XP Loss/Enemy Territory

Jacen

Antonius said:

@Jacen, what exactly is it that you want? What's holding Hashan back right now other than itself?

To the former, I'll just leave it at no PK XP loss. I'd be happy to expand, but I feel like most people in this thread just roll their eyes when they see that phrase, so why bother.

To the latter, the current conflict system and PK rules really punish upstarts from happening. As long as you don't step on any toes, you're in a shell of protection. When you step out of that shell, you open yourself to individual and organizational retribution. Your opponents are going to respond with force to convince you to stop doing what you're doing, or at least to dish out what they consider your fair share of consequences to be, which can range from killing you two or five times for attempting to defile a shrine, or camping the city gates and killing soldiers and non-soldiers alike who walk out, for killing Beatrice that one time.

I mean, you have an less experienced, less artied, smaller PK group trying to start up and get involved in conflict. That group is going to lose. A lot. And then, not only are you gonna get your ass kicked while your stretching out and trying new things, you're going to get punished for it afterwards, repeatedly, and in several ways. I just wanna shift the brunt of that punishment onto the organization's shoulders, so we could take our time and feel our way around, and not feel pressured to maximize learning efficiency right out the gate, and not have to pay for trying new things that are really to the benefit of the whole game.

Herenicus

STRIKE FIRST. STRIKE HARD. NO MERCY SIR.

git gud

Nemutaur

Jacen said:

Antonius said:

@Jacen, what exactly is it that you want? What's holding Hashan back right now other than itself?

..., which can range from killing you two or five times for attempting to defile a shrine,

Not allowed, if they don't have a writ or the contract and you made it back to your city after defiling they are not allowed to attack you for it anymore. Hire them and if they keep persisting after you inform them that they can't attack you once the defilement is over without the writ or contract you'll have to issue. Also they can only kill you (to true death i suppose) once for one incident.

or camping the city gates and killing soldiers and non-soldiers alike who walk out, for killing Beatrice that one time.

Also not allowed. They can't just randomly kill anybody they want. Once again get the people to hire and if it persists you will have to issue.

Bluef

Jacen said:

Antonius said:

@Jacen, what exactly is it that you want? What's holding Hashan back right now other than itself?

To the former, I'll just leave it at no PK XP loss. I'd be happy to expand, but I feel like most people in this thread just roll their eyes when they see that phrase, so why bother.

To the latter, the current conflict system and PK rules really punish upstarts from happening. As long as you don't step on any toes, you're in a shell of protection. When you step out of that shell, you open yourself to individual and organizational retribution. Your opponents are going to respond with force to convince you to stop doing what you're doing, or at least to dish out what they consider your fair share of consequences to be, which can range from killing you two or five times for attempting to defile a shrine, or camping the city gates and killing soldiers and non-soldiers alike who walk out, for killing Beatrice that one time.

I mean, you have an less experienced, less artied, smaller PK group trying to start up and get involved in conflict. That group is going to lose. A lot. And then, not only are you gonna get your ass kicked while your stretching out and trying new things, you're going to get punished for it afterwards, repeatedly, and in several ways. I just wanna shift the brunt of that punishment onto the organization's shoulders, so we could take our time and feel our way around, and not feel pressured to maximize learning efficiency right out the gate, and not have to pay for trying new things that are really to the benefit of the whole game.

You're not going to learn by having things handed to you on an easier mode of gameplay. You also, frankly, won't learn if you are learning from each other (other midbies). Recruit more experienced, more artied PKers to join you. 

Herenicus

You could try hiring mercenaries for a renewable 5 year contract, setting aside some credits from the city treasury. And when the city runs out of credits, have Sarapis wire Hashan another grand until the subsidies are no longer necessary. 

Bluef

I'm sure that suggestion has some sort of facetious root that I shouldn't pull, but part of Hashan's problem has (traditionally) been that they lean too much on outsiders. They've taken a lot of criticism for Mhaldor and Ashtan coming to their defense in the last RL decade or so of gameplay. Building up from within, by reaching out to others would seem a much better way to regain some reputation along with skilled players.

Edit: Qualifying statements because forums.

