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  • KietKiet Member Posts: 2,882 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 23
    If prep classes aren't dominating at any given time, it's because the people playing prep classes are either a) not that good or b) not so dedicated to winning they're willing to drag out a fight into boredom.

    There is no situation where prep classes don't have an advantage over momentum if the prep player is playing 100% to win, disregarding fun entirely. Momentum classes only have the advantage in being usually better at ganking unwilling targets that won't fight back and at the subjective 'fun' that some people might prefer (see: how unwilling people are to fashion as shaman/jester, despite it being the most powerful option).

    Also, shaman's strength comes from their prep options, with just curses they're not really that good since you can walk out at any time. Still enough to beat most people, sure, but most people have no defence game. Alch/bard/shaman are the only momentum classes that can somewhat mitigate prep, and it's usually because they have some sort of prep with them, with shaman obviously being the most extreme.

    If you slow prep hard enough you're never in danger vs a serpent or occultist. If you're playing for fun factor you might never slow prep that hard, but when discussing the strengths of classes we have to consider people playing 100% to win (within equitable circumstances, obv, not ganking someon 10v1).



  • ReysonReyson Member Posts: 510 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited April 23
    Serpent, possibly, occultist definitely not. They're still dangerous, and the only prep class I can think of that has a reliable way to get away without risking tentacles, that the occultist can't just follow through, now that writhe time is entanglement, is Infernal, and Infernal not having a passive cure makes Occie stupid scary. Well, BM has not-evade, I suppose, but has nothing to keep the occie in the room they just left except hamstring, nominally. I wouldn't put my money on the prep class, personally, vs. a really good occie :/
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 2,882 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 23
    If you're slow prepping to the absolute maximum extent of your game abilities you get like a billion attempts at getting past tentacles, it's not really an issue except in extreme outliers where you hit every single tentacle. Even then, you can tumble past your own hinder.

    You're 100% underestimating what I mean by slow prep, here. You think it's just like 'oh I'll run when I'm about to get hecated', I mean 'I'll run literally constantly because I lose nothing from it'

    It's also not really 'possibly', if you play defensive enough against a serpent you're never at risk.
  • ReysonReyson Member Posts: 510 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Tumble vs occie if your class doesn't have passive cure will get you killed unless you flame mono'd the room you're tumbling into at some point. Trust me on dis :(
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 2,882 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 23
    Good thing several prep classes have passive cures and if you expect to tumble you should've flamed a mono beforehand, then :tongue:
  • MicaelisMicaelis Member Posts: 280 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited April 23
    I don't know, if we assume a full 100% there would come a point where the momentum should refuse to engage to the same capacity as the prep. In all honesty, on either side, it should always end a draw unless I'm missing something.

    The main deterrent to this on a practical level is time, of course, so in reality you're right. But assuming all-out from both parties the momentum would reset the prep when the prep resets the momentum, prep just resets faster so that would give them the "edge" I suppose.
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 2,882 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 23
    Right, but game design shouldn't have the only winning strategy as refusing to engage.

    Also, fights definitely used to be very heavily about all fights ending in draws unless someone messed up a lot. I know some people prefer that but it's incredibly boring. We've moved away from that a lot which is great, but the disparity of prep still kind of brings it up sometimes. Momentum's definitely in the best spot it's been in years, but it's inaccurate to say it's stronger than prep, imo, is the point.
  • MicaelisMicaelis Member Posts: 280 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    No doubt, yeah.
  • MicaelisMicaelis Member Posts: 280 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I think the point about "Why aren't more top tier fighters prep then" is inaccurate as well. Momentum is objectively more interesting. Even when oblit was a thing people rarely went out of their way for those classes, even though they were nearly 100%.

