XP Loss/Enemy Territory

Mishgul

inner herenicus (INNERENICUS?): If thats what it is, that is what it is. However the past has to stay where it is, we can't change it and anyone who could already has changed it so we have what we have. How do we take responsibility for making things about Hashan seem positive?

Kinilan

No, You need to be more patronizing. Do it right Carmain!

Jovolo

Nemutaur: "I think Hhaos, Lanar and Kasa were roaming in UW and Annwyn and wherever else today ganking people. That's a really great start. If those 3 can form a core group for Hashan it'll be something you can build on.

Here's the catch though, some self righteous whowever will feel the need to raid Hashan because of a gank. They will tell you or whoever that it is thanks to the roaming gank crew and if they want it to stop they need to curb in the crew. Don't, do not interfere with that core group and just let them do their thing.

If you show them support by telling them that it was demanded and you told the raider to go f- him/herself they will feel appreciated. They will want to stick around and get better so that the raid doesn't happen again, or if it does they can do more/better."

This is a really important point that shouldn't be glossed over by the Hashani players in this thread trying to make a change. I tried to start a core group of players in the city when the changes to their ideology (which made them seem appealing at the time) started to occur, with the likes of seftin/vaehl etc, and was met with such ridiculous opposition because we started to bring more PK attention to the city. Granted, this was nearly a year ago, so things may have changed since then. In contrast however, I did the same thing with Targossas a while back and was surprised to see the enthusiasm and support behind such a group, and provided us with the means to work our way up through the city. The difference? Targossas (and Mhaldor when we played there) made it fun.

This has nothing to do with mechanics, nor PK XP loss. What you're experiencing is the general attitude of a city. As I said though, of course, this may have changed! But pay attention to what Nemutaur said: look at your city, find those people interested in combat, support them, give them incentives to keep going, bring the different combatants together and form a small group and build it. But ffs, do not try and get in their way, and if anyone does? Warn them, give them a CDF, whatever. Just don't let them get in the way.

Herenicus

"Bringing more PK attention to the city" 

Why can't it just stay a bit longer between the combatants who are enjoying it, Jovolo? We have this movie before: bad times drive a wedge between the PK and noncom parts of a city. And while we have to make accommodations for each other, to a point, expecting anyone to willingly hand over their gaming hour isn't realistic. The damage from an organizational standpoint is as predictable as it is preventable

Jovolo

I think I said this earlier in the thread, but non-combatants have every right to be non-combatants. By bringing PK attention to the city, all that really happens is the providence of opportunity to get involved in combat from a more safe, less-consequential standpoint in the form of city defence. If you don't want to? Then you don't have to!

What I'm referring to is in fact the complete opposite of what you mention: It's the non-combatants that force their own standards on the combatants. 

You speak as if non-combatants are somehow pulled into combat which they don't wish to be a part of. Can you cite examples of where this would happen?

Mishgul

world war 1.

That said, non coms do get stuck in this horrific catch of "not defending? get looked down on and lose reputation and then find it harder to progress" or "Defend? Sucks, dies a lot, feeds tank, feeds defilers, loses objectives." 

The city soldier status needs a bit more respect from the players, but the opt in system really needs to be made more opt in. It is sort of pseudo opt in because no matter how you swing it,  people who don't defend get pushed into the second class citizen list in a lot of cities, and a lot of people that are already involved/enjoy combat try to peer pressure others into being involved and having fun.

I am guilty of doing this in my pomp myself, and I see it a lot in various places. 

Jovolo

They should have qq'd

Shirszae

Jovolo said:

You speak as if non-combatants are somehow pulled into combat which they don't wish to be a part of. Can you cite examples of where this would happen?

When a city make city defence non-optional, and non-combatants get into trouble for preferring to do other things instead of defending. 

Jovolo

That's not a mechanical issue.

The problems you're talking about are created by players (and their attitudes). There are plenty of other things that non-combatants can do to help in a city, if they're being forced into fighting when they don't want to, then your city has bad leadership.

Shirszae

Jovolo said:

That's not a mechanical issue.

It still has everything to do with the subject at hand, and with people objecting to pk attention being brought to the city. 

Mishgul

It depends how you view it, but the system itself force players to feel that the impact of each player is important, and it is sort of true. 4 sentinels that hold down maul will kill anyone regardless of com or non com status. 

Mishgul

Because of this, being a bossy ass allows you to force your team mates to not enjoy the game, which is why defending sucks.

