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  • Farrah said:
    The momentum requirements for DWB are pretty trivial too tbh. I wouldn't mind the kill being unstoppable if it required enough momentum that a pure momentum class could fight against it, but it doesn't. If you are pointing to momentum denial as the counter, you're saying momentum classes (especially slower ones) basically have to just stop fighting for 3 minutes until their limbs reset, which is boring and a major issue to me.

    Momentum decay is also insanely slow compared to momentum gain, so you can go defensive and not lose all your momentum like an actual momentum class does. I'm sure a prep class could hit and run slow prep the DWB but some classes really have no option.
    No I am pointing to the momentum required to pull off a Pulp or Vivisect. It is different. I have a different momentum requirement and different prep strategy for Pulp then Vivisect. And the window to execute is smaller than what people think. Slow prep works to a point but I still NEED a specific amount of momentum to pull off either strategy... which requires hitting you continuously.
  • Leviticus said:
    You don't need L3 Flails to be the best at Infernal, it is actually the L3 stars that are critical. People don't really know that. Speed allows DwB to do what it needs to do (momentum)
    Literally everyone who knows about the vivi/pulp fork knows this.

    Also I'm pretty sure Farrah's comment about was momentum was because you can just hit untargeted doublewhirls to gain momentum, without sacrificing any of your prep. It is trivial once you're prepped. The window is fully in the infernal's hands at that point, it's just a matter of when they wanna pull the trigger.

  • Pyori said:
    Leviticus said:
    You don't need L3 Flails to be the best at Infernal, it is actually the L3 stars that are critical. People don't really know that. Speed allows DwB to do what it needs to do (momentum)
    Literally everyone who knows about the vivi/pulp fork knows this.

    Also I'm pretty sure Farrah's comment about was momentum was because you can just hit untargeted doublewhirls to gain momentum, without sacrificing any of your prep. It is trivial once you're prepped. The window is fully in the infernal's hands at that point, it's just a matter of when they wanna pull the trigger.
    We all know that DwB is going to get nerfed and after this no one will play DwB because the one thing it has going for it is damage. It has nothing else. As it is people don't even play DwB except Proficy and Doch. Can't wait to see what they do. BM and Tekura Monk all over again. 
  • edited April 2018
    Pyori said:
    Leviticus said:
    You don't need L3 Flails to be the best at Infernal, it is actually the L3 stars that are critical. People don't really know that. Speed allows DwB to do what it needs to do (momentum)
    Literally everyone who knows about the vivi/pulp fork knows this.

    Actually, it's not true. Level 3 stars are not required for the unstoppable vivi/pulp fork and vivi and pulp are not different and separate setups if you play right. It's a fork. If I cure one way, you pulp. If I cure the other way, you vivi.

    Some Infernals ignore the fact that it's a fork and don't use all the class's potential. 

    You need a trivial amount of momentum to pull off the fork because full momentum is a trivial amount of momentum with the lvl 3s in particular. You get there in 8-9 seconds (10-11 unartied?). Most momentum classes require more than 8-9 or even 10-11 seconds to possibly kill you, so once they are prepped, their only option is to stop fighting for 3 minutes until limbs reset, or let you kill them.

    Edit: Tekura monk is extremely viable currently! Has Jhui really been forgotten already? BM wasn't really nerfed as far as I can remember. It's always struggled with a certain defense/artie combo.
  • Farrah said:
    Pyori said:
    Leviticus said:
    You don't need L3 Flails to be the best at Infernal, it is actually the L3 stars that are critical. People don't really know that. Speed allows DwB to do what it needs to do (momentum)
    Literally everyone who knows about the vivi/pulp fork knows this.

    Actually, it's not true. Level 3 stars are not required for the unstoppable vivi/pulp fork and vivi and pulp are not different and separate setups if you play right. It's a fork. If I cure one way, you pulp. If I cure the other way, you vivi.