    Effective momentum really shows off skill, so makes sense to me the Farrahs, Dunn's, and Jhuis of the world would prio momentum. 
    Kiet
  • DridenDriden Member Posts: 319 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    i did just encounter a sylvan that does nothing but slow preps......
  • MicaelisMicaelis Member Posts: 280 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Fighting a slow prepper is basically signing a prenup before the fight stating "I guarantee the outcome of this fight will result in my death".
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 545 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited April 23
    I feel like this is underestimating some of the tools that full momentum classes get. Mobile room hinder+auto-following, preempt, and the like offer some pretty powerful tools for blocking escapes, and momentum classes don't need a lot of hits to threaten kills. Trying to run that much also means you're giving up any kind of pressure of your own, and that you can't prio swap paralysis.

    Combine this with the fact that most prep kills are either avoidable with a good tumble, and/or can be made pretty unreliable with proper curing reflexes, and it's not really a one sided scenario here. If anything, just give room hinder a guaranteed 5-10 start period where they'll intercept all movement, to stop anyone who truly aims for one hit and run away.
  • NazihkNazihk Member Posts: 985 @ - Epic Achaean
    Micaelis said:
    I think the point about "Why aren't more top tier fighters prep then" is inaccurate as well. Momentum is objectively more interesting. Even when oblit was a thing people rarely went out of their way for those classes, even though they were nearly 100%.

    Effective momentum really shows off skill, so makes sense to me the Farrahs, Dunn's, and Jhuis of the world would prio momentum. 
    IMO, the explanation is even easier.

    Slow prep can only kill people who are willing to be slow prepped, because if they're not willing to lose the fight to it they can just walk away when the slow prepper leaves to heal. 

    Slow prep is the strongest combat strategy in arena conditions, but it's lacking in the real combat environment where the target can just call for help or walk away. The only people it's going to kill are the people who are too cocky or too proud to run away and wait out their limb timer.
    Micaelis
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 2,882 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    And if prep classes aren't willing to lose the fight they can slow prep, which means if no one's willing to lose no one's going to play, because that's the optimal strat. Duels require someone to take a risk, but our setup doesn't actually encourage non-momentum classes to.
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 1,959 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Micaelis said:
    I think the point about "Why aren't more top tier fighters prep then" is inaccurate as well. Momentum is objectively more interesting. Even when oblit was a thing people rarely went out of their way for those classes, even though they were nearly 100%.

    Effective momentum really shows off skill, so makes sense to me the Farrahs, Dunn's, and Jhuis of the world would prio momentum. 

    Jhui was never momentum. He played Tek monk and runie and was actually a perfect example of being pretty much unbeatable against momentum when he wanted. I stopped trying to fight him as serpent, DW, and priest, and could only beat him as paladin (prep v prep) other than a few mishaps here and there when he got lazy. Paladin was absolutely my go-to class for "want to win" fighting and tek monk was his.

    In the modern scene, it just so happens that a lot of top tier play momentum, and if everyone you fight plays momentum, you're fine playing momentum too.
    Kiet
  • RackhamRackham Member Posts: 59 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    I preface every one of my combat comments with 'i suck at combat', sooooo....

    On the topic of slow prep being unfun to play against.

    Completely agree, and would even go so far as to say it's not fun to play as. But as a new fighter, the advice is always, 'run more' or ''shield more' or something always besides just standing there and duking it out. I like BM, but it seems that's just how the class has to be played, unless some changes are made. 

    Totally feel free to correct me! I know they still have voidfist, and a bunch strikes! But they aren't an aff class, and don't have alot of hinder, so ummmmm that's all I got.
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 1,959 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 23
    It's also worth noting that not all momentum classes are equal against slow prep. Occultist is the best imo because it tears through shield well and chases well with mobile room hinder. Apostate and Priest, on the other hand, are literally impossible to lose to while slow prepping (which, ironically, given Cooper's post, Proficy exemplifies with his DWB slow prep).

    DW, serpent, and Alchemist are somewhere in the middle but I'd never bet on them against slow prep in a top tier fight because with the right tools, they're trivial to slow prep (fly spam vs alchie, dash vs DW preempt, tumble or walk vs DW distort because not very mobile - balanceless distort boosts age which kills its effectiveness - and rebounding/shield and run on Pinshot fade vs serpent).

