Classleads

Elisella

Devran said:

Isn't DWB more effective as an Infernal than the other Knight types? If so, there's your answer. Mhaldor doesn't have a large population. How many of that smallish population are Infernal? That could by why there aren't many DWB Infernals. Not because the spec isn't great, but because the people playing the class are low in number.

Both Paladin and Infernal have a spec that their secondary skill brings almost nothing to: (Infernal SnB pretty much loses vivisect as a finisher and doesn't get a disembowel bonus like Runewarden, Paladin's strength bonus and passive pressure from Demons doesn't bring a whole lot to 2H and I don't even think Damnation is possible as 2H).

Aside from that, Infernal and Paladin are also somewhat limited by choosing between the cost of arties (for DWC/DWB), a lack of group utility (2H), or agony in bashing (SnB). Combine that with Elemental Lords, Dragons, and other classes being better for hunting/groups, it's understandable how the factional knights don't get a lot of representation in their small populations.

Lyrin

summon hands of the grave

walk <direction>

for a big efficiency boost, you can just enter the direction without the "walk"

Reyson

Lyrin said see:

summon hands of the grave

walk <direction>

for a big efficiency boost, you can just enter the direction without the "walk"

K, you pick up DWB and I'll grab sentinel and we'll see how that goes >:(

Armali

He'd beat you because DOR fly beats Sentinel but DOR fly does not beat Infernal.

Nazihk

Proficy said:

I think i am literally the only Infernal Dual blunt player above level 80ish. Highly highly debatable, but i would imagine a lot more players would be trying this class out, or have it at least multi classed if it was anywhere near as effective as you all make it seem to be.

This is definitely one of those "the grass looks greener on the other side" moments.

DWB is a spec that really only starts to shine with high level artifacts, imo. It's still good without them, but it is a bit lackluster without the fuck-you damage the L3's bring to the table. That's largely because it's so completely lacking in team synergy and affliction/hinder power, but it doesn't help that the momentum mechanic makes it particularly susceptible to hinders for a limb class.

Lyrin

Reyson said:

Lyrin said see:

summon hands of the grave

walk <direction>

for a big efficiency boost, you can just enter the direction without the "walk"

K, you pick up DWB and I'll grab sentinel and we'll see how that goes >:(

Deal.   You join Eleusis first, then I'll change...

Seriously though, devo/necro cover the weaknesses of weaponmastery specs which lack defensive power very well imo.

Lyrin

Armali said:

He'd beat you because DOR fly beats Sentinel but DOR fly does not beat Infernal.

I wish classleads hadn't closed.   You just gave me an idea for a kangaroo morph with LEAP HIGH

Rangor

Lyrin said:

Armali said:

He'd beat you because DOR fly beats Sentinel but DOR fly does not beat Infernal.

I wish classleads hadn't closed.   You just gave me an idea for a kangaroo morph with LEAP HIGH

I seen Kangaroo's, they don't jump, they permanently chill in the shade. 

Proficy

Nazihk said:

Proficy said:

I think i am literally the only Infernal Dual blunt player above level 80ish. Highly highly debatable, but i would imagine a lot more players would be trying this class out, or have it at least multi classed if it was anywhere near as effective as you all make it seem to be.

This is definitely one of those "the grass looks greener on the other side" moments.

DWB is a spec that really only starts to shine with high level artifacts, imo. It's still good without them, but it is a bit lackluster without the fuck-you damage the L3's bring to the table. That's largely because it's so completely lacking in team synergy and affliction/hinder power, but it doesn't help that the momentum mechanic makes it particularly susceptible to hinders for a limb class.

You have to be able to hit, to do that damage....
Nerf clunsiness please and thank you.....

And the damage increase is not that big of a deal at all with artefacts at all.. the increase is very minimal, the speed in which it increases even though is only a few .2-.5 seconds faster makes more of a difference.
Aura can potentially shut that class or spec down effectively... stacked with affliction hindering and clumsiness, it gets rough.

Torinn

Just seems like people know how to play against DWB.  Against priest it's "run away/sip Mana prio".  Against serpent it's "shield on snap".  A lot of classes have that sort of counter.

Farrah

The issue is that there is no way to play against DWB as a lot of classes. That's why it is called "overpowered." 

