shrug without stopping their offense. Bard, Occultist, Priest, Apostate all have passive cures. This makes a substantial difference in practice because everytime these can be used DW has to do an extra attack to catch back up. Then, of course, snb has smash high, not just aconite/slike, and dedication, and passive sensitivity, and serpent has passive afflictions through hypnosis.

Between the passive cures, faster attacks, and often better passive afflicting than DW has, DW does not strike me as more powerful than the others. Granted, this is in momentum vs momentum. It does not all matter as much in momentum vs prep, which could make DW a better class again prep classes than some of the other classes.

Oh, I know it was simplified, and not really accurate for serpents at all (who don't need to play with para/slick rng if they don't feel like it). But I think your examples still illustrated what seem like some of the most notable advantages of the class, and how few options there are to defend against it.

To put it another way, what defensive options are you supposed to have if a DW gets momentum going? Perhaps I'm misreading you, but it feels like you're saying that the way to handle DW is to out-hinder them with a different momentum class.

That might leave them at a fine spot in the highest levels of play, where l3 sip rings are assumed and everyone is playing their class to the fullest and is able to exploit the class' weaknesses, but I feel like at any other skill level, para/degen acts as an incredibly simple, potent option with far less options for counterplay then exist against other momentum classes, and I think that's why the class seems to frustrate plenty of people.

Xaden

Torinn said:

Can we please just make priests a legitimate support role?  I'd honestly give up offensive capabilities to do that.

How about you fuck off?

[Deleted User]

I'm happy nobody is mentioning Shaman.

Voli

Pyori said:

I'm happy nobody is mentioning Shaman.

Don't get me started about Shaman!! -rabble rabble-

Kiet

Shaman is indubitably much stronger than DW in 1v1, and strong but not as versatile in groups (no room hinder, no beckon, etc). The big difference is you can't just give shaman to a random and have them succeed at it with minimal preparation, imo, which kind of proves the point here. People don't mind strong classes if every other joe newbie isn't suddenly a threat as one.

Nazihk

If a newbie can't pick up shaman and easily learn to contribute with it, that's a problem with shaman, not a problem with depthswalker. 

Devran

Nazihk said:

If a newbie can't pick up shaman and easily learn to contribute with it, that's a problem with shaman, not a problem with depthswalker. 

I think there's a difference between contributing in a group fight, and being a thread to middle and upper combatants.

EDIT: Not weighing on on DW vs whatever. I am not a combatant. Just saying I think that's the point that's trying to be made.

Kiet

While a newbie should be able to do 'something' with shaman in groups (and they are, they have throttle for something simple), they should not be a high tier threat without getting better. For the most part, it works out this way. Shaman is a super high priority target if the shaman knows what they're doing, but I know that I personally ignore like half the shamans I see out there until we deal with other classes. If they're good, they get bumped up several priority spots. On the other hand, almost every DW is at least a moderately big threat because the offensive difference isn't really that big between a top tier and some guy that picked up the class yesterday and made 2 aliases.

Shaman is how it should be, tbh. If classes have literally no skill floor to be dangerous, then we end up in a situation where it's even more of a numbers game than it otherwise would be.

While it's important to have accessibility for newer players, this accessibility should:

1) not be almost entirely contained to one class
2) not allow someone much worse to perform at a level almost identical to someone much better. that's uninteresting. This is mostly not a problem in 1v1, as I said before, but that's largely because in 1v1 there's a lot more classes that require minimal effort to do well.

[Deleted User]

Kiet said:

While a newbie should be able to do 'something' with shaman (and they are, they have throttle for something simple), they should not be a high tier threat without getting better.

They have inflame strats, for 'simple' things that work decently well vs a lot of people. It is pretty easy to not die to though once you fight against it a few times, which is where you're absolutely gonna need to learn how to lock and use vodun. Plus it's a massive threat in groups.
Agree on less utility, though. The "good" utility they have requires a lot more micromanagement than DW's utility. And generally at quite a higher cost.

Kiet

Yeah, but I mean in groups. Inflame is still orders of magnitude more knowledge burden than spamming aeon or degen.

That said, spamming kai choke or something doesn't take much more, obviously, but we've gone over how monk pays for that in other ways.

IMO, group combat would be a lot better if every class was designed like shaman, where the only 'spam' route you had was noticeably less effective than more advanced things. That'd require redesigning every second class, though, so obviously unrealistic.

[Deleted User]

Kiet said:

Yeah, but I mean in groups. Inflame is still orders of magnitude more knowledge burden than spamming aeon or degen.

That said, spamming kai choke or something doesn't take much more, obviously, but we've gone over how monk pays for that in other ways.

IMO, group combat would be a lot better if every class was designed like shaman, where the only 'spam' route you had was noticeably less effective than more advanced things. That'd require redesigning every other class, though, so obviously unrealistic.

swiftcurse haemophilia once combat's started (maybe twice if necessary)
curse bleed invoke bloodlet
jinx bleed inflame

I dunno. That's gonna kill quite a lot of people. Depending on level of tankiness, could even just curse haemo/bloodlet -> jinx bleed inflame in the middle of a fight.

That said though, bloodlet does have a fairly lengthy cooldown (when it comes to how fast group fights tend to be), compared to DW or.. Any other burst damage, really.

Solnir

Any imp on command class (like shaman) is high priority to me in group.

Leviticus

Apostate has been buffed pretty well but curseward is still a good momentum stopper. Same thing with shaman. Well timed cursewards are good momentum stoppers.

Atalkez

Curseward effectiveness is overstated. It’s still slower than shield, and the classes it affects don’t even have to deal with rebounding. Curseward is less effective than shield against other classes.

[Deleted User]

Leviticus said:

Same thing with shaman. Well timed cursewards are good momentum stoppers.

Lol.