So I leave for a weekend concert series, and I can't be a priest in Cyrene anymore?

Siduri

Itkovian said:

Siduri said:

I just want to reinstate that when @Antidas stole from Agrias, then Allene, he had no ulterior motives surrounding devo.
Targossas didn't hand him over because Cyrene was trying to force their own foreign laws down their throat while holding a -divine- hostage.

Like @Aodfionn said in his post, asking Targossas to respect an anti-theft treaty it never signed is as lolworthy as us asking Cyrene to punish their citizens for hunting New Hope. And trust me, I've seen a few.

TL;DR: If Cyrene wanted to be proactive about this theft, it would have instead pushed for formalizing an anti-theft treaty with Targ. It instead decided to open itself to being cut off devotion.

But that's not the issue. The issue was basically being told that we were fair game for Targossians as a Neutral City. Since we didn't get special treatment, the reaction was to remove the special treatment Targossians was receiving (being exempt from the preaching ban).

It's not like Cyrene was declaring war on Targossas here... all that was done was treat it the same as it does other cities, just like Targossas was doing. THEN, I imagine, that was seized upon by Targ's leadership as a good opportunity to finally get the Devotionists out of Cyrene.

To be clear, I don't object to that final decision. It's probably for the best. I DO think a more direct approach would have been better for Targossas' image (which is already troubled enough).

Hum, no. That was never the intent. We didn't say, "Oh, look, an occasion to strip Devo".
We were all, "What the? They're biting the hand that feeds them Devo? That's unacceptable."

Kaevan

This has been a wonderful example of how PR campaigns are to be conducted. If one hired their opponents to do their advertising.

Itkovian

And we were "biting" because we were fair game for Targossians.

But no matter, what's done is done. Ultimately this is likely for the best.

Aminah

You know @Dortheron I thought of that taking place too. If they are going to excommunicate these characters, can't they have some huge ceremony where they abduct them and throw them through fire or something?

Or can there be some sort mass trial? That doesn't really go with the RP. But it would be nice to have the crime levied against them publically with a dramatic sentencing.

It would be a huge waste to silently have a few excommunications take place. Our characters deserve, if they go through it, for something visceral and public to happen at the deadline.

Aodfionn

Oh, trust and believe - the ones who choose to stick it out with the excom will be in for quite an interesting ordeal, that will involve being summoned to Targ for a nice little trial. 

Kakotas

@Aodfionn Great Dwarf is bringing Targossas coal this year. Lots and Lots of Coal.

Aodfionn

Kakotas said:

@Aodfionn Great Dwarf is bringing Targossas coal this year. Lots and Lots of Coal.

All the better to burn heretics with. 

#evertheoptimist

Jeslyn

Aodfionn said:

Oh, trust and believe - the ones who choose to stick it out with the excom will be in for quite an interesting ordeal, that will involve being summoned to Targ for a nice little trial. 

Omgomg. Please let this be a thing.

Tahquil

Random thought - would be interesting if Priest was fully recalled to Targossas and the only way rogues and others could get it is via an interview/trial to see if they are worthy.

Halos

Tahquil said:

Random thought - would be interesting if Priest was fully recalled to Targossas and the only way rogues and others could get it is via an interview/trial to see if they are worthy.

This is practically, if not actually, the reality of the situation now.

Or did you mean priest removed as an option for newbies?

Tahquil

Unless they pick Targossas as their start city. But if we are giving it more than an idle thought I would give the priest newbs a starter stripped down class and make them earn devotion/an angel as a rite of passage.

Halos

Tahquil said:

 But if we are giving it more than an idle thought I would give the priest newbs a starter stripped down class and make them earn devotion/an angel as a rite of passage.

I used to wonder why the process of getting occultist's entities is so involved, but summoning a pure-souled seraphic being from a higher plane is just a class change away. It seems too easy, and less of a feat. For storyline purposes they are practically the same action.

