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Comments
Also I'm pretty sure Farrah's comment about was momentum was because you can just hit untargeted doublewhirls to gain momentum, without sacrificing any of your prep. It is trivial once you're prepped. The window is fully in the infernal's hands at that point, it's just a matter of when they wanna pull the trigger.
Some Infernals ignore the fact that it's a fork and don't use all the class's potential.
You need a trivial amount of momentum to pull off the fork because full momentum is a trivial amount of momentum with the lvl 3s in particular. You get there in 8-9 seconds (10-11 unartied?). Most momentum classes require more than 8-9 or even 10-11 seconds to possibly kill you, so once they are prepped, their only option is to stop fighting for 3 minutes until limbs reset, or let you kill them.
Edit: Tekura monk is extremely viable currently! Has Jhui really been forgotten already? BM wasn't really nerfed as far as I can remember. It's always struggled with a certain defense/artie combo.
You named the best or one of the best combatants in the game. Tekura monk is still good but it used to be a beast with all the artefacts. I haven't played nor seen it played (besides Atalkez) after the clumsiness roll-back. BM was too strong and then brought back into "balance" with infuse changes. Two problems with BM is with accuracy which is being fixed and the set up and execution of brokenstar.
DwB Infernal will be brought in line, I am sure. We will see what happens. I am interested in what the Achaea team will come up with that doesn't completely neuter it across the three classes (Infernal, Runie and Paladin)
Pulp by itself is extremely strong as a finisher, because the window is very large. With full weapons, you have time to leap around a wall, raze rebounding, and still secure a Pulp. That's not realistic in comparison to other prep classes where tumbling away is largely the counter. When you add in the ability to fork into Vivi, it's even worse on having a secured kill, since a head break first with numbed arms effectively is a death sentence. Apply to head, vivi. Apply to arms or legs to try to stop vivi, go into pulp execution. It's the only class that has this interaction in it's kit, when looking at this particular spec.
Personally, I'd like to move away from buying more speed across the board. Increase damage, increase accuracy, but keep the speed the same as a forged person. This would make balancing timing a lot easier imo. If you notice, most of the classes lately are designed like this. You can increase how potent the class is, but not how fast it is. That's the better setup to me.
Edit: @Puxi absolutely. Shikudo has paralysis, clumsiness and lethargy plus limb breaks. There's no real reason Shikudo should lose to DwB in most cases. I could probably do it, it would be entirely a prep race. The main difference is that he could survive the damage on his side, while I couldn't, once proned. Fullplate vs leather. That's assuming he just did Pulp and I actually had a chance to cure around the setup and kaiheal etc. If he forked the Vivi, which breaks arms, it's entirely a prep race since I'd die to the damage without kaihael.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
I'm sure Tek monk can beat DWB. It's just a prep race. I'd rather be Tek monk than a momentum class against it, which is what really suffers imo (if they play optimally). You get slow prepped and then unstoppably killed. Something has to give there. Give up defense and risk dying or lose the unstoppable kill so both sides can live on.
[ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]
As for the damage, it's just damage, it gives flails a use, it's a longer execution sequence, has more room for counterplay, and is possible to outright tank in the right classes. I don't have a strong opinion on its average for success as minor tweaks aren't a big deal, but I am glad it's not designed to execute like a pulp replica.
Just joking. I just need to parry better.
To even prep for both you have to have all 5 limbs fully preped (guaranteed kill for any and every prep class last i checked), then to execute you need a minimum of 7 out of 8 momentum points (very difficult to do against aff and other momentum classes) then you have to execute around clumsiness so you actually hit. How the dwb player initiates the chain odviously tells which he is going for.. there is no fork just preparation for both.
And 99% of people dont not have flexible dynamics to there system to handle change so what may seem like a "fork" is me just basing my kill path on how i know your going to cure.
I too am eagerly awaiting these upcoming changes... this class is so controversial now. I hope it gets some more functionality so i can use it more than just 1 on 1 scenarios.
It can also have custom kill lines and unique kill paths based off the stance you want to initiate it from, or something.
Doya lets you use the easiest kill path, because it's a useless stance.. so you'll never be able to reach it except to troll people.
Most prep classes cannot 100% unstoppably kill, no, and requiring five body parts prepped as DWB is not exactly a long, drawn-out prep. The class preps quickly.
Their flail damage path isn't quite as bad, but is still pretty rediculous if you don't have a full defensive artie set to survive it. It can fully prep in some five combos at the slowest, and takes something like 3 momentum to start, for a damage setup that's nearly unavoidable. As a moderately-artifacted monk against forged flails, I usually need to maelstrom and build kai just to have enough heals to survive the setup, I still regularly don't, and that's -if- they don't slip in arm breaks.
At the highest levels, it's definitely pulp that's pretty absurd, but DWB is easily the worst offender at turning artifact disparities or lower-leveled player's health levels into mechanically unwinnable fights, because of stuff like this.
Doesn't help that dwb kai gain is weird, and isn't increased by kai boost as much as other attacks. When it only takes them a few doublewhrils of prep to get you, you're just not always gunna have the kai heals you need to live through 4 flail hits, two of which get the prone+broken limb bonus, and 2 assault torsos to top it off.
Shhh. I think I know what you're getting at and it makes me even sadder. Nobody has ever done that to me though so the fork makes it worse.
Proficy brings his shield crashing down onto your sternum, stunning you!
literally unplayable
And against certain classes it is terribly long. Some people with good parrying and affection pressure can get a timed reset.
On people submitting reports aggressively for classes they don't/haven't played. I make no illusions about the classlead process: its not a democracy. If I think your report is heavy handed (most nerfs are), they get rejected. I am very careful when nerfing classes because really, being nerfed sucks, particularly if you know the nerf is specifically about you. This is why downgrades tend to be incremental rather than sweeping. In addition, I generally believe sweeping nerfs to be lazy, because major nerfs solve the problem the easiest (in the short term), while also causing the most damage to the most important aspect of the game: the degree of fun it is to play. Now, all that said, people who don't play a class still get to submit concerns. We have a lot of very informed people playing Achaea, and their class(es) is irrelevant to how much validity their report contains.
on dual blunt in particular. There are problems here and the execution is too strong. The concerns that that is all they have is also valid and is something I'm very mindful of. They'll likely get some extra tools dependent on any changes that happen.
On damage classes in general. Damage classes are -extremely- hard to get right. Frankly, I've not seen any IRE game get this quite right yet, us included. Fire lords took ~40% of the Elemental Lord dev time and they're still not there, so this is very tough. Its something we are constantly working on and it is my hope we will crack this eventually.
Feel free to continue!