    Some Infernals ignore the fact that it's a fork and don't use all the class's potential. 

    You need a trivial amount of momentum to pull off the fork because full momentum is a trivial amount of momentum with the lvl 3s in particular. You get there in 8-9 seconds (10-11 unartied?). Most momentum classes require more than 8-9 or even 10-11 seconds to possibly kill you, so once they are prepped, their only option is to stop fighting for 3 minutes until limbs reset, or let you kill them.

    Edit: Tekura monk is extremely viable currently! Has Jhui really been forgotten already? BM wasn't really nerfed as far as I can remember. It's always struggled with a certain defense/artie combo.

    You named the best or one of the best combatants in the game. Tekura monk is still good but it used to be a beast with all the artefacts. I haven't played nor seen it played (besides Atalkez) after the clumsiness roll-back. BM was too strong and then brought back into "balance" with infuse changes. Two problems with BM is with accuracy which is being fixed and the set up and execution of brokenstar.

    DwB Infernal will be brought in line, I am sure. We will see what happens. I am interested in what the Achaea team will come up with that doesn't completely neuter it across the three classes (Infernal, Runie and Paladin)
  • As Shikudo, I can split about 50/50 vs Proficy and Doch I can win a majority so I'm assuming @Atalkez is referring to Tekura struggling vs it rather than all monks?
  • edited April 2018
    Realistically, the kill setups will be fine tuned to not be so easy to secure. Infernal is the one DwB that has a secondary salve fork that requires no other affs (Damnation cannot be done by DwB because it requires asthma and hellsight on top of the head break, for instance), which is why it is the main one people discuss when they bring up DwB behind unstoppable.

    Pulp by itself is extremely strong as a finisher, because the window is very large. With full weapons, you have time to leap around a wall, raze rebounding, and still secure a Pulp. That's not realistic in comparison to other prep classes where tumbling away is largely the counter. When you add in the ability to fork into Vivi, it's even worse on having a secured kill, since a head break first with numbed arms effectively is a death sentence. Apply to head, vivi. Apply to arms or legs to try to stop vivi, go into pulp execution. It's the only class that has this interaction in it's kit, when looking at this particular spec.

    Personally, I'd like to move away from buying more speed across the board. Increase damage, increase accuracy, but keep the speed the same as a forged person. This would make balancing timing a lot easier imo. If you notice, most of the classes lately are designed like this. You can increase how potent the class is, but not how fast it is. That's the better setup to me.

    Edit: @Puxi absolutely. Shikudo has paralysis, clumsiness and lethargy plus limb breaks. There's no real reason Shikudo should lose to DwB in most cases. I could probably do it, it would be entirely a prep race. The main difference is that he could survive the damage on his side, while I couldn't, once proned. Fullplate vs leather. That's assuming he just did Pulp and I actually had a chance to cure around the setup and kaiheal etc. If he forked the Vivi, which breaks arms, it's entirely a prep race since I'd die to the damage without kaihael.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • Puxi said:
    As Shikudo, I can split about 50/50 vs Proficy and Doch I can win a majority so I'm assuming @Atalkez is referring to Tekura struggling vs it rather than all monks?
    Sticky-monk has much better hinder than punchy-monk, I think... 
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • Eh. I don't think a stickmonk would be great against optimal DWB Infernal. There's the fact that not everyone plays optimally, though.

    I'm sure Tek monk can beat DWB. It's just a prep race. I'd rather be Tek monk than a momentum class against it, which is what really suffers imo (if they play optimally). You get slow prepped and then unstoppably killed. Something has to give there. Give up defense and risk dying or lose the unstoppable kill so both sides can live on.
  • edited April 2018
    Atalkez said:

    Shikudo has paralysis, clumsiness and lethargy plus limb breaks. 
    Plus kaido defense + telepathy hinder/offense + (stuns + blackout + ignores rebounding/excellent touch shield handling). Not that it matters against vivi-fork but it's very tempting to play as  :s

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  • The artied pulp window is too big, this conflates the varying threats available to dwb. I don't think anyone wants to make the spec useless but let me be clear, I can pulp with only flails, morningstars are significantly faster and provide an unnecessary margin for success. Throw vivisect into the mix and it's just capitalising on the reliability of pulp given the available toolset.