Mishgul

and then you fall into this conundrum of whether it is right to abuse the consent of a non com and drag them into the PK void, and the responsibility of each player, and the responsibility of the administrator.

Defending sucking is not a rule of thumb generally. If the right players are around, then it is easy enough to make it fun, but defending, while easier than raiding, is more difficult to organise. I have not once said to Malifuus "Hey Ashtan will raid in a bit, lets get ready to defend." It's not a thing. Predicting when you will get attacked is not a thing. 

but sometimes we just happen to be around together and we would just roll with it and it will be fun. Sometimes I end up defending with someone like Hasar and we just end up killing each other while the raid is going on because fuck Hasar.

In the end though, I know what to expect by playing Achaea and I tend to accept it. If I can make a difference somewhere I will, when I can't, it is a game, and i will do something else that is enjoyable and a more productive use of my time.

Achaea isn't a roleplaying game that takes kindly to people that don't enjoy combat, especially in the extreme cities. Is it something we can change? Definitely, sure. Will it? Depends on who is logged in at the time I guess. I'll probably go with no.

Jarrod

Worth noting from the feedback discussion that sanctioned raiding is a pretty obvious negative feedback loop, due to the font.

-The longer you stay in the city, the more damage you take up to an uncapped amount, making it harder to stay in the city.
-As the aggressors, killing army members is worth less tank charge every consecutive kill, making it harder to build charge as time passes (after level 1).

It was designed to work as a negative feedback loop and it does.

Herenicus

Can't raiders just rotate themselves in and out to avoid the effect?

Mishgul

or have the bulk of them sat out with transportation prepared.

Merador

Herenicus said:

Can't raiders just rotate themselves in and out to avoid the effect?

Are we talking about what people CAN do or what people DO do?

Herenicus

I can acknowledge that over the course of 90 minutes or however long it takes to charge up, the Eye of Proteus serves an NFL function. I have yet to hear of an instance where it made a bad time good. If people have available leadership and a fair shot, they're not worried about the Eye. If they don't, they're not going to wait around an hour and a half.

Jarrod

You say that like the only purpose of the eye effect is to wait for 90 stacks.

It's not.

Rangor

Jules said:

Targossas exists thanks to admin action - despite Tecton's slightly cryptic Valentine's weekend post, he did still reaffirm that Shallam was the "best candidate" (to die a watery death) or something very close to that.  Of course, people had to take things and run with them when they got the chance, but man, that's the definition of a hard reset right there, with the intent of making a hard core Good faction.  And in Shallam's case there were clear problems with the whole factions within a faction problem I mentioned (because it was discussed at length by people on the forums), and this seems absolutely rife in Hashan, too.  That sort of thing seems *really* hard to fix once it's got a good foothold. 

I'm murkier on Eleusis, but it seems like Gaia has taken a really active role in helping guide them to a more "rawr, nature" place, although they've had some loyal PK-ers like Rangor and Ellodin for a very, very long time.  Was Eleusis ever really broken?  Not sure, but they do seem stronger than ever. 

Mhaldor's framework might make it vulnerable to some things without absolutely stellar leadership at the helm, but it seems well immunized against ever having to deal with people who want to spread evil though peace!       

Ashtan has managed to never really "break", but I think once that happens to a city, it's sometimes beyond what players alone can fix. 

It sounds like Ourania has Something Big planned for Hashan's renaissance, so who knows, but I do think that cities with serious problems can and do benefit from admin intervention, and that's great.   

It's a combination of things. Gaia coming back, as well as us getting new really active and eager people joining and coming back to activity at the same time.

For Eleusis as a ideological/religious place, having an active divine is important though. I think we all remember Mhaldor when Sartan was inactive.. it's comparable. We've had too many nillywilly wtf are you nature gods. Back in the days it was Gaia and Lupus, then it was demeter.. then it was.. thoth, hermes, neraeos... aegis at one point... melantha and kastalia...... then we got a breath of fresh air from Artemis (although more focused on her own realm than all of Nature), then Gaia came back and we got to get the RP mess from all the different gods back together.

Mishgul

the dormant apollyon/shaitan days of mhaldor when me Dontarion and Tirac would just have the city to ourselves, and i would sing backstreet boys songs on HTS because meanings

Rangor

Speaking of which, Artemis' realm is super weird. The role she fills as the warrior nature goddess role she fills is great.. but godess of the cataclysm? lol. I need to do some real creative wrangling IG when people as me about the cataclysm and what it is. The way she built the order is super cool though, think tribal warriors/ritualists on the top of a volcano sacrificing people and animals to the power of their goddess/nature/effigy.

plz come back @artemis.