    It's true you can theoretically counter prep too. It's just a lot harder or less likely something people are willing to do (running for a whole 3 minutes to reset limbs vs running for seconds to reset momentum, or having to strategically survive a prep setup), and some prep setups remain unstoppable. Hence, prep is better.
    ShirszaeKiet
  • TjayTjay Member Posts: 55 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Proficy said:
    Cooper said: 
    There is a bit of a disconnect between players here. Some people consider "slow prep" to be an OK thing to do, and will fight people that choose to do that. For those unaware, slow prep is when you frequently leave the room while prepping the limbs of your opponent (or a doll/puppet).

    The old guard considers this a pretty unsporting tactic, while the newer players consider this a fine thing to do because it wins them fights.

    Some of the old players have adjusted their mindset, but to me, leaving the room every 5 seconds so you don't lose a fight is not fun and ruins the experience of fighting. But classes and player ability have been buffed to the point where this is pretty much necessary to fight 1v1.

    So just leave the room after every attack Proficy, that's what everyone else is doing. At least you won't ever lose then.
    Something is wrong... terribly wrong if that's how I HAVE to fight... wish I kept the logs, by time I got too my third hit I was gambling with death in the brink of being locked..

     He actually DID lock me 2 times before he got the kill.. had to Dform and heal out.

    @cooper i understand that's how it's got to go mostly, but it yeah shouldn't be based around that... but I guess that's just how the OP life is
    Sorry <3

  • DridenDriden Member Posts: 319 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Farrah said:
    It's also worth noting that not all momentum classes are equal against slow prep. Occultist is the best imo because it tears through shield well and chases well with mobile room hinder. Apostate and Priest, on the other hand, are literally impossible to lose to while slow prepping (which, ironically, given Cooper's post, Proficy exemplifies with his DWB slow prep).

    DW, serpent, and Alchemist are somewhere in the middle but I'd never bet on them against slow prep in a top tier fight because with the right tools, they're trivial to slow prep (fly spam vs alchie, dash vs DW preempt, tumble or walk vs DW distort because not very mobile - balanceless distort boosts age which kills its effectiveness - and rebounding/shield and run on Pinshot fade vs serpent).

    It's true you can theoretically counter prep too. It's just a lot harder or less likely something people are willing to do (running for a whole 3 minutes to reset limbs vs running for seconds to reset momentum, or having to strategically survive a prep setup), and some prep setups remain unstoppable. Hence, prep is better.
    Maybe if we took the limb timer and started playing with it a bit? I personally think prep should still have that advantage of being able to keep progress and disengage so maybe shorten the limb reset timer to something like a 1:30. or have the limb reset time scale with the amount of damage done to that limb. or hits to the limb. make that class specific. so quick preppers have to stay in the room a lot more while slow prep classes have more time to get where there going. 
    TorinnKyoshiro
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 1,959 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 23
    Reducing the limb timer would only encourage things we don't want (run around 1.5 minutes to reset prep). It also would negatively impact some classes dealing with parry.

    I said what I think would help the most, though. Add mo reqs to more prep classes for parry bypass or finisher a la Earth Lord, knight nausea, etc., and give BM, DWB, Earth, and Tekura monk non-slow prep options as required. It's a little tricky just because of how some classes are designed though. DWB and Earth should be easiest to fix because of how they already work.