    As for the damage, it's just damage, it gives flails a use, it's a longer execution sequence, has more room for counterplay, and is possible to outright tank in the right classes. I don't have a strong opinion on its average for success as minor tweaks aren't a big deal, but I am glad it's not designed to execute like a pulp replica.
  • edited April 2018
    All I am reading, as a scrub, is to just avoid Knights altogether because if I don't die to their prep, their dmg will just kill me. Gotcha. My slashy sword is weak.

    Just joking. I just need to parry better.


  • I straight up don't fight artied dwb unless maybe I'm in dragon. It's a valid concern that without their damage dwb is kind of a garbage class, I guess, but that's why I hate damage classes. They'll probably need something new to be able to beat people who can tank nerfed damage, because otherwise it'll always be an issue of insta win vs 90% of the game and stuck vs that 10% that can tank it (though I'm not sure how to address dwb infernal).
  • Voli said:
    All I am reading, as a scrub, is to just avoid Knights altogether because if I don't die to their prep, their dmg will just kill me. Gotcha. My slashy sword is weak.

    Just joking. I just need to parry better.
    Just engage and cleave.. and make sure I give you miasma first so you aren't useless.  <3
  • I guess i am garbage cause i still see no 100% fork for dwb infernal.
    To even prep for both you have to have all 5 limbs fully preped (guaranteed kill for any and every prep class last i checked), then to execute you need a minimum of 7 out of 8 momentum points (very difficult to do against aff and other momentum classes) then you have to execute around clumsiness so you actually hit. How the dwb player initiates the chain odviously tells which he is going for.. there is no fork just preparation for both.
    And 99% of people dont not have flexible dynamics to there system to handle change so what may seem like a "fork" is me just basing my kill path on how i know your going to cure.

    I too am eagerly awaiting these upcoming changes... this class is so controversial now. I hope it gets some more functionality so i can use it more than just 1 on 1 scenarios.
  • edited April 2018
    I'd like BM to have an option to insta-kill people based off limbs broken. Brokenstar is like pulp with extra steps, and more counters.

    It can also have custom kill lines and unique kill paths based off the stance you want to initiate it from, or something.

    Doya lets you use the easiest kill path, because it's a useless stance.. so you'll never be able to reach it except to troll people.


  • It's a fork because technically you can stop pulp by not applying to anything but head until the DWB wastes momentum on an assault or something (which is what I used to do when you played runie against me) but if you don't apply to legs, the DWB can just doublewhirl arms and vivi, hence going from a very difficult to stop setup to an unstoppable one.

    Most prep classes cannot 100% unstoppably kill, no, and requiring five body parts prepped as DWB is not exactly a long, drawn-out prep. The class preps quickly.
  • edited April 2018
    While it's not true on the highest ends of health, it's also worth noting that DWB is -still- capable of perma-manglelocks off of a single leg break. If anyone cares about players newer to the game/combat, that's probably the dumbest part of the class right now. That threshold isn't small, either. With l3 flails, you can perma-mangle up to pretty high levels of health, if the target isn't artied.

    Their flail damage path isn't quite as bad, but is still pretty rediculous if you don't have a full defensive artie set to survive it. It can fully prep in some five combos at the slowest, and takes something like 3 momentum to start, for a damage setup that's nearly unavoidable. As a moderately-artifacted monk against forged flails, I usually need to maelstrom and build kai just to have enough heals to survive the setup, I still regularly don't, and that's -if- they don't slip in arm breaks.

