XP Loss/Enemy Territory

Bluef

Herenicus said:

Bluef said:

Herenicus said:

Of course, @Bluef.

I would offer that "positive/negative" in the sense of feedback loops does not correlate to "good/bad." A PFL makes it harder for competitors to catch up, making the early game (in this case, as early as 1997) more important.  An NFL makes the present day, or late game, more important. If you liked Mario Kart, you like negative feedback loops. From the article: 

As an example, consider a “Kart-style” racing game like Mario Kart. In racing games, play is more interesting if the player is in the middle of a pack of cars rather than if they are way out in front or lagging way behind on their own (after all, there is more interaction if your opponents are close by). As a result, the de facto standard in that genre of play is to add a negative feedback loop: as the player gets ahead of the pack, the opponents start cheating, finding better power-ups and getting impossible bursts of speed to help them catch up. This makes it more difficult for the player to maintain or extend a lead. This particular feedback loop is sometimes referred to as “rubber-banding” because the cars behave as if they are connected by rubber bands, pulling the leaders and losers back to the center of the pack.

Likewise, the reverse is true. If the player falls behind, they will find better power-ups and the opponents will slow down to allow the player to catch up. This makes it more difficult for a player who is behind to fall further behind. Again, both of these are examples of negative feedback loops; “negative” refers to the fact that a dynamic becomes weaker with iteration, and has nothing to do with whether it has a positive or negative effect on the player’s standing in the game.

Did you reference "as early as 1997" in your post because that's the year of the game's creation? if so, what specific positive feedback loops do you see as being in place from that specific time that have made it more difficult for other competitors, in terms of cities, to catch up? 

Because creating new cities does not automatically create new players, populating a new city depends upon individuals willing to lay aside existing privileges/advantages to begin again. Isn't it reasonable to presume that the most valuable members of these pre-existing organizations would be the most deeply entrenched in an existing power structure that, in many cases, they built themselves? What did that leave for our 3rd man on the scene? What do you suppose life was like way back in 1999 for our fledgling city? 

There are have been numerous instances in Achaea's history where top roleplayers and PKers have left one faction for another though. These players were wiling to lay aside those existing privileges for the opportunities afforded them elsewhere. Likewise, given that power in any given city fluxes with its patronage, and we've always had a huge turnover in active divine, I'm not sure that point bears out under scrutiny. 

If you're intending to suggest that Houses that are last to go through the Renaissance have some kind of advantage, I might concur; however, they also have several disadvantages. Their playerbase feels as though they are limbo. They sometimes have no clear sense of the way forward or if anything they are doing (beyond possibly PK) is worthwhile. As the Renaissance begins to shape each new city's structure though, new players are drawn to it. Old player leave because they can't get on board with what's transpired. There is still flux.

Having joined Hashan at the cusp of the introduction of its Houses (in the era just after Autoclass), I was the third man on the scene and I had no problem rising to power in the newly existing structures (even though they were steeped in a pre-existing playerbase), no qualms about giving up years of my life to defend against odds that were no better than they are today. When I got to the top, it was argued that I remade the Spirit Walkers completely from the ground up; even so, I had no trouble leaving that all behind to pursue other avenues of gameplay when I no longer could get on board with the vision for the organization and city. There were disadvantages to doing so, but the challenge didn't prevent me or anyone else who left with me to start anew.

I'm curious because in a game where people create alts on a daily basis and quickly (within weeks if not days) can get them to exactly the same level as their main character (and decked out with all the same artifacts), the argument that people can't catch up seems moot. 

Even Jhui cannot afford to create another Jhui. Ernam, bless his heart, would be eating out of garbage cans behind Panera Bread if we forced such a thing upon his pocketbook. Let's not underestimate the value of our respective investments. Not many of us can afford to clone our main.

With all due respect, I believe you vastly underestimate the capacity for players to deck out a new character. Ernam has more than one fully capable character, for just one example, as do I. But that wasn't the point of my statement. The fact remains that cities can attract new mains and new alts. There isn't one stagnant pool of individual characters to draw from. If a place seems like a fun and rewarding space to play in..well, if you build it, they will come.