    Tekura and BM are a lot more difficult because they are pretty much built to slow prep. Little built in offensive hinder, but fantastic tools that you can use to stall offense after a few prep hits to catch back up. In Tekura's case, it's not so much running away as it is DRS plus shield/curseward spam and kai cripple/disrupt, but these are such hard forms of hinder that it's effectively the same as hit and run.
    Leviticus
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 4,708 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think some things are being a little exaggerated here. There's no reason Occultist, Alchemist, Serpent, or Bard suffer at all in most cases versus slow prep. Occultist and Alchemist have hinder that moves with them, so the prepper running away doesn't do too much if they chase at all. Serpent pinshot is similar, in that it moves with the prepper, so again all they have to do is chase well. Also hypnosis is affliction prep, so once you seal - you only need about 4 attack to start pushing a lock. That's not exactly a large window to get slow prepped in. Bard can return slow prep with their own prep options, which are fast and can easily get you locked once they start breaking. I agree with Farrah about Monk being more problematic, because not only do they have slow prep options but they also have some hard hinder options.

    Momentum classes can kill in 15-20 seconds. Even in the most extreme case of slow prep (hit once, start running) - you're only going to have to hit their room hinder a few times to still die, because the classes are tuned to be able to do that.

    Slow prep is strong against the classes that have slower executions or limited room hinder - but I find that it's a bit weaker than most people think it is overall.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    TaryiusKeorinReyson
  • DridenDriden Member Posts: 319 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Atalkez when you put it like that then I concur. so what about apostate who dont have these options?
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 1,959 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I could trivially slow prep a serpent or alchemist. Alchemist the issue is just fly spam. Otherwise, I'd agree. Serpent, I just disagree. The argument being made is that you can slow prep via essentially one hit, then running. Under that circumstance, serpent isn't so fast at locking that it can stop that (unless the pinshot buff changed this, maybe, I guess).
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 4,708 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I haven't found fly spam to be of much use after lead change to give paralysis. 

    As far as Serpent, and Apostate, it's entirely dependent on the RNG of their respective room hinder. If pinshot/hands keeps you in room long enough, or within 2-3 rooms long enough with good chasing, you're going to get locked. If you're constantly hitting hinder, you're not shielding/curseward/active spamming. If you do decide to shield, now you're not spamming against the room hinder and the class keeps going. I don't think hitting once, then trying to leave through room hinder vs a quick affliction class is near as effective as everyone else, apparently.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Taryius
  • ArmaliArmali Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I slowprep serpents in dragon with abundant shielding to wait out pinshot before making my escape. Weaving makes it a pita to even get that 'one hit' off.
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,193 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Armali said:
    I slowprep serpents in dragon with abundant shielding to wait out pinshot before making my escape. Weaving makes it a pita to even get that 'one hit' off.
     Can confirm, @Armali has slowprepped the shit out of serp-stere. 
    Mizik
  • ArmaliArmali Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Just one of those, 'if I don't slow prep I'm going to die' because of how bursty serpent is and how slow and inaccurate dragon attacks are. It would be great to be able to fight them head on, but I don't think that's very possible with the miss rate as high as it is against someone with a more optimized offense.
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 2,882 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 23
    I've slowprepped serpents too, they can't really deal with it that well. Like Armali rightly pointed out, pinshot doesn't last forever, and reapplying costs momentum. If you only try to slow prep by running without planning, obv it's not that hard. But shield/rebound/running mixed together makes it very hard for serp to get anything going. Add in passive/strong active cures, any kind of hard hinder like entangle/web, etc., when applicable.
  • ArmaliArmali Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Don't twist my words to push an agenda. I got beaten because I wasn't careful and likely would've been beaten again if I was less careful, Likewise, the serpent I was fighting had no excuse for dying, because my setups were 100% escapable.
  • CaliraCalira Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 504 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 23
    Serpent has better tools to deal with slow prep than any other momentum class. The raw aff output and burst finisher means that not only do they output lock affs faster than anyone else, but they need fewer of them to actually seal a lock with. Now that Pinshot is buffed, it's also hard to say that the shorter duration is a major downside, since it's the only momentum room hinder that follows the opponent even once they escape - having to re-apply it is a relatively small cost in this situation, since you'll have either won or lost all your momentum against slow prep anyways. Compared to Occultist and Alchemist, who are much slower and both have mechanics that significantly telegraph their win conditions, Serpent is in a really good spot.
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