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Aegoth

Pyori said:

Minifie said:

That songbird nerf.

Is not even a nerf. To terrible bards, maybe.

Huge nerf to @Xaden then

Solnir

Xaden uses bard?????????

Solnir

But also I dislike pinshot changes. It's personal hinder, not room like distort/ghands/piety. Keep the old proc rate and make it stay the same on target leaving pls.

ETA: Orrrrrr make it an arrow spam that hits all personal enemies in room instead of just the target.

Xaden

Aegoth said:

Pyori said:

Minifie said:

That songbird nerf.

Is not even a nerf. To terrible bards, maybe.

Huge nerf to @Xaden then

You're rude

Antonius

Solnir said:

But also I dislike pinshot changes. It's personal hinder, not room like distort/ghands/piety. Keep the old proc rate and make it stay the same on target leaving pls.

ETA: Orrrrrr make it an arrow spam that hits all personal enemies in room instead of just the target.

Combat is primarily balanced around 1v1, though with changes like this (and others) there are obviously group combat benefits too. In a 1v1 fight, why should pinshot be better than piety/gravehands/distortion?

The fact that pinshot is mobile with the target means that there's always at least a 33% chance of their movement being stopped while pinshot is active, no matter where they go or where you are. With the room-based hinders, once they're out of the room(s) with that hinder in it, the chance to have movement blocked is 0%. Pinshot's chance to stop movement also jumps back up to 66% immediately if you catch up with the target, without requiring an additional equilibrium (or age) cost.

Solnir

@Antonius I see the issue with it being better than room based in that case, but that is why I said revert the percentage back to how it was. Currently it suffers the disadvantage of being a lower proc rate out of room during group, but doesnt have the advantage of hitting multiple people in group. Surely some balance can be found here.

Rangor

Solnir said:

@Antonius I see the issue with it being better than room based in that case, but that is why I said revert the percentage back to how it was. Currently it suffers the disadvantage of being a lower proc rate out of room during group, but doesnt have the advantage of hitting multiple people in group. Surely some balance can be found here.

It follows the target, which is a massive advantage. I've died so many times from escaping, then running into pinshot hindering me on the way home and the enemy team catching up with me.

Maux

The aeon nerf has some implications on Jester 1v1 it seems as well, unfortunately.

I'm just not quite convinced we can keep puppetry and bring jester in-line with everyone else. Jester has just been nerfed pretty severely over the years. You can theorycraft all day about how Jester is fantastical and capable of everything under the sun, but in actual practice... well there's a reason there aren't many playing it that pvp. You can find almost every class being played in higher tier pvp, except jester.

I'm kinda in favor of a total rework on this class, not because i want shiny cool new toys.. I rather adore Jester, but I think it's reaching obsoleteness at this point when virtually all other classes are a better choice in most regards. Though if @Makarios can pull a rabbit out of the hat with this and make jester great again.. I'd be happy.

Farrah

It'd be more helpful if you said what the implications are, since the change wasn't really intended to impact 1v1.

Kiet

Jester's fixes should come in the form of pranks rework or adding things to puppetry but not vodun. Deleting puppetry is always suggested (and was for shaman until they got spiritlore), but deleting the thing that makes the classes unique is a terrible approach, imo.

People keep thinking that they don't enjoy puppetry/vodun, so that's the issue with the classes. It's not.

Mathilda

Reskin jester 2018

Armali

The one jester I know who actually can play the class competently tested her setups and she said they were fine, so I'd like to know what it affects too.

Pyori

The aeon change hasn't affected 1v1 for any class that uses it.

The delay is only on the speed strip itself, not the applying of aeon. Every strat should be virtually unaffected, they're still not gonna have speed when you get balance back, so literally nothing has changed.

Calira

Casting Aeon under blackout will hide the speed strip even if it comes after the blackout ends. The only 1v1 loss that I can think of is the loss of Devil-assisted double Aeon.

Maux

I'd disagree, some of the underhanded tricks are affected. For example forcing speed to be sipped in order to reset the timer on speed coming up is affected by speed's balance being halved. Went from 5s window to 2.5s window. That would be considered affected.

Maux

Kiet said:

Jester's fixes should come in the form of pranks rework or adding things to puppetry but not vodun. Deleting puppetry is always suggested (and was for shaman until they got spiritlore), but deleting the thing that makes the classes unique is a terrible approach, imo.

People keep thinking that they don't enjoy puppetry/vodun, so that's the issue with the classes. It's not.

Perhaps, @kiet I've thought that before too. I suggest replacing puppetry simply because it seemed to be the easiest approach to some of the core issues, but you're right, the main issue with puppetry is some of the skills were balanced around the two one having morphed into a completely different animal and the time it takes to fashion. Pranks is rather dated as well. Aside from a few things like envenom being added and impatience given from itchpowder it's pretty much the same as it was like 8 years ago.