Reyson said:

Infernal's offense is great in general (barring snb), but there's a prety steep tradeoff. Dwb infernal has no hinder and no passive cure, so you're very very vulnerable to momentum offences. I don't think it's as one-button-win-y as people seem to think it is. That said, it's hilarious and I want it.

I don't think people are really even saying it is a one button win. Maybe as runie DWB against a sufficiently squishy person, but otherwise not really. It can still be OP though. If the only solution to DWB Infernal kill setups is "don't fight the class" or "run for 3 min so your limbs reset," there's an issue.

Voli

I'm a squishy and I have to resist giving up on fighting Knight prep as a Blademaster. Especially when they prep faster than I do and do 25% my health per hit.

I am also a noob

Rackham

I'm also a noob! The consensus seems to be, if you're a squishy, unartied blademaster, to hit a leg and run. Then hit the other leg and run. Repeat til they've gotten sick of you and left, or you kill them. 

Rispok

Lyrin said:

Armali said:

He'd beat you because DOR fly beats Sentinel but DOR fly does not beat Infernal.

I wish classleads hadn't closed.   You just gave me an idea for a kangaroo morph with LEAP HIGH

Still waiting for the classlead from some time ago somebody submitted, with serpent morph, that gives both evade and phase.

Mizik

Sub 6k health Serpent. DWB is mechanically not an option. I go down I stay down.

Ironically, I got HARD slow prepped by Proficy just today. Leave every 3-4 stabs, shield 3-4 times every few other stabs. Post takedown, dude leaped over a wall, razed rebounding and still refreshed the perma mangle - which didn't matter since they were doing 40%.

Exelethril

Any notable changes to Shikudo? Tempted to give that spec a shot

Nazihk

I feel like a part of the problem with DWB is that their prep move is also a heavy-damage finisher against most people. Dragons and monks and such have to stop doing limb damage to throw their heavy hits, but DWB gets to throw the equivalent of 2300 damage snapkick combos and can keep breaking limbs while dealing high damage.

IMO, make dwhirl spamming a prone target into a less powerful offensive option and make torso assault their ground-and-pound damage killer. 

Amranu

Proficy calling for clumsiness nerf. Sweet, sweet irony.

Kiet

Regardless of who's calling for it, clumsiness is like the worst general mechanic in achaean combat right now. RNG based offense hinder that hurts manual users more than automation (since an AI can easily compensate) but is incredibly annoying no matter what is awful.

Keorin

Nazihk said:

I feel like a part of the problem with DWB is that their prep move is also a heavy-damage finisher against most people. Dragons and monks and such have to stop doing limb damage to throw their heavy hits, but DWB gets to throw the equivalent of 2300 damage snapkick combos and can keep breaking limbs while dealing high damage.

IMO, make dwhirl spamming a prone target into a less powerful offensive option and make torso assault their ground-and-pound damage killer. 

As a monk that heavily struggles with dwb's damage output, I think this is right. Flail doublewhirls serve as a quick prep option, their primary hinder through mangles, and one of their heaviest damage options, all in one attack, and that combination can simply make them unstoppable.

My thought has been that the limb damage boost that dwb receives against prone/broken targets needs to be split off into its own skill. DWB arguably needs to be able to do its one-limb mangles in order to hinder, but right now it's tied to heavy health damage boosts, and it helps them build momentum at the same time (which allows for very low-momentum kills).

Remove the prone damage boost, add a skill that can jump a leg from damaged to mangled against a prone target, but costs momentum and does substantially less damage, and which has some sort of cooldown.

Amranu

Kiet said:

Regardless of who's calling for it, clumsiness is like the worst general mechanic in achaean combat right now. RNG based offense hinder that hurts manual users more than automation (since an AI can easily compensate) but is incredibly annoying no matter what is awful.

I'm glad people are finally coming around to this opinion 2 years after I originally went on my tirade about the retardedness of this affliction being able to be stuck under para and making combat an rng joke (1v1 anyway).

I'm just a little salty it's taken this long.

Atalkez

You don’t know anything about rng missing until you’ve played BM, whiners.

JK, but I don’t see an issue with clumsiness. It’s not the most elegant solution, but it’s also not as bad as people make it out to be. Arguably shaman and apostate are hurt worse than most others that deal with it, but that could easily be adjusted on those classes, if it’s an actual issue.

