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Torinn

Yeah but like if you have 6 people in the group youre attacking, that's 3 people every 5 seconds!

Aegoth

yea ok if peopleare gonna be sitting in holos, one magi can do that

Pyori

Aegoth said:

yea ok if peopleare gonna be sitting in holos, one magi can do that

Sounds like Magi needs nerfing, then amiright?

Atalkez

Aegoth said:

Farrah said:

Aegoth said:

Farrah said:

Aegoth, for example, is arguing DW is OP while simultaneously stating that he doesn't lose to them. You have to question why that is.

because when I' m getting 100-0'd in under 4s in a small group skirmish just from 2-3 depthswalkers pressing loldegen, it's a bit ridiculous. I don't think that's going out on a huge limb to say

Like Ajoc said, degen damage is only actually high for a single DW in a group fight, and even for that DW, is only really really high if they also have your shadow. In massive group fights where multiple people are damage attacking you, any group of classes (that have such damage attacks) will kill you. You would actually take more damage if a single DW degened you along with a monk Kai choking and a Magi staffcasting or bard accentatoing (or whatever else). The additional DW only do about 15% per hit, which isn't super high.

But you also seemed to specifically be saying they were OP in 1v1 before, which can't be based on how they do in groups.

I've had DWs with lv 2 scythe hit me for way more than a mere 15% consistently in groups that had multiple DWs. You are grossly downplaying the amount of damage DW does, begause it's definitrly not "negligible". There's a reason why Targ rolls around with 5 DWs in their groups slaughtering swaths of victims, let's be real. Let's not forget that psychic resist is pretty nonexistent

We've already tested this. The extra DW's aren't doing inordinate damage in comparison to what other classes can do. A single DW is going to do similar damage to what a DwC knight is doing, if they don't have you attuned or have your shadow. As mentioned already, only one DW can Attune at a time - which means only one DW is going to do the big damage spikes. Everything else is going to be similar to what normal classes can output. 

The reason Targ rolls heavy with DW is because our factional classes suck in comparison, and DW is A+ utility. Plus Aeon.

Has nothing to do with "we do so much damage this way".

Farrah

Yeah, I'm not sure what to tell you @Aegoth . We specifically tested this and disproved it the last time it came up on forums. And Targ doesn't even go for damage. We aeonlock. DW is a great class. That doesn't mean it does insane damage in groups.

Puxi

All other classes that are considered a "utility" class give up many of the other aspects (not just in Achaea, but in all games). I think that's why there is some questions around the class make up. that there is seemingly no downside to a class that has nearly everything you would want, including high damage output.

Honest question, was the class designed to be a Jack of All Trades, Master of None with a low barrier to artefact/combat experience entry?

Pyori

Puxi said:

Honest question, was the class designed to be a Jack of All Trades, Master of None with a low barrier to artefact/combat experience entry?

Yes.

Armali

Yes. It was also designed to disperse faction only advantages because @Makarios isn't a fan of faction gating.

Farrah

Puxi said:

All other classes that are considered a "utility" class give up many of the other aspects (not just in Achaea, but in all games). I think that's why there is some questions around the class make up. that there is seemingly no downside to a class that has nearly everything you would want, including high damage output.

Honest question, was the class designed to be a Jack of All Trades, Master of None with a low barrier to artefact/combat experience entry?

It was designed to balance out Occultist, which is equally good at everything , while also giving Ashtan a few things it didn't have either. It's much better to have a neutral class that does this than to limit it to a single faction.

Though, I've already said it has many downsides. It has no prep route. It kills slower than many momentum classes. It doesn't have passive curing. It doesn't have great damage stacking for multiple DW. It has no real ranged attack. Distort doesn't last as long as piety/gravehands. And many classes have unique, game-changing abilities that DW doesn't have: retardation, grounding destab, nairat salve strats, instant disabler/bite setups like battlecry, hangedman/impale, and the list goes on.

Not all classes are equal in group combat, and they never have been, but it isn't as if DW is the only class worth playing now, and DW did a lot to balance out factional disparities that were just stupid. It is infinitely better for everyone to have the option of "go DW" when they hate their factional than to have some sides just suck due to class imbalances.

Puxi

Pyori said:

Puxi said:

Honest question, was the class designed to be a Jack of All Trades, Master of None with a low barrier to artefact/combat experience entry?

Yes.