Sobriquet

Maux said:

I'd disagree, some of the underhanded tricks are affected. For example forcing speed to be sipped in order to reset the timer on speed coming up is affected by speed's balance being halved. Went from 5s window to 2.5s window. That would be considered affected.

How is that an issue?

Maux

It's an affected strategy?. It's not earth shattering or game breaking, but it was a valid trick to reset speed to gain a 5s window to offload affs to help stick aeon. 5s is enough time to juggle throw 3x and aeon again or whatever else you wanted to do in that 5s window.

Pyori

Maux said:

I'd disagree, some of the underhanded tricks are affected. For example forcing speed to be sipped in order to reset the timer on speed coming up is affected by speed's balance being halved. Went from 5s window to 2.5s window. That would be considered affected.

Why would you ever do this? I wouldn't really call it underhanded, just a waste.

Calira

Pyori said:

Why would you ever do this? I wouldn't really call it underhanded, just a waste.

So you have ~7 seconds to stack afflictions and cast Aeon before speed comes up instead of ~2 seconds. He's right, it was a useful tool that I overlooked. Perhaps even more useful for Shamans, since they don't have bombs or Aeon Tarot and are more reliant on sticking affs ahead of the slow.

Driden

Would it be to much to ask to get a line that fires on every alchemist attack when under mayalogy. Short of counting there balance times i see no obvious way to know im gonna get wrecked in time to do anything about it if they put it up out of room. The passive line that fires showed up 2 seconds before i died an i was paralyzed during that short duration. If i know right away that there boosting there balance times then its less of a griefers skill and more of FLING HERMIT AT GROUND/ORDER PATHFINDER HOME.##send tell -whoeever- enjoy ugrach. Can we also get the credit for the kill if they fail to kill us with it. That would be nice. 

Pyori

Calira said:

Pyori said:

Why would you ever do this? I wouldn't really call it underhanded, just a waste.

So you have ~7 seconds to stack afflictions and cast Aeon before speed comes up instead of ~2 seconds. He's right, it was a useful tool that I overlooked. Perhaps even more useful for Shamans, since they don't have bombs or Aeon Tarot and are more reliant on sticking affs ahead of the slow.

You don't need to do that to aeonlock as a Shaman. In fact you can start straight from 0 affs (1 of the ways requires a lot more fashions, granted) and pull it off, learned one or two of those tricks from Amranu. Think you're overstating force sip.

Driden said:

Can we also get the credit for the kill if they fail to kill us with it.

Why would they do this if you run the second they use it? They have their curing balances increased during mayology, you can take advantage of that.

Calira

Pyori said:

You don't need to do that to aeonlock as a Shaman. In fact you can start straight from 0 affs (1 of the ways requires a lot more fashions, granted) and pull it off. Think you're overstating force sip.

I called it useful, how is that over-stating it? The ways that Shaman has to stick Aeon are pretty lame compared to Jester, so having more options is useful.

Kiet

Shaman also doesn't remotely need aeon, to compensate. The only use aeon would have for shaman would be to puppet shake someone and rip.

Proficy

This aeon change is a massive buff 1 on 1 in my opinion... the speed is not stripped for a full 2.5 seconds, meaning you can not even sip speed to begin prepping the defence against it until then. This gives the caster time to be on balance well before your even able to react. 
They can now strip afflict a few times and still beat the speed counter, which can be enough to stick asthma and guarantee an easy kill path...... obviously easier said than done. But 2.5 seconds is a MASSIVE buff in a game of .seconds

On a side note am I the only one where gmcp is not recognizing the delay message as the defence being lost and not letting serverside resip the defence? Just curious as if this was intended

Pyori

That's because the defence doesn't get lost on the delay message. It's hardly gonna resip if it hasn't even been lost yet.

Nazihk

Proficy said:

This aeon change is a massive buff 1 on 1 in my opinion... the speed is not stripped for a full 2.5 seconds, meaning you can not even sip speed to begin prepping the defence against it until then. This gives the caster time to be on balance well before your even able to react. 

The time it takes speed to come up has also been halved, so the total length of time from aeon hitting to speed coming back up is still the same. 

Amranu

Nevermind

Proficy

Well after being locked before being able to even attempt setups i am all for saying that DwB is in the most OP class state and am welcoming and encouraging all changes to it, to give it something to affliction hinder or handle afflictions better in exchange for what ever it is you lot have been complaining about.

Cooper

There is a bit of a disconnect between players here. Some people consider "slow prep" to be an OK thing to do, and will fight people that choose to do that. For those unaware, slow prep is when you frequently leave the room while prepping the limbs of your opponent (or a doll/puppet).

The old guard considers this a pretty unsporting tactic, while the newer players consider this a fine thing to do because it wins them fights.

Some of the old players have adjusted their mindset, but to me, leaving the room every 5 seconds so you don't lose a fight is not fun and ruins the experience of fighting. But classes and player ability have been buffed to the point where this is pretty much necessary to fight 1v1.

So just leave the room after every attack Proficy, that's what everyone else is doing. At least you won't ever lose then.