Farrah

Kiet said:

Regardless of who's calling for it, clumsiness is like the worst general mechanic in achaean combat right now. RNG based offense hinder that hurts manual users more than automation (since an AI can easily compensate) but is incredibly annoying no matter what is awful.

I actually wholly disagree with this. Clumsiness is an equalizer and an automator who just spams an alias is likely to lose to a smart manualer when clumsy is in play (because bad clumsy RNG requires player reaction such as going defensive to catch back up). Obviously an attentive automator can still do fine, but I don't find it hard to react to manually either. You have 2 seconds to react as most classes.

Classes wouldn't be as balanced without clumsiness imo because the class with the fastest offense would simply always win.

That doesn't mean no class specific changes are needed though. Not sure about shaman but Apostate should probably only have one stare affected since that's the standard now (serp, dw, alch). But I think the mechanic itself is important.

Vaniel

Clumsiness is the whole reason I dumped Tekura and went DW and win the majority of my fights. I'll always just reapply clumsiness and continue my offense. Only other person I really struggle with is Iakimen and that's cuz Alchie is bananas at keeping you locked down. 

I think clumsiness is a bit too strong here and the rng of missing three times in a row is super rough especially when a knight misses on their finisher, or a monk misses sweep but hits torso and leg. 

I think it'd just be better if there was a roll like in fire emblem. Double or hybrid, so that clumsiness can't decidedly screw someone over to the point that they can't do anything or have lost the fight.

Also a lot of you forget you spam RoF and most of the entry levels can't do that. If anyone tumbles against me I'll just preempt then distort and keep it up. The only real option to catch up is to spam RoF since it's the most ideal way to cure up.

I won't ever play something like Monk and am impressed enough with those who stick it out. But clumsiness definitely needs some scaling back imho. Or at the least a cooldown on missing 3 times in a row, or not missing on a prepped limb.

Kiet

Sure if the automator sucks the manualler is going to win, but I'm talking about comparable skill levels. Even with a decent amount of extra skill on the manualler's part, it's a lot harder to think through all the affs you're missing and adjusting than it is for your script to adjust. This is especially true for the classes that are particularly fast or have differently structured offenses (sentinel axing, bard, etc) where adjusting becomes a lot more difficult.

You can't just delete clumsiness as is and keep it balanced, obviously. But the classes shouldn't be balanced around the existence of clumsiness, because it makes combat that's already non-player RNG heavy (by that I mean the RNG isn't really 'what will my opponent do' but more 'what does the game decide for me) into even more of a roulette. I don't find 'is the rng in my favor for these past few attacks or should I reset the fight' particularly interesting design, personally.

Obviously removing clumsiness would require either some kind of brilliant replacement for it or rebalancing half the classes in the game, so I'm not holding out hope.

Atalkez

Vaniel said:

Clumsiness is the whole reason I dumped Tekura and went DW and win the majority of my fights. I'll always just reapply clumsiness and continue my offense. Only other person I really struggle with is Iakimen and that's cuz Alchie is bananas at keeping you locked down. 

I think clumsiness is a bit too strong here and the rng of missing three times in a row is super rough especially when a knight misses on their finisher, or a monk misses sweep but hits torso and leg. 

I think it'd just be better if there was a roll like in fire emblem. Double or hybrid, so that clumsiness can't decidedly screw someone over to the point that they can't do anything or have lost the fight.

Also a lot of you forget you spam RoF and most of the entry levels can't do that. If anyone tumbles against me I'll just preempt then distort and keep it up. The only real option to catch up is to spam RoF since it's the most ideal way to cure up.

I won't ever play something like Monk and am impressed enough with those who stick it out. But clumsiness definitely needs some scaling back imho. Or at the least a cooldown on missing 3 times in a row, or not missing on a prepped limb.

This is largely a perception difference, though. Monk has no hinder, so you're going to suffer clumsiness more often than DW, because DW is hindering your opponent as well. Which equates to less clumsiness upkeep time in general. Monk gets hurt by clumsiness and missing, but no more than DW does when you miss a boosted loop reap to steal shadow - instead losing several rounds of momentum. Monk especially isn't in a bad spot, because the prep is so fast. Botching a break as SnB is an entirely differently world than botching one as Monk.