In addition, the article itself states that feedback loops, whatever their kind, will always be perceived as good and bad, depending on a player's perception. This would suggest that the feedback loop you feel Mhaldor and Hashan are currently under, and which is affecting their motivation to log in and defend, is not necessarily an issue of a poor game mechanic, but that it is your perception that it is that is really at issue.  Do you think that's true? 

Oh, absolutely. I disagree that the presence or absence of PFLs or NFLs can be chalked up to subjective perception, they exist or they don't, but individual decisions on whether to like or dislike the impact of these loops will depend on the individual. Someone who REALLY wants to win a race will not appreciate the last car getting a power mushroom. Get gud.

I don't believe there are any power mushrooms in the mechanics you're talking about changing. As has already been stated the Eye of Proteus alone is quite a damaging effect - one that arguably is the reason for drawing out these conflicts time-wise in some cases. But your point that 'Someone who REALLY wants to win," suggests a mindset that someone does win and lose in a city raid. Sure, there is destruction, but it's a battle, not the war, that's inevitably won. People should be more inclined to view it that way and there would be less rants about such things all around IMO.

Triak

I'm going to spill the (not so) secret sauce behind Ashtan's success.  The core group of players are all friends.

While most of the factions in this game spend their time destroying themselves from within, we don't.

Tesha

The $300k-400k invested into artifacts probably doesn't hurt either.

Herenicus

Welcome to the conversation, @Triak. I don't think it is quite fair to suggest that lasting friendships are exclusive to one organization. We are all glad that you have found friends that you enjoy playing with and vice versa. 

Nemutaur

We just got raided by Eleusis and they didn't consult us beforehand. We got smashed, they blew a tank and we smashed them. It wasn't horrible, wow.

Herenicus

Nemutaur said:

We just got raided by Eleusis and they didn't consult us beforehand. We got smashed, they blew a tank and we smashed them. It wasn't horrible, wow.

Now if only every raid could be a wow raid! 

Triak

You must be really tired hiking all the way up to the moral high ground.

I can appreciate someone trying to have a productive dialogue, but your passive aggressive condescending posts don't reflect that.

Herenicus

Triak said:

You must be really tired hiking all the way up to the moral high ground.

I can appreciate someone trying to have a productive dialogue, but your passive aggressive condescending posts don't reflect that.

I apologize where I have given that impression. I hope we can continue any discourse here as fellow hobbyists, focused on the issues, instead of looking for insults behind every word. Neither of us is wealthy enough (or really knows each other well enough) to deny any benefit of the doubt on the forums.

But we digress. 

Merador

Tesha said:

The $300k-400k invested into artifacts probably doesn't hurt either.

Wut

Nemutaur

Merador said:

Tesha said:

The $300k-400k invested into artifacts probably doesn't hurt either.

Wut

Must be canadian dollars.

Kinilan

...don't even start Nemu.

Tesha

I think Ashtan's the most artied city in the game, excluding Cyrene which is kind of irrelevant - judging from the abundance of fully-artied people, anyways. That would definitely contribute to their success. The $300k-400k was a guess, I have no idea about how much has actually been spent, but it feels like a lot compared to other cities. It's definitely not only arties though, as shown by Cyrene, but it definitely helps. It's clear Ashtan's success comes from much more than the fact that everyone is friends. I don't think there's a single city where the upper fighters aren't all friendly with one another. Alrena/Rangor, Hasar/Xer, Antidas/anyone (he's super nice), etc.

Riashain

Dislike @Nemutaur

Kinilan

Please name all the "fully artied' people in Ashtan

Herenicus

I think we risk losing sight of the forest for the trees, blasting each other with contextless facts. Please exercise your best discretion.

Silas

Jacen said:

You want to keep things balanced and interesting. Why haven't we had an A-list fighter come to Hashan or Cyrene and catapult them into the world conflict stage, in all these years? The game doesn't reward that behavior, and it doesn't encourage balance among the cities. 