The Empyreal Asembly actually did this with spirituality, though it was a bit dissonant. Sometimes rogue priest newbies got their angels before joining the priest House and suddenly they had to do a quest to unlock it again. 

Melodie

Aodfionn said:

Oh, trust and believe - the ones who choose to stick it out with the excom will be in for quite an interesting ordeal, that will involve being summoned to Targ for a nice little trial. 

Man. I know I have absolutely no way to ask this IC, but I would love to watch this. Like seriously.

Brb need unending and undetectable blackwind.

Nim

Ask someone OOCly to log it, then!

Melodie

As interested as I am OOCly, would prefer to know ICly, unfortunately.  

Nim

Ask them to log it. In a letter.

And then sit AFK for a while with it out, and selfishness down.

Silas

For what it's worth, I do agree with @Itkovian's overall point. I think this Devo recall is best for both parties in the end, but I do wish that it had resulted from something grander than a pointless shop theft.

Verrucht's response to that - banning Targ teachings and enemying the AP - obviously played into our hands, and in many ways forced people's hands on how to respond, given that Targ can't tolerate such a slight from people who still have Devo; but the whole thing still just comes off as a little scummy because of how it started.

The OOC vitriol against Targ displayed in this thread by some Cyrene players is still funny to see, though, and goes a long way to dampening any feelings of sympathy most people held. Fortunately, I'm sure most sensible people on both sides still understand that this is a game that we all play together, and that we're actually not all out to ruin other people's good times.

Santar

I'm out to ruin other people's good time.

Ognog

       

Kerria

Cyrene didn't ban Targs teachings, they suspended the carblanch that they had to freely come in and sermon. 

Cyrenian Disporians were still allowed to give sermons. Except that wasn't good enough. The GOD wasn't banned from speaking in Cyrene. So there's two ways the 'message' could of been done.

Instead of reacting like they wanted a potential ally, they sent in people to do everything exactly the wrong way, on purpose to push Cyrene, either away or down... And Cyrene was sure as hell not accepting down, as shown by the vote.

Cyrene asked Targossas to play by their rules. Targossas threatened to take their toys, home and leave if we didn't apologize for making them follow our rules. Cyrene said we don't want to play with you anymore and gave them the toy back. Targossas went running for anyone who would listen to say 'they were being really mean and not follow OUR rules so we told them to amscray.'

The sheer number of times I've seen someone in Targ post a half/quarter/somewhat-a-sneeze of the truth behind things, it's always been a 'well, but they did it first.' or 'they made it worse.'

It was bound to happen, this was the medium, you have shown your own light. 

Stop trying to pee in my yard, it doesn't make yours any greener.

Aelios

Hahaha, I love this! Forum PVP is soo much fun!!


Antidas asked me if we had any laws against robbing Cyrenians. I said, "Are they allies of Targossas, or of the Light?"

"No."

"Then we, honestly, don't care unless you go against the ideals of Lady Aurora, or of Lord Deucalion."


Robbery occurred, and (as I understand it) - virtually every person on HELP TARGOSSAS was messaged regarding 'Punishing one of our own who robbed a Cyrenian shop!' 

Our overwhelming reply? : "...so?"


Apparently this was not good enough! 'WE MUST SEE HIM PUNISHED!'

It was at this point someone decided (in proper Mean Girls fashion) to get 'back' at Targossas by banning any Targossian from preaching within its city walls.

Our reply was something to the inquiry of "Wait, let me get this straight... they want to still USE Devotion, but deny everyone from the City of Good from doing anything Devotion related within Cyrene?"

Needless to say, the bluff was called, and the "Fine, we'll take our toys and go home" statement thrown around a little bit, and we are where we are.

Nim

so wait...

all those innocents out there who'd love to learn it, and you gave devotion to a bunch of neutrals instead?

wtf were you thinking, targossas

Silas

Targossas does not and will not respect the e-sovereignty of any text-city-state, including Targossas, when it comes to doing Good. And no, a Cyrenian preaching on Targossian teachings is not good enough. This was made crystal clear from the start.