In my opinion, I think they've nailed the low barrier to artefact/combat experience entry (which is awesome). I'm not sure if they've quite hit the nail on the head on the utility end being balanced with all the options they have. At the same time, I'm cognizant that I don't have proposed solutions to the problem, therefore, I regress  

Kiet

The issue is that in a group of DWs it's trivial to get a shadow and degen capstone, so it's like having a guaranteed bbt every time you walk in (which generally requires more planning to set up unless your ping is 5ms and also requires your supports to generally not be doing direct damage AND afflictions). That means that a group of dw's just mashes one alias and one of them gets their finisher in no time. Meanwhile, the other dw's sacrificed nothing to get there, because they're still doing their main attack which does both damage and afflictions.

Ultimately, I don't know if DW is 'overpowered' or not. But it suffers the same issue that many other classes in many games have. It's a class with low risk/effort/skill, high reward, and that's really frustrating to fight against. People don't like losing to people who are categorically 'worse' than them, less skilled, less experienced, etc., at least not in scenarios where they didn't get caught off guard, outflanked, or what have you.

DW has an absurdly low skill floor, requires no artefacts to be effective, and is extremely dangerous (in groups, mostly, but in 1v1 it's pretty good too). This means Joe Newbie who has spent 0 time (or money, which some people value just as much, though imo money obv shouldn't even play a factor) can be almost as effective as someone with years of experience and thousands of dollars of arties.

Yes, it's good for newbies to be able to engage in combat. But the difference is that newbies in other artefact-independent classes have to at least learn some kind of mechanics, and the classes have room for error. DW is pretty impossible to screw up as, in comparison.

This is an argument that comes up in lots of games, like I said before. It's been like a heated thing for a rl year now in overwatch, it's happened in wow arena when cleave comps just mashed one button to do absurd damage, etc. Having classes where it takes much more effort to defend against it than it does to be dangerous at it is inherently frustrating. This has often been the case with damage classes, of course, especially back when arties were a lot more brokenly powerful. Depthswalker is just the newest iteration of this, and doesn't even require arties.

Voli

I just wanted to mention, stealing a shadow takes attuning degen, 5 curare reaps with leach instilled, and 1 loop boosted leap, at minimum. I know this because that's generally as far as I get before I instill Degen and hope that I don't die before they drop below 50% for my mutilate/tooros bomb.

At least, if you're curing without using class cures.

So that's like.. what.. 12-ish seconds where the depthswalker is literally doing nothing but paralysis to hinder your offense, just to do a damage kill.

I know I'm a noob, but I had to duel a Syssin as a DW and I got absolutely trashed... and they admitted that they were still learning their class. 12 seconds is a long time to just prep for the actual fight. And that is all assuming there is 0 hinder, as well, because then it'd take even longer to get the shadow.

I can't contribute on any other kill route, though. Not having the Arti dagger means that I have to sacrifice momentum just to switch my focus, so whatever I attune at first tends to determine what I'll be doing. Degen = damage. (Also, I can't really survive long enough without the clumsiness and paralysis that instilled degen/curare gives me.)

Kiet

12 seconds is long prep time now? If knights could prep legs plus torso in 12 seconds they'd be pretty thrilled, lol.

Voli

This is all without the opponent fighting back. I've fought Knights and it is terrifying. They hit you insanely hard while you're just hoping to god you can get their shadow so you can run away, recover, and come at them with full degen hinder.

Pyori

Sol 1. ?????
Sol 2. Delete Farrah
Sol 3. Delete Mhaldor

Kiet

Are you under the impression DW is more hindered than other classes while 'prepping'? Knights have to deal with everything DW does, plus rebounding. And if they could prep their finisher in 12 seconds everyone would be a knight.

Obviously, DSB is a better finisher than DW damage route is, but to say that 12 seconds to prep while giving curare is somehow bad is ridiculous.

Farrah

I'd be pretty happy if a group of DWs went for damage against me rather than aeoning. I really have a hard time grasping the complaint compared to what I regularly get rekt by and personally find frustrating to face.

Aeon itself is certainly a low skill mechanic, mind you, but that's where we go back to factional balance. It's far more aggravating to lose to something your team doesn't have than it is to lose to something you can do back.

Shadow prep is not real prep. It's momentum "prep." Knights don't need momentum to prep in the same way. It's not really worth comparing.

Though, @Voli your attune shouldn't really be forcing you to damage strat. Degen attune works fine with any strat. It provides hinder for you, which always helps. 

Kiet

Farrah said:

I'd be pretty happy if a group of DWs went for damage against me rather than aeoning. I really have a hard time grasping the complaint compared to what I regularly get rekt by and personally find frustrating to face.

Aeon itself is certainly a low skill mechanic, mind you, but that's where we go back to factional balance. It's far more aggravating to lose to something your team doesn't have than it is to lose to something you can do back.