There already was an internal CD, and it basically made the affliction irrelevant. Missing 1 attack doesn't do much for the defender, and doesn't hurt the offense very much in general. It's only really an issue for offense and beneficial for defense when it proccs several times in a row, or several attacks deep. Like I mentioned before, Shaman and Apostate are two classes that I could see being affected more on clumsiness RNG totally. Shaman because it's so fast, which means a lot more attacks susceptible to the RNG in burst scenarios (swift spam > defender resets > swift spam on entry) and Apostate because Evileyes can miss both at the same time.

Kiet said:

Sure if the automator sucks the manualler is going to win, but I'm talking about comparable skill levels. Even with a decent amount of extra skill on the manualler's part, it's a lot harder to think through all the affs you're missing and adjusting than it is for your script to adjust. This is especially true for the classes that are particularly fast or have differently structured offenses (sentinel axing, bard, etc) where adjusting becomes a lot more difficult.

You can't just delete clumsiness as is and keep it balanced, obviously. But the classes shouldn't be balanced around the existence of clumsiness, because it makes combat that's already non-player RNG heavy (by that I mean the RNG isn't really 'what will my opponent do' but more 'what does the game decide for me) into even more of a roulette. I don't find 'is the rng in my favor for these past few attacks or should I reset the fight' particularly interesting design, personally.

Obviously removing clumsiness would require either some kind of brilliant replacement for it or rebalancing half the classes in the game, so I'm not holding out hope.

I don't agree with the thought process that an RNG miss somehow hurts manual players more than it does automated players. I've played a lot of classes that deal with clumsiness as a manual player, and rarely have I felt it's an issue. If I'm behind in a momentum vs momentum fight, and clumsiness is helping them more than me, then I am losing and it's time to break away or go defensive (shielding, etc). The issue isn't that classes were balanced around clumsiness, it's that classes were overtuned and needed something other than Paralysis that did something (ignoring lethargy/confusion) beneficial. I could see an argument to replace clumsiness with more lethargy/confusion spam, but that seems to be a massively worse option to me.

Farrah

Must just approach manualling differently than me then. Particularly for the classes that can only miss one out of their two affs (which is really most momentum classes), it's really not hard for me to say "Ok, that one missed, have to redo that attack". You're just repeating the same attack again. Clumsiness is the least of my concerns in the automation vs manual list of advantages/disadvantages. Obviously automation offers tons of advantages if the automator is equal skill to the manualler. I don't see responding to clumsiness as one of them really.

If you had a brilliant replacement idea, then I wouldn't necessarily be opposed though, yeah. Though I don't hate it as much as is as some people apparently do. Some people have suggested basically just removing it, which is what I'm arguing can't really happen without destroying balance.

Calira

Shaman can deal with clumsiness just fine. Vodun Paralyse isn't affected by it and is even faster than swiftcurse, curses against a paralysed target will never fail due to clumsiness, and Jinx will also never fail. These factors can let a Shaman never be affected by it at all if they bother to make a small doll.

The reason that Apostate is fully affected where other classes aren't is due to their many passives. Offensive, affliction-based passives in the form of demon, bloodworms and deathaura, and Demon Syphon being the strongest passive affliction cure in the game. If they weren't fully hinderable then they would simply outclass all other momentum.

Kiet

I'm not sure how you can argue adding more things to react to that are trivial to code doesn't hurt manual players more. Sure, it might not hurt you, but you have to remember the game is technically there for new people to learn, too. If I was a random newbie with no bias against automation and I saw clumsiness existing I'd just immediately code an offense on the spot, lol. Who tf wants to deal with that?

Like I said, this is especially true for the hyperfast classes or the ones with several balances to keep track of. Monk/serpent have it easy tracking clumsy hits, but not every class does.

Reyson

Deathaura isn't an aff. And I'm pretty sure that because of the way it gives slickness, it's also not the fastest aff in the game. Clumsiness hitting Apostate so hard is a real kick in the nads, but defence being so simple vs. Apostate is a bigger deal. 

That said, I don't like clumsiness because it just makes the gulf between prep and aff so much larger. Against depthswalker, I usually end up leaving until I get rid of it and get tree bal back, and that makes for boringish fights. Puts DW in the same kind if fight as Alchemist, and I just find that unfun