Also, we've never had any interest in Cyrene as an ally. Aldair's post to the Diaspora really clarifies that whole issue perfectly.

Melodie

Cyrene's allowed to be offended that a Targossian citizen can literally rob a shop and not even be told off. This is the city of anti-thieves in all forms.

Targossas is allowed to be offended at Cyrene deciding Targossas doesn't get special treatment anymore.

People are allowed to take their toys home and not be friends anymore.

What I'm saying is, stop being offended that the other side is offended. Both are legit reactions. This isn't directed at any single person (or even everyone), but you know who you are.

Kayeil

Let's not pretend like people in Targ haven't been looking for ways to strip devotion from Cyrene so only Targossas could have it anyways. Cyrene knew this. Honestly, I think the majority of the playerbase knew it to some extent. Targossas and even Shallam have always bullied Cyrene to some extent and held devotion over their heads. Let's not forget how crappy Targossas was to Cyrene when Cyrene tried to help them out as refugees and then as a new city.

Tesha

Wow... okay. Now people are rationalizing the ban by saying Aurora and Deucalion could still come preach. There is rationalization, but that certainly isn't it - Cyrene can still go elsewhere to listen to Targ preach, but that wasn't the point of the issue. The point of it was Cyrene was expecting Targ to punish Antidas for breaking Cyrenian law, even though they don't punish Cyrenians for breaking Targ law (hunting innocents).

Stop minimalizing Cyrene's choice and direction by treating them like victims or that Targ forced them on this. This was their choice. They did something that takes a lot of guts and courage. Don't detract from that by acting as though they were helpless.

Jacen

The whole "You guys are good enough that we'll allow you access to Devotion but lol we'll still rob you if we want to" just doesn't feel right. Outside of that, the only problem I see with the situation is that I think the admin should have stepped in awhile back and prevented class-changing to and joining Cyrene as a Devotion user. 

Obviously I don't know how talks between anyone in game has gone, but historically the conversation on the forums has been "Damn it would be nice if Targ could excom all non-Targ Devotionists, but it'll never happen." Hopefully the admin have previously expressed to Cyrene their tenuous grasp on Devotion and perhaps Cyrene's leadership have been preparing for it.

Regardless, it sounds like Cyrene is taking it like a champ and helping its citizen's adjust to the changes, so kudos for that. Perhaps now Targ can fully resolve Good as a badass force of reckoning without Cyrene's neutral yet Devotion-using population watering it down.

Halos

Kayeil said:

Let's not pretend like people in Targ haven't been looking for ways to strip devotion from Cyrene so only Targossas could have it anyways. Cyrene knew this. Honestly, I think the majority of the playerbase knew it to some extent. Targossas and even Shallam have always bullied Cyrene to some extent and held devotion over their heads. Let's not forget how crappy Targossas was to Cyrene when Cyrene tried to help them out as refugees and then as a new city.

I don't think anyone is pretending, at least, not an on an ooc level.

Amarillys

Halos said:

Kayeil said:

Let's not pretend like people in Targ haven't been looking for ways to strip devotion from Cyrene so only Targossas could have it anyways. Cyrene knew this. Honestly, I think the majority of the playerbase knew it to some extent. Targossas and even Shallam have always bullied Cyrene to some extent and held devotion over their heads. Let's not forget how crappy Targossas was to Cyrene when Cyrene tried to help them out as refugees and then as a new city.

I don't think anyone is pretending, at least, not an on an ooc level.

I've heard plenty to suggest not many are pretending IC either I'm all for this. I think it's awesome, even if I'm sad for all those who have to class change... but I think they're going to be just fine/awesome.

Agrias

I've never been happier to not have Devotion and be a Cyrenian, than to have Devotion and be either rogue or in Targossas. I've been advocating this change since I was forced out of Paladin by Aldiar myself. The citizens of Cyrene agreed.  We've made our bed, we're more than happy to lie in it.  And now I'm bored of forums for a few months until I have nothing better to do with my time.