Aeon is just as/more absurd, but I wanted to discuss just one absurd thing here at a time. You're right, though, depthswalker is full of low skill and high reward strats. Aeon, their damage strats, dictate in groups, the list goes on forever.

Which just proves my point that the class is frustratingly designed (and I'd say the design is ultimately flawed, tbh, other competitive games try to avoid this to some extent). That everyone has access to it doesn't make it any less so. Everyone in wow could play physical cleave comps but that didn't mean people didn't find it a terrible meta.

Should really start by deleting the aeon aff, though, or leaving it only for vodun/puppetry.

Voli

@kiet 12 seconds doesn't prep their finisher. It gets you their Shadow so you can BEGIN on your kill route. It still takes a chunk of time to just reach degen capstone if your opponent isn't just standing there staring. By that time, a Knight can have the Depthswalker's legs broken and them prone (depending on spec), which means their momentum is at 0 and the Knight can reset their Degeneration progress.

I've fought a Sword and Shield knight and I have a roughly 50% chance to win the fight before they have me proned and dead. The other 50% has them exploding in a shower of gore. I'm pretty sure they can outpace my degeneration capstone, now. (Cause they are a better fighter than I am, lol)

Puxi

Farrah said:

I'd be pretty happy if a group of DWs went for damage against me rather than aeoning. I really have a hard time grasping the complaint compared to what I regularly get rekt by and personally find frustrating to face.

Aeon itself is certainly a low skill mechanic, mind you, but that's where we go back to factional balance. It's far more aggravating to lose to something your team doesn't have than it is to lose to something you can do back.

I purposefully stayed away from the DW aeon bullshit since I know it is a recognized problem that is (hopefully) being addressed... especially after burst. The damage in combination with the smart afflicting is what makes me twitch sometimes, not everyone is as slippery as you!

What do you mean by your comment of "compared to what I regularly get rekt by"? I've a hard time believing you get regularly rekt, but I've not had much time to play with a mini-me around (no, not a Minifie, screw that guy ) 

Farrah

Kiet said:

Farrah said:

I'd be pretty happy if a group of DWs went for damage against me rather than aeoning. I really have a hard time grasping the complaint compared to what I regularly get rekt by and personally find frustrating to face.

Aeon itself is certainly a low skill mechanic, mind you, but that's where we go back to factional balance. It's far more aggravating to lose to something your team doesn't have than it is to lose to something you can do back.

Aeon is just as/more absurd, but I wanted to discuss just one absurd thing here at a time. You're right, though, depthswalker is full of low skill and high reward strats. Aeon, their damage strats, dictate in groups, the list goes on forever.

Which just proves my point that the class is frustratingly designed (and I'd say the design is ultimately flawed, tbh, other competitive games try to avoid this to some extent). That everyone has access to it doesn't make it any less so. Everyone in wow could play physical cleave comps but that didn't mean people didn't find it a terrible meta.

Should really start by deleting the aeon aff, though, or leaving it only for vodun/puppetry.

I mean, if we could delete all factionals and DW, I'd be perfectly content. Fighting Occultist is by far the most aggravating thing to me, and is just as ez-mode.

Room damage: spam chaos rays
Damage: spam warp/hound
Affliction locks: spam aeon
Damage and locks: just Truename

DW was a huge relief.

Kiet

Voli said:

@kiet 12 seconds doesn't prep their finisher. It gets you their Shadow so you can BEGIN on your kill route. It still takes a chunk of time to just reach degen capstone if your opponent isn't just standing there staring. By that time, a Knight can have the Depthswalker's legs broken and them prone (depending on spec), which means their momentum is at 0 and the Knight can reset their Degeneration progress.

I've fought a Sword and Shield knight and I have a roughly 50% chance to win the fight before they have me proned and dead. The other 50% has them exploding in a shower of gore. I'm pretty sure they can outpace my degeneration capstone, now. (Cause they are a better fighter than I am, lol)

I don't know what to tell you other than every momentum class is getting at least one shot (and frequently several) at finishing before snb is even close to finished with prepping. That's including Depthswalker.

If you're getting outpaced in a straight fight (assuming he's not slow prepping) then the knight is just massively out of your skill level, in which case using it as an example for class balance isn't really very productive. If anything, the fact you're winning 50% of the time despite that says a lot about DW's skill floor in that case. If he's slow prepping you, then welcome to life as a momentum class in a game that heavily favours slow prep.

Kiet

Farrah said:

Kiet said:

Farrah said:

I'd be pretty happy if a group of DWs went for damage against me rather than aeoning. I really have a hard time grasping the complaint compared to what I regularly get rekt by and personally find frustrating to face.