    At the highest levels, it's definitely pulp that's pretty absurd, but DWB is easily the worst offender at turning artifact disparities or lower-leveled player's health levels into mechanically unwinnable fights, because of stuff like this.
  • @Keorin, have you tried leaning on Rain for Clumsiness/Lethary to slow down the DwB's momentum. Maelstrom just seems like you aren't really achieving anything offensively. The key for me is to force them to have to play defensively for a bit while you either build Kelps or have enough Kai to play prone defense, if needed.
  • I usually try that first, yeah, and only mess with maelstrom if it's clear I'm dying to not building kai quick enough. Trouble is, they -will- build their prep up, and kai gain is based on how much they're actually hitting me. Weariness and lethargy slow the pre-damage, but they don't mean I'll be going into the kill chain with any more kai, and that's the only real thing that determines if I live or die.

    Doesn't help that dwb kai gain is weird, and isn't increased by kai boost as much as other attacks. When it only takes them a few doublewhrils of prep to get you, you're just not always gunna have the kai heals you need to live through 4 flail hits, two of which get the prone+broken limb bonus, and 2 assault torsos to top it off.
  • Why not just make doublewhirl as horrid to-hit as Maul or Bite?  Problem solved.   They *might* hit 60% of the time.

  • Caelan said:
    Why not just make doublewhirl as horrid to-hit as Maul or Bite?  Problem solved.   They *might* hit 60% of the time.
    Using maul in 2018, omegalul.

  • I feel a new classlead idea building...
  • Farrah said:
    It's a fork because technically you can stop pulp by not applying to anything but head until the DWB wastes momentum on an assault or something (which is what I used to do when you played runie against me) but if you don't apply to legs, the DWB can just doublewhirl arms and vivi, hence going from a very difficult to stop setup to an unstoppable one.

    Most prep classes cannot 100% unstoppably kill, no, and requiring five body parts prepped as DWB is not exactly a long, drawn-out prep. The class preps quickly.
    Amusingly, even without vivi threat this is not a counter to pulp.
  • Mindshell said:
    Farrah said:
    It's a fork because technically you can stop pulp by not applying to anything but head until the DWB wastes momentum on an assault or something (which is what I used to do when you played runie against me) but if you don't apply to legs, the DWB can just doublewhirl arms and vivi, hence going from a very difficult to stop setup to an unstoppable one.

    Most prep classes cannot 100% unstoppably kill, no, and requiring five body parts prepped as DWB is not exactly a long, drawn-out prep. The class preps quickly.
    Amusingly, even without vivi threat this is not a counter to pulp.

    Shhh. I think I know what you're getting at and it makes me even sadder. Nobody has ever done that to me though so the fork makes it worse.
  • Syntax:
    CLUB <target>

    Works on/against:
    Adventurers

    Cooldown:
    Balance cost varies based on weapon speed
    Details:
    Once you have suitably prepared your opponent by breaking one of his    
    limbs and impaling him upon your blade, you may bring your shield       
    crashing down upon his skull, stunning him momentarily.     

    Proficy brings his shield crashing down onto your sternum, stunning you!


    literally unplayable
  • Farrah said:
    It's a fork because technically you can stop pulp by not applying to anything but head until the DWB wastes momentum on an assault or something (which is what I used to do when you played runie against me) but if you don't apply to legs, the DWB can just doublewhirl arms and vivi, hence going from a very difficult to stop setup to an unstoppable one.

    Most prep classes cannot 100% unstoppably kill, no, and requiring five body parts prepped as DWB is not exactly a long, drawn-out prep. The class preps quickly.
    You know better than ANYONE that if you get caught pre applying against any prep class as soon as they notice. Your going to die another route... I don't see how this is any different. Still not a fork at all just the aggressor planning well ahead.

    And against certain classes it is terribly long. Some people with good parrying and affection pressure can get a timed reset.
  • Proficy said:
    Some people with good parrying and affection pressure can get a timed reset.
    The most Mhaldorian of quotes.
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