Herenicus

Make citizenry a term of the mercenary contract, so they're stuck making Hashani friends and putting down Hashani roots while they're drawing a paycheck. 

Jacen

Also, Hashan isn't really in a position to offer more rewards. We don't have the credit income that the more focused PK cities do. Which again, leads to more positive feedback for those cities: They can afford city improvements, which gives them offensive and defensive boosts. Depending on the success of the Renaissance, Hashan may have to consider removing an improvement soon. We can't promise droves of credits for potential PKers. Those are benefits that winners can offer.

Bluef

Jacen said:

Also, Hashan isn't really in a position to offer more rewards. We don't have the credit income that the more focused PK cities do. Which again, leads to more positive feedback for those cities: They can afford city improvements, which gives them offensive and defensive boosts. Depending on the success of the Renaissance, Hashan may have to consider removing an improvement soon. We can't promise droves of credits for potential PKers. Those are benefits that winners can offer.

The kind of players Hashan needs don't join for credits or gold. They join because they like the challenge, because they're given the opportunity to (re) build something, because they can get their friends to come along and have fun going up against other friends. You're really looking at this through the lens of a lot of negativity, when you should be seeing opportunity. 

Herenicus

Organize and ask management for better working conditions. You have nothing to lose but your chains.

Dracen

That defeatist attitude won't help Hashan either. Make a stand with what you have. Push harder, learn to kill, blah blah blah. Yeah, sounds like 'git gud breh' but that's just what you -need- to hear. You're running world-wide rampages at the moment that mostly non-Hashani are participating in. Nothing wrong with that, but... You have to get the wins on the inside first. Once you got those pretty well, and your fighters are doing better, send out the challenege, let slip the hogs of war. Shout to the world that you want more. That sort of thing. But "OmgwecantgivethesameasPKcities" is a crap excuse. Targ had combatants, and didn't have -crap- to offer. Cyrene doesn't have the "pk rewards" like Ashtan/Mhaldor/Eleusis supposedly all do, but they've put out fighters. You -gotta- stop being so pessimistic about it, bud.

Nim

Credits are kind of a negative feedback loop, in that the benefit gained reduces per credit spent.

At first, you get lessons, which give incredible gains.

But then you get into artefacts, which are monumentally more expensive for less gain per artefact. A Lv1 artefact weapon has nothing on transing the relative skill.

And then the higher level artefact it is, the more expensive it gets.

Language learning is the same way, as are learning trade skills.

Of course, these things are largely balanced by real life financial resources rather than any game conditions, except for language learning which is balanced by in-game financial resources, which can be boosted by real life financial resources, but with in-game economical considerations.

edit: Of course, there are positive feedback loops regarding credits as well - combat tournaments being a major example. Subject to player skill, yes, but when talking game mechanics, one must consider all factors.

Herenicus

Before we conclude that this is a problem of player motivation, @Dracen, I would please ask you to consider whether it might also be a design issue. And I'll tell you what, you don't have to participate in my thread for free: I'll offer you 25cr if you read the brief article I link to and describe one Achaean NFL and how it counteracts Achaea's many PFLs.

Jacen

Bluef said:

Jacen said:

Also, Hashan isn't really in a position to offer more rewards. We don't have the credit income that the more focused PK cities do. Which again, leads to more positive feedback for those cities: They can afford city improvements, which gives them offensive and defensive boosts. Depending on the success of the Renaissance, Hashan may have to consider removing an improvement soon. We can't promise droves of credits for potential PKers. Those are benefits that winners can offer.

The kind of players Hashan needs don't join for credits or gold. They join because they like the challenge, because they're given the opportunity to (re) build something, because they can get their friends to come along and have fun going up against other friends. You're really looking at this through the lens of a lot of negativity, when you should be seeing opportunity. 

So... how long does that have to not happen before we consider that it might not ever happen, and the issue might stem from the fact that there's really no reason for that to happen?