Hashan had Tuerney for years and ran him off. I appreciate that people are trying to turn around Hashan's reputation, but there's nothing to suggest to the outside world that this has been done, with Hashan still sniping at each other on the forums on a frequent basis.

Herenicus

Blaming Hashan for its reputation is punching down

Shirszae

I'll just say that its been a fair while since I've seen Hashan snipping each other in the forums.  In any case, and more than anything, I agree with @Dracen's post about most people not going to Hashan for the fighting.  I think people ought be more worried about playing to Hashan's strengths instead of wanting it to become what it is not (A PK hub)

Jacen

The hell even is a Tuerney? I've been playing since like '09 and I've never heard of the guy.

Besides, that points more to circumstances elevating Hashan out of a trough, rather than the system encouraging it. An org shouldn't rise and fall on the activity of a single player. Hashan did some raiding under me, and when I pulled back due to burnout, it ground to a halt. 

Instead of depending on a dumbass wannabe PKer to fight the uphill battle and struggle against the grain because he's too stupid to go somewhere easier, the system should encourage upstarts. You don't have to hand them wins, but you also don't have to punish them for trying.

Tharvis

'06 here, most I've ever seen of Tuerney in my entire play time was his shadow pet randomly walking around

Herenicus

Give it another 10 years, fellas. The system works!

Silas

Honestly, kids today.

Antonius

@Jacen, what exactly is it that you want? What's holding Hashan back right now other than itself?

Herenicus

Silas said:

Honestly, kids today.

Back when we were bootstrapping ourselves without boots or straps, kids would've jumped all over a 1cr bounty for Achaea's NFLs.

Let me raise that bounty to 3cr, limit one per player. 

Merador

Are you getting paid per click for this loop stuff?

Mishgul

Not knowing who Tuerney is, and that event that led up to the famous incident with Cain.

Herenicus

Merador said:

Are you getting paid per click for this loop stuff?

What?! Are you suggesting that I moderate this Idea thread as some sick species of leisure? Sir, you presume too far!

Bluef

Jacen said:

The hell even is a Tuerney? I've been playing since like '09 and I've never heard of the guy.

Besides, that points more to circumstances elevating Hashan out of a trough, rather than the system encouraging it. An org shouldn't rise and fall on the activity of a single player. Hashan did some raiding under me, and when I pulled back due to burnout, it ground to a halt. 

Instead of depending on a dumbass wannabe PKer to fight the uphill battle and struggle against the grain because he's too stupid to go somewhere easier, the system should encourage upstarts. You don't have to hand them wins, but you also don't have to punish them for trying.

If you don't know Tuerney or his history with Hashan, that's... I can't even begin to comment on that.

Fighters in Hashan were a thing at one time, because they were plied with advantages, actively recruited and heavily rewarded for their efforts. There's nothing stopping Hashan or its Houses from doing this today instead of building yet another series of rooms that no one will ever visit because everyone hangs out in the lab or at Crossroads. If you want to be upstarts, then start up something new. Don't rely on this identity that no one really understands yet to bring people to the City of Night. 

In addition, I'd argue that Hashan hasn't lost a single player. They've lost dozens. Every time a House walks away or is forced out, every time players are enemied for ridiculous reasons, you lose a potential ally and defender. Hell, one clan offered to not only purchase but defend and replenish an icon for one of your Houses just to settle an old score; that was flatly declined for no reason other than people didn't want to bury the hatchet quite yet.

Take a page from Mhaldor. Their Crucible of Slaves is a pretty great idea. If you want to go the route of playing up the Darkwalkerness, then do something unexpected instead. Recruit enemies. Recruit people away from other organizations that no one would ever suspect you even being in negotiations with. Make Hashan a place fighters want to be, and they'll likely flock to it for the chance to turn around an underdog city against all odds. But you may have to get out of your own way to make that happen.

Skye

Mishgul said:

Not knowing who Tuerney is, and that event that led up to the famous incident with Cain.

Tuerney was so awesome that Gods jockeyed for him to be in their Order. How many other players have had that same privilege?

Herenicus

You can only do what you can do, @Jacen. But if you don't want to spend your leisure hour turning water into wine, you don't have to.