Aeon itself is certainly a low skill mechanic, mind you, but that's where we go back to factional balance. It's far more aggravating to lose to something your team doesn't have than it is to lose to something you can do back.

Aeon is just as/more absurd, but I wanted to discuss just one absurd thing here at a time. You're right, though, depthswalker is full of low skill and high reward strats. Aeon, their damage strats, dictate in groups, the list goes on forever.

Which just proves my point that the class is frustratingly designed (and I'd say the design is ultimately flawed, tbh, other competitive games try to avoid this to some extent). That everyone has access to it doesn't make it any less so. Everyone in wow could play physical cleave comps but that didn't mean people didn't find it a terrible meta.

Should really start by deleting the aeon aff, though, or leaving it only for vodun/puppetry.

I mean, if we could delete all factionals and DW, I'd be perfectly content. Fighting Occultist is by far the most aggravating thing to me, and is just as ez-mode.

Room damage: spam chaos rays
Damage: spam warp/hound
Affliction locks: spam aeon
Damage and locks: just Truename

DW was a huge relief.

No argument there, occultist is by far the most annoying and powerful factional class. I just don't see that as a justification for DW's existence, DW is just a bandaid that partially masks how broken occultist is and now means we all have to deal with aeon even if we pretend ashtan doesn't exist.

Antonius

Puxi said:

All other classes that are considered a "utility" class give up many of the other aspects (not just in Achaea, but in all games).

I don't give a shit about other games. Why do you think this is how things work in Achaea?

Aegoth

Aeon was never faction-locked in the first place. Jesters have always had it

Kiet

yeah but no one likes jesters and no one plays them. they also can't aeon you from another room. and dont' really bring much else after hangedman nerfs. Meanwhile, occy and dw have aeon in addition to 500 other tools.

Atalkez

Kiet said:

The issue is that in a group of DWs it's trivial to get a shadow and degen capstone, so it's like having a guaranteed bbt every time you walk in (which generally requires more planning to set up unless your ping is 5ms and also requires your supports to generally not be doing direct damage AND afflictions). That means that a group of dw's just mashes one alias and one of them gets their finisher in no time. Meanwhile, the other dw's sacrificed nothing to get there, because they're still doing their main attack which does both damage and afflictions.

Somewhat wrong here. Let's say you have three DW. Only one of them can Attune. If they want to get shadow to do the big damage, then they are using Leach - which means they aren't helping the other DWs progress the degen strat. If they boost loop to steal shadow, then swap to degen - again, they're the only one that is benefitting from the big damage. Every other DW is either doing para/damage capstone OR aff/para (which doesn't do as much damage bc not capstone. To hit capstone they have to have paralysis). So technically, once capstone is reached, if they want to do damage then every DW is doing a single affliction (paralysis). To me, this is really the same exact scenario that 3 knights can abuse with curare/kelps into sensitivity dsl's. It's similar in terms of time to maximum output, and is just as repeatable. It's absolutely nothing like a bbt, which can be spammed just as easily with less prep.

Ultimately, I don't know if DW is 'overpowered' or not. But it suffers the same issue that many other classes in many games have. It's a class with low risk/effort/skill, high reward, and that's really frustrating to fight against. People don't like losing to people who are categorically 'worse' than them, less skilled, less experienced, etc., at least not in scenarios where they didn't get caught off guard, outflanked, or what have you.

DW has an absurdly low skill floor, requires no artefacts to be effective, and is extremely dangerous (in groups, mostly, but in 1v1 it's pretty good too). This means Joe Newbie who has spent 0 time (or money, which some people value just as much, though imo money obv shouldn't even play a factor) can be almost as effective as someone with years of experience and thousands of dollars of arties.

Yes, that is what the class was designed to do - and it serves that role extremely well. It was intended to be an easy-to-grasp class, with lots of utility/augments built in to reduce the investment burden. The class offers the ability to contribute in meaningful ways, that isn't faction locked, and doesn't require a massive investment. The artefacts were designed to add extra benefit - not directly buff the offense (through speed upgrades like Thoth), which has worked great as well.

Yes, it's good for newbies to be able to engage in combat. But the difference is that newbies in other artefact-independent classes have to at least learn some kind of mechanics, and the classes have room for error. DW is pretty impossible to screw up as, in comparison.

I disagree with this. It's really no different than a knight spamming curare/prefarar on every combo without knowing what those venoms even do. A DW has to learn the same things a knight has to in terms of venom application/management - while also dealing with the nuances of the instills and being able to swap between them fluidly. It's a bit disingenuous to say they have it easier than other classes without reviewing the kit available. It's a lot easier to explain to a serpent how to lock than it is to explain to a DW how to move instills around, which venoms work with which instill, and what the instills progressive affs do and all of that. 