Jacen

Bluef said:

Herenicus said:

Bluef said:

Herenicus said:

Believe it or not, I have appreciated your stay, @Dracen. I know all the talk about design made people feel bad. But I am not sorry that the "git gud" or "sucks to suck" argument falls apart under scrutiny. It is like blaming poor kids for low test scores relative to other kids.

If people aren't willing to look beyond the mehanics of PFLs and NFLs at what conditions they may be responsible for creating that are undermining their ability to garner and maintain PKers, then there's no sense in offering them cookies by way of things that make it easier for them to manage raids in the first place. 

But what must Hashan do to prove herself among the deserving poor, and not a welfare queen like the cities who started with awesome OP classes?

Serpents started in Hashan. They gave up serpents and now, according to Jacen, they are stronger than ever PK wise. I don't see the problem here. 

Please. Its hardly as if we said "Oh, we don't care to have serpents in our city anymore, goodbye!" We made a decision to separate from two neutral organizations. There wasn't some magic button that would let us keep an equivalent serpent population while removing the neutral paradigms that were dragging us down, both internally and externally. Furthermore, looking at a classes skillsets, serpents aren't tied to Hashan the way that sentinels/sylvans/druids are tied to Eleusis, Paladin/priest are tied to Targ, Infernal/apostate are tied to Mhaldor, and Occultist is tied to Ashtan. Yes, there's history there, but looking at the classes themselves, and even ignoring the mechanical restrictions put in place to coerce those classes into their respective factions, it just plain makes sense for the Chaotic class to play in the Chaotic city, the forestal classes to play in the Nature city, The devotion class to play in the Good city, the Necro classes to play in the Evil city. I also certainly didn't say we were stronger than ever, only that our PK environment gained strength. Its more acceptable to PK and bring conflict to the city now, and no one's pushing to skirt under other city's radars anymore.

Jovolo said:

Nemutaur: "I think Hhaos, Lanar and Kasa were roaming in UW and Annwyn and wherever else today ganking people. That's a really great start. If those 3 can form a core group for Hashan it'll be something you can build on.

Here's the catch though, some self righteous whowever will feel the need to raid Hashan because of a gank. They will tell you or whoever that it is thanks to the roaming gank crew and if they want it to stop they need to curb in the crew. Don't, do not interfere with that core group and just let them do their thing.

If you show them support by telling them that it was demanded and you told the raider to go f- him/herself they will feel appreciated. They will want to stick around and get better so that the raid doesn't happen again, or if it does they can do more/better."

This is a really important point that shouldn't be glossed over by the Hashani players in this thread trying to make a change. I tried to start a core group of players in the city when the changes to their ideology (which made them seem appealing at the time) started to occur, with the likes of seftin/vaehl etc, and was met with such ridiculous opposition because we started to bring more PK attention to the city. Granted, this was nearly a year ago, so things may have changed since then. In contrast however, I did the same thing with Targossas a while back and was surprised to see the enthusiasm and support behind such a group, and provided us with the means to work our way up through the city. The difference? Targossas (and Mhaldor when we played there) made it fun.

This has nothing to do with mechanics, nor PK XP loss. What you're experiencing is the general attitude of a city. As I said though, of course, this may have changed! But pay attention to what Nemutaur said: look at your city, find those people interested in combat, support them, give them incentives to keep going, bring the different combatants together and form a small group and build it. But ffs, do not try and get in their way, and if anyone does? Warn them, give them a CDF, whatever. Just don't let them get in the way.

I have vague recollections of this. There's no record of applications from any of you to the city, and only an application from Seftin to the Lotus (though he may have been the only one of a Lotus class at the time). You yourself had a history of not playing well with others at the time, something that Hashan certainly didn't need on its plate amid the turmoil it had been going thru. We can't have our cake and eat it too. We can't keep serpents to PK with and get rid of the neutral serpent organization that managed them. We can't accept controversial PKers while building the unity and like-mindedness that a self-sustaining PK environment needs. We get ridiculed for separating from the Merchants and ridiculed for having Merchants on our Ruling council. Ridiculed when we have neutral overtones in our city and anti-PK motivations, and told that we can only blame ourselves for lack of PKers when we remove the neutral orgs unwilling to change to fit a city engaging in conflict. And through all this, it astounds me that we receive such condescension