Herenicus

CLAP YOUR HANDS, @JACEN

Bluef

Jacen said:

Bluef said:

Jacen said:

Also, Hashan isn't really in a position to offer more rewards. We don't have the credit income that the more focused PK cities do. Which again, leads to more positive feedback for those cities: They can afford city improvements, which gives them offensive and defensive boosts. Depending on the success of the Renaissance, Hashan may have to consider removing an improvement soon. We can't promise droves of credits for potential PKers. Those are benefits that winners can offer.

The kind of players Hashan needs don't join for credits or gold. They join because they like the challenge, because they're given the opportunity to (re) build something, because they can get their friends to come along and have fun going up against other friends. You're really looking at this through the lens of a lot of negativity, when you should be seeing opportunity. 

So... how long does that have to not happen before we consider that it might not ever happen, and the issue might stem from the fact that there's really no reason for that to happen?

Please don't pretend that you've already attempted this recently. Your city hasn't. Plus, I'll be forced to list the numerous instances when Hashan has actually bitten off its own nose to spite its face. 

It's really poor form to come on the forums and complain that everything is a mechanic issue when you've not even attempted to change the things that people keep citing as being unattractive about your city and that have cost it players who are interested in PK in the past and that continue to prevent it from recruiting new fighters now.

Why bitching in this vein may be a release of frustration to you, the fact that whatever is said here you just loop back around to "That's won't work," "We're not winners," or "It's an in-game mechanic thing" is annoying as all hell for those who are honestly trying to help you sort some things out. 

Mishgul

How do you not know who Tuerney is .-.

I just realised that there are people here who were probably born after Tuerney went dormant

I feel old

Jacen

What exactly are you saying we haven't attempted recently? What things have been listed as unattractive? I don't recall reading any specifics that you seem to be implying that I'm willingly ignoring. Could you point me to those posts?

Herenicus

Bluef said:

Please don't pretend that you've already attempted this recently. Your city hasn't. Plus, I'll be forced to list the numerous instances when Hashan has actually bitten off its own nose to spite its face. 

It's really poor form to come on the forums and complain that everything is a mechanic issue when you've not even attempted to change the things that people keep citing as being unattractive about your city and that have cost it players who are interested in PK in the past and that continue to prevent it from recruiting new fighters now.

Why bitching in this vein may be a release of frustration to you, the fact that whatever is said here you just loop back around to "That's won't work," "We're not winners," or "It's an in-game mechanic thing" is annoying as all hell for those who are honestly trying to help you sort some things out. 

We will be thrilled to watch the Order of Dreams blossom into the kind of game hegemony that only comes through wisdom and discipline. Please share your best practices.

Bluef

Jacen said:

What exactly are you saying we haven't attempted recently? What things have been listed as unattractive? I don't recall reading any specifics that you seem to be implying that I'm willingly ignoring. Could you point me to those posts?

In order to garner interest in your city, you need to be the city doing the most interesting things. This is true both for roleplay and for PK. 

Unfortunately though, Hashan has a reputation for calling for help, for complaining on the forums after skirmishes, and for not really appreciating what few fighters they have. The thing to do is to change all that. Start fresh. Determine yourselves not to ask for aid, to go it alone, to suck it up, and to truly show appreciation for those who take an interest in PK in the city.

One small example of this last point: It's always ridiculous when you look at a city logs and see nobodies cityfavoured for doing nothing more than showing up to a fight. When you can honours the people in the military and you know whoever is Rank 3 or 4 only earned that rank by being logged in during raids, not necessarily achieving anything in terms of their PK prowess. One method might be to start by stripping all that back. 

Hashan also has a reputation for enemying people wantonly. There are people who genuinely are interested in roleplaying, fighting, and possibly even becoming allied with Hashan who aren't given a chance because they did something silly at Crossroads one time and are now enemied. It's the same kind of thing you see when an overzealous Chancellor starts setting fines to shopkeepers with sigils they didn't approve (when there are 5 shops up for sale they can't find buyers for). Why make enemies (or keep them) when people want to be peaceable? Why heat the pot when there aren't enough ingredients in it to make a proper stew?

Most of all though, think outside the box. Do the unexpected. City of Darkness should be a place of mystery and nontraditional recruitment tactics could play into that image very nicely. Instead of thinking you need to buy people off in order to put together a PK team, look for an unorthodox way to achieve the same result. You have scores of enemies who might be something else if you took measures to resolve their issues with the city as just one example. Don't look at the problem and say we can't fix it. Examine the box the problem is contained in and then demolish it.

Make the atmosphere for PK an attractive one, and fighters will come to you in the end. 

Nemutaur

I think Hhaos, Lanar and Kasa were roaming in UW and Annwyn and wherever else today ganking people. That's a really great start. If those 3 can form a core group for Hashan it'll be something you can build on.

Here's the catch though, some self righteous whowever will feel the need to raid Hashan because of a gank. They will tell you or whoever that it is thanks to the roaming gank crew and if they want it to stop they need to curb in the crew. Don't, do not interfere with that core group and just let them do their thing.

If you show them support by telling them that it was demanded and you told the raider to go f- him/herself they will feel appreciated. They will want to stick around and get better so that the raid doesn't happen again, or if it does they can do more/better.

Herenicus

You are the chosen one, @Jacen. It could be no other way. Someone must pay for our PFLs.

Bluef

Herenicus said:

Bluef said:

Please don't pretend that you've already attempted this recently. Your city hasn't. Plus, I'll be forced to list the numerous instances when Hashan has actually bitten off its own nose to spite its face. 

It's really poor form to come on the forums and complain that everything is a mechanic issue when you've not even attempted to change the things that people keep citing as being unattractive about your city and that have cost it players who are interested in PK in the past and that continue to prevent it from recruiting new fighters now.

Why bitching in this vein may be a release of frustration to you, the fact that whatever is said here you just loop back around to "That's won't work," "We're not winners," or "It's an in-game mechanic thing" is annoying as all hell for those who are honestly trying to help you sort some things out. 

We will be thrilled to watch the Order of Dreams blossom into the kind of game hegemony that only comes through wisdom and discipline. Please share your best practices.

Considering that the Emnia Ecstasia has doubled in size since I took it over - Yeah, you wouldn't be doing yourself any harm by listening to someone like me. But by all means continue to condescend. Someone like me who has held every Ministry position apart from Steward, served as Ambassador (and a Regent) for 2 RL years, and ran a very successful House that flourished due to unorthodox strategies in recruitment, wouldn't know a thing about this. Oh, by the way, I also successfully led a campaign that essentially destroyed Twilight's shrine influence in the realm for centuries. But by all means, tell me I don't know how to recruit fighters for a cause. If that's what it takes to get your rocks off, get gud.

Trey

Herenicus said:

You are the chosen one, @Jacen. It could be no other way. Someone must pay for our PFLs.

 

Jules

Here, check out some crappy rules that were just (fortunately) soundly curb-stomped in one of my Imperian orgs:

                          

__________________________________________________________________________________
                                 DECORUM

III. You must address other members of the guild by their proper title in public.  There is no
excuse for not knowing another's proper title as they can be found in GHELP Leadership.

IV. Members of any profession but the Priesthood must salute their superiors.  Members of the
Priesthood must respectfully bow to their superiors.  You needn't salute or bow every time the same
higher ranked member passes by, so long as you have done so recently; otherwise it would just be
overbearing.  To salute properly, use JUSTISALUTE. To bow properly, use CLERICBOW.  It is good
manners for a higher ranked guild member to SALUTE back, although not entirely rude to simply return
the salute or bow with a NOD of acknowledgement.

V. Excessive public displays of affection, familiarity, or aggression must
be avoided. Showing someone you love them is fine, being friendly
is fine. Attempting to expand your bloodline at the Shuk is not tolerated.

VI. Disputes within the guild or cities will be handled quietly and with the
utmost respect, utilizing a calm demeanor. If one cannot maintain a calm
demeanor, it is appropriate to ask for a guild or city intermediary.

VII. Messages written to public news boards will be scribed using the same
demeanor as if your words are spoken to a city or guild official.

VIII. At all times you will listen to your senior officer in combat and in public matters. If you
feel that said person is abusing their rank you are to report it to a secretary or the Lord Marshall.
 At no time are you to take matters into your own hands.

__________________________________________________________________________________
                                PUNISHMENT

I. Each situation is different and unique but in most cases have a similar basis. Breaking any of
these laws can result in either a warning, guild disfavor and even removal from the guild. It is up
to the individual what punishment is merited with exception to removal from the guild which will be
decided by a council vote.  Breaking the Laws of Decorum will likely result in a negative
consequence.  Acting out due to receiving a negative consequence may land you a disfavor.

II. The only way one can be removed from the guild without a council vote is if
they have committed an obvious crime resulting in treason or have five
disfavors within a four year time frame and show no signs of improvement.

Okay, so bear with me here a moment.  A guy who'd been dormant for a very long time came back to a vibrant city and guild that PKs *all* of the time.  What is his priority?  Try to resurrect the above turdstool as an active law.  Our GM gently but firmly said "no, not happening". 

At one point, this crap had been taken seriously.  Mercifully, the guild was pretty much dead when the aforementioned GM and another very capable guy took it over (orgs getting this kind of chance at rebirth doesn't seem to usually happen with Achaean orgs, because there's usually just enough people to hang on to the current power structure, no matter how awful it is).  Lucky me, I happened to come out of a looooooooong dormancy at just the right time. 

PK-ers, in particular, will not tolerate this crap.  They just won't (and a lot of the rest of us don't like it too much either).  That's not to say there aren't leaders, not at all.  It's not even to say that we never salute each other, but when we do, it's genuinely friendly and respectful.  We also promote you if you're at all active and participate!  But it does make me painfully aware that we really are exactly one shitty leader away from a lot less fun time.   

One thing Ashtan seems to have done is to keep this kind of thing from getting out of hand (at least in the big picture, I have no doubt they've had moments because this kind of behavior seems to be very deeply ingrained in a certain kind of gamer).  In the right hands some of this stuff might even be okay, but what it works out to is very thinly disguised shitty e-rank pulling justification - and almost always from the guy who's almost as crappy at combat as I am (or, unbelievably, crappier). 

This is the sort of nonsense that seems to abound in Achaea under an all too often achingly thin veneer of "RP", this and not having clear goals for an org, and sometimes, I wish admin would just step in and reset things if it's really needed (especially with what I mentioned about our orgs never dying gracefully).  You can't have pacifists and warhawks in the same org and have it be awesome, for example.  Oh sure, it sounds like it could have some upsides, but in reality it just tears the org apart. 

Shirszae

Mhaldor has somewhat less overbearing version of similar rules and they seem to do perfectly fine.

Cooper

tl;dr plz

Jules

They seem to be doing really well lately, and part of that seems to be exactly because there have been problems in the past, Mhaldorians seem to have become almost super attenuated to how this kind of RP can come off to the person on the receiving end (going by relatively recent discussions where this came up).  They've also implemented a clan so that people know what the heck is going on, and that it really is intended as RP.  This kind of stuff really is dynamite though, as far as I'm concerned, and requires the sort of careful handling most of us just aren't capable of, because realistically, with something like Mhaldor in particular, even if you really don't have a bad attitude, it seems a LOT easier to get wrong than to get right. 

Aalm

Trey said:

Herenicus said:

You are the chosen one, @Jacen. It could be no other way. Someone must pay for our PFLs.

 

@Trey : time to drag official Achaea forums into the confessional booth, and all of us can then confess all the sins we've committed on Achaea.

The Catholic Church has existed roughly 2000 years. By the time what I am talking about is finished, the Catholic Church will have existed for 4000.

May God save us all.

Jules

Cooper said:

tl;dr plz

Well, you don't have to read all of my failquote (the would-be laws).  Best tl;dr I can do is that when you bury people in rules as a bureaucracy grows (and especially rules that emphasize deference to e-rank), it almost always gets used by the wrong people for the wrong reasons, people don't like it, and PK-ers seem especially turned off by it.  Ashtan generally manages not to do this.  Also, your org needs clear goals and everyone needs to be on board (factions within a faction seem "interesting" but actually suck).  Would be happy with admin resetting orgs that need to die from time to time (since it's probably more than players can usually manage to rout a sufficiently entrenched power structure).