This is an argument that comes up in lots of games, like I said before. It's been like a heated thing for a rl year now in overwatch, it's happened in wow arena when cleave comps just mashed one button to do absurd damage, etc. Having classes where it takes much more effort to defend against it than it does to be dangerous at it is inherently frustrating. This has often been the case with damage classes, of course, especially back when arties were a lot more brokenly powerful. Depthswalker is just the newest iteration of this, and doesn't even require arties.

Kiet said:

Aeon is just as/more absurd, but I wanted to discuss just one absurd thing here at a time. You're right, though, depthswalker is full of low skill and high reward strats. Aeon, their damage strats, dictate in groups, the list goes on forever.

Which just proves my point that the class is frustratingly designed (and I'd say the design is ultimately flawed, tbh, other competitive games try to avoid this to some extent). That everyone has access to it doesn't make it any less so. Everyone in wow could play physical cleave comps but that didn't mean people didn't find it a terrible meta.

Should really start by deleting the aeon aff, though, or leaving it only for vodun/puppetry.

I can agree with this at least. Aeon is a nice ability to have, as it's extremely powerful. I do think it's too widespread, now, but that was the original intention to adding it to DW. Balance it's availability across the factions. If we were to do this, it would absolutely have to be pulled from every class except shaman/jester puppets.

Voli said:

@kiet 12 seconds doesn't prep their finisher. It gets you their Shadow so you can BEGIN on your kill route. It still takes a chunk of time to just reach degen capstone if your opponent isn't just standing there staring. By that time, a Knight can have the Depthswalker's legs broken and them prone (depending on spec), which means their momentum is at 0 and the Knight can reset their Degeneration progress.

I've fought a Sword and Shield knight and I have a roughly 50% chance to win the fight before they have me proned and dead. The other 50% has them exploding in a shower of gore. I'm pretty sure they can outpace my degeneration capstone, now. (Cause they are a better fighter than I am, lol)

Yeah, this makes sense if they use Dedication and stick clumsiness on you often. That said, if they are using Dedication, you should swap to mana drain strategies because it has a ramping effect where each successive use consumes more resources than the previous use.

Puxi

Antonius said:

Puxi said:

All other classes that are considered a "utility" class give up many of the other aspects (not just in Achaea, but in all games).

I don't give a shit about other games. Why do you think this is how things work in Achaea?

So wait, you think that one class should have access to all the major utility, access to high damage and have little to no downside? 

That's pretty much how balancing a class works with game theory design in mind.

Atalkez

Puxi said:

Antonius said:

Puxi said:

All other classes that are considered a "utility" class give up many of the other aspects (not just in Achaea, but in all games).

I don't give a shit about other games. Why do you think this is how things work in Achaea?

So wait, you think that one class should have access to all the major utility, access to high damage and have little to no downside? 

That's pretty much how balancing a class works with game theory design in mind.

??? You literally just described Occultist.

Depthswalker was released to bridge the gap between Occultist and everything else. Occultist is still better than DW in nearly every way, except that to maximize you have to spend quite a lot more to reach maximum output vs DW.

Brenex

Yes, that is what the class was designed to do - and it serves that role extremely well. It was intended to be an easy-to-grasp class, with lots of utility/augments built in to reduce the investment burden. The class offers the ability to contribute in meaningful ways, that isn't faction locked, and doesn't require a massive investment. The artefacts were designed to add extra benefit - not directly buff the offense (through speed upgrades like Thoth), which has worked great as well.

As a new player, the reason I am sticking around is because of the research I did with respect to what would be the most friendly, cost-effective class for a new player. This has really been solidified by the things like:

Leviticus said:

Two problems I see. The first I am also guilty of.

2. Through promotions and more people moving over to Achaea from other dead MUDs people have become numb to how much artefacts really cost. They also have no clue the cost to the player or have certain feelings about people who do have massive amounts of artefacts without giving consideration to how much REAL MONEY they spent on those artefacts. I have an escrow around 60K and that doesn't include some of the talismans and other things. Yes, I am supposed to have an advantage in PvE and PvP over someone who doesn't have artefacts or the same as me. If that comes in the form of higher damage, so be it. In order to achieve that damage, you have to have at least spent 1,119.99 dollars just for L3 stars and flails. That price tag isn't something to laugh at. That is a house payment for most people.
...
The problem with those games is that I haven't paid upwards of 80K (real life money people) for the bonuses and benefits provided in Achaea.

It's 2018, if you want new players to come and actually retain them, I'd think those would be nice features of a class.