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Leviticus

Pyori said:

Leviticus said:

Same thing with shaman. Well timed cursewards are good momentum stoppers.

Lol.

I throw up a curseward, you breach, I walk out of the room and cure up. Momentum stopper.

Pyori

Leviticus said:

Pyori said:

Leviticus said:

Same thing with shaman. Well timed cursewards are good momentum stoppers.

Lol.

I throw up a curseward, you breach, I walk out of the room and cure up. Momentum stopper.

TIL you can walk out of the room while off balance.

Torinn

Xaden said:

Torinn said:

Can we please just make priests a legitimate support role?  I'd honestly give up offensive capabilities to do that.

How about you fuck off?

Only if you're the one doing it bby

As much as I love priest, it's somewhat in a "Jack of all trades master of none" sort of scenario when it comes to offense/defense.  It's decently strong in both, but doesnt excel in either.  I know it's unconventional, but it'd be far better if priest went one way or the other.  Serendipity pushes it further into the support role as it is.  I'll get hated on by you old time IRE players, but imagine if the meta wasn't just "lol faceroll damage and affs in group and kill other guy".  

Leviticus

Pyori said:

Leviticus said:

Pyori said:

Leviticus said:

Same thing with shaman. Well timed cursewards are good momentum stoppers.

Lol.

I throw up a curseward, you breach, I walk out of the room and cure up. Momentum stopper.

TIL you can walk out of the room while off balance.

Unless you face an automated shaman using timer's to refresh their AF logic (or smashing their one button), you tend to get a shaman who hits the curseward. That allows us to walk out. I did it to Micaelis and Eigen both.

Atalkez

Leviticus said:

Pyori said:

Leviticus said:

Same thing with shaman. Well timed cursewards are good momentum stoppers.

Lol.

I throw up a curseward, you breach, I walk out of the room and cure up. Momentum stopper.

 Breach is swift curse speed. You’re off eq and will have paralysis again before you get eq back. Might as well have just spammed movement to begin with.

Curseward is only good vs Shaman when they have a full doll, and they force you to apply a salve. Still won’t save you.

Pyori

Leviticus said:

Pyori said:

Leviticus said:

Pyori said:

Leviticus said:

Same thing with shaman. Well timed cursewards are good momentum stoppers.

Lol.

I throw up a curseward, you breach, I walk out of the room and cure up. Momentum stopper.

TIL you can walk out of the room while off balance.

Unless you face an automated shaman using timer's to refresh their AF logic (or smashing their one button), you tend to get a shaman who hits the curseward. That allows us to walk out. I did it to Micaelis and Eigen both.

You forgot the part where curseward's balance is close to triple the balance lost of hitting into curseward. Also the part where breach is about 1/6th of curseward's balance.

The two you cited as apparently good Shamans, is about as credible as saying you beat Tahquil 1v1 by shielding a few times.

Leviticus

Atalkez said:

Curseward effectiveness is overstated. It’s still slower than shield, and the classes it affects don’t even have to deal with rebounding. Curseward is less effective than shield against other classes.

Shaman has the benefit of afflicting breaches faster than Apostate so the effectiveness is decreased with shaman but still effective against both classes with smart cursewards and waiting for them to either hit it or breach it until you start your momentum again. Seragorn, Antonious and Ashmond used it against me pretty effectively. Since I play both classes, it is effective. Of course it is not effective as shield but still can fine for defensive purposes.

Leviticus

Pyori said:

Leviticus said:

Pyori said:

Leviticus said:

Pyori said:

Leviticus said:

Same thing with shaman. Well timed cursewards are good momentum stoppers.

Lol.

I throw up a curseward, you breach, I walk out of the room and cure up. Momentum stopper.

TIL you can walk out of the room while off balance.

Unless you face an automated shaman using timer's to refresh their AF logic (or smashing their one button), you tend to get a shaman who hits the curseward. That allows us to walk out. I did it to Micaelis and Eigen both.

You forgot the part where curseward's balance is close to triple the balance lost of hitting into curseward. Also the part where breach is about 1/6th of curseward's balance.

The two you cited as apparently good Shamans, is about as credible as saying you beat Tahquil 1v1 by shielding a few times.

I never said they were good, you implied that. On that note who is the standard Shaman because I don't see a lot of them around, especially not in the 1v1 environment. 

Pyori

Leviticus said:

and waiting for them to either hit it or breach it until you start your momentum again.

Except you're not gonna get balance back before they do. You can hit into curseward, breach and STILL get balance back before the person who cursewarded does. God fucking help you if they stuck confusion on you first.

If they breach it immediately, they're gonna get at least two curses off before you get balance back. Likely three or four, if they're swiftcursing by the time you start cursewarding.

Someone using the argument of "It must be a good stopper, because it stopped me," and applying that as a blanket statement of obviously being a good stopper to the class as a whole... Is an exceptionally silly argument to make.

Leviticus said:

I never said they were good, you implied that.

You used them to try and back your argument. That automatically implies you think they're good. That's how evidencing things works.

Leviticus

Pyori said:

Leviticus said:

and waiting for them to either hit it or breach it until you start your momentum again.

Except you're not gonna get balance back before they do. You can hit into curseward, breach and STILL get balance back before the person who cursewarded does. God fucking help you if they stuck confusion on you first.

If they breach it immediately, they're gonna get at least two curses off before you get balance back. Likely three or four, if they're swiftcursing by the time you start cursewarding.

Someone using the argument of "It must be a good stopper, because it stopped me," and applying that as a blanket statement of obviously being a good stopper to the class as a whole... Is an exceptionally silly argument to make.

Leviticus said:

I never said they were good, you implied that.

You used them to try and back your argument. That automatically implies you think they're good. That's how evidencing things works.

Sorry I forgot you are just the best combatant and have tested everything and anything related to combat. My bad....

Pyori

Leviticus said:

Sorry I forgot you are just the best combatant and have tested everything and anything related to combat. My bad....

Don't need to test everything, to know cursing (and certainly breaching) is significantly faster then cursewarding.

I rather succinctly explained how, and why you're wrong. No need to get pissy and snarky about it.

Atalkez

@Amranu easily when it comes to Shaman. After curseward change to not be used prone, I never found it to be worthwhile except in certain scenarios like I mentioned.

Cooper

You guys are being pretty obtuse here. Curseward is situationally good to use, and can definitely stop the moment of an Apostate or Shaman temporarily.

Farrah

Leviticus said:

Atalkez said:

Curseward effectiveness is overstated. It’s still slower than shield, and the classes it affects don’t even have to deal with rebounding. Curseward is less effective than shield against other classes.

Of course it is not effective as shield but still can fine for defensive purposes.

...this is literally the only thing that matters to the point being made originally. People keep saying Apostate is the worst momentum class because of curseward when it's not.

Minifie

For a thread about classleads, there sure is a lot of dick waving going on around here.

CLASSLEAD PROBLEM Far too much sword fighting without actual swords. pls fix.

Elisella

Let's get this discussion back on track.

I think DW has a crucial hole in its offense, namely, it cannot prepare limbs. Obviously, if the DW or its target leaves the room, the DW loses all of its progress in killing the opponent. This is unacceptable.

Solution: A new instill called "Frailty". By instilling this, the DW can deal damage to an opponent's limbs. If used under timeloop, the damage is also inflicted to the opposite limb.

However, there needs to be a way to take advantage of the limb prep, otherwise, DWs would be no better off than using Shatter.

Solution: If the DW has an opponent with four crippled limbs simultaneously, they can CHRONO CROSS and instantly tear them asunder. If boosted, it only requires three limbs.

Voila. DW would be balanced against limb damage classes that can maintain their prep after leaving the room, and also on parity with Necromancers who can win by whoring limb damage or salve stacking. It's balanced because the DW has to use their age to boost the ability and also has to contend with the very slow speed of a scythe.

Thoughts?

Adrik

Did. Did you just suggest giving Depthswalkers Vivisect.. but with only 3 limbs?

Voli

My response is the same I had when I discovered the mechanics behind a Boosted Doom.

(edit) Make the instill only work when using Cull and you've got me sold!

Farrah

Elisella said:

Let's get this discussion back on track.

I think DW has a crucial hole in its offense, namely, it cannot prepare limbs. Obviously, if the DW or its target leaves the room, the DW loses all of its progress in killing the opponent. This is unacceptable.

Solution: A new instill called "Frailty". By instilling this, the DW can deal damage to an opponent's limbs. If used under timeloop, the damage is also inflicted to the opposite limb.

However, there needs to be a way to take advantage of the limb prep, otherwise, DWs would be no better off than using Shatter.

Solution: If the DW has an opponent with four crippled limbs simultaneously, they can CHRONO CROSS and instantly tear them asunder. If boosted, it only requires three limbs.

Voila. DW would be balanced against limb damage classes that can maintain their prep after leaving the room, and also on parity with Necromancers who can win by whoring limb damage or salve stacking. It's balanced because the DW has to use their age to boost the ability and also has to contend with the very slow speed of a scythe.

Thoughts?

This would solve the problem of vivisect being factionalized, but puts Mhaldor at a slight disadvantage since they still do not have priest healing. To fix this, we can add CHRONO TIMEWARP <aff> to targeted heal a specific aff. Boosted would be balanceless. I think that'd solve the issue.

Minifie

also distort now summons tentacles, and each time the Dwalker lands a killing blow a random sentinel and occultist entity is summoned to their aid.

Pyori

Give Depthswalker noose/dart traps too, just to make it fair towards Eleusis. Can be boosted to have double the writhe time, or double the firing rate of the darts.

Torinn

Giving DW even more utility seems like a poor solution to me.  At that point everyone should just be DW because it does everything that every other class can do anyways.  I agree there should be more supportive healing than just priest for sure.  It puts priest in a tough spot to balance because they're the only ones currently.  However, I think the real solution is to introduce it to more classes that aren't DW.  Apostate, for one.  Make it so priest heals are superior, or move priests away from having healing as a "benefit".  

Aegoth

Who needs Titan CTFs when DW exists?

Elisella

Oh, I also forgot that DW doesn't have meaningful LoS.

Enter...SHADOW DOUBLE.

If your target is in line of sight AND darkness, you can command your shadow double to assail them with either REAP, CULL, TIMELOOP, PARADOX, or AEON. Since it's your shadow and not you, the shadow will instantly die if it hits Deliverance/Nova, sparing you.

Acceptable counterplay would be to kill the shadow or have a Mage CAST LIGHT, thereby banishing any shadow doubles in the room. I originally figured the Sun tarot would be a good counterplay, but that's solely locked to one and a half factions and honestly, nobody likes it when only one faction can deal with another faction's abilities.

Thoughts?

Torinn

Not good enough.  Depthswalkers should have the ability to LoS but also cast shadows around corners, and indoors, up to three rooms away.  LoS with cataclysm but better.  If they're in a straight line from you the shadow can choke them for 50% hp damage like Kai choke. 

Elisella

Farrah said:

Elisella said:

Let's get this discussion back on track.

I think DW has a crucial hole in its offense, namely, it cannot prepare limbs. Obviously, if the DW or its target leaves the room, the DW loses all of its progress in killing the opponent. This is unacceptable.

Solution: A new instill called "Frailty". By instilling this, the DW can deal damage to an opponent's limbs. If used under timeloop, the damage is also inflicted to the opposite limb.

However, there needs to be a way to take advantage of the limb prep, otherwise, DWs would be no better off than using Shatter.

Solution: If the DW has an opponent with four crippled limbs simultaneously, they can CHRONO CROSS and instantly tear them asunder. If boosted, it only requires three limbs.

Voila. DW would be balanced against limb damage classes that can maintain their prep after leaving the room, and also on parity with Necromancers who can win by whoring limb damage or salve stacking. It's balanced because the DW has to use their age to boost the ability and also has to contend with the very slow speed of a scythe.

Thoughts?

This would solve the problem of vivisect being factionalized, but puts Mhaldor at a slight disadvantage since they still do not have priest healing. To fix this, we can add CHRONO TIMEWARP <aff> to targeted heal a specific aff. Boosted would be balanceless. I think that'd solve the issue.

I'm taking a different tack than Mhaldorians. Whereas everyone else thinks DW is overtuned, I don't think it properly encompasses all the elements needed for a good class. If we're going based off of flavor, the tsol'teth had centuries to study and watch us, allowing them to take ideas and incorporate them into their arts. I want to fill in those gaps that they might have missed.

Basically, I want to see DW as so good of a class that the only reason to be anything else is RP, thereby inadvertently assuring tsol'teth domination of Sapience.

Lenn

I have a solution to all of your depthswalker hate.

Tsol'teth conquer Achaea, adventurers are forced to become part-tsol'teth, now everyone is a depthswalker.

Farrah

Hail Tlalalala!

Makarios

One thing I've got from this thread is that I missed an opportunity to add chrono cross and chrono trigger to Aeonics. That's fairly tragic.

Lenn

@Makarios I don't see why you couldn't sneak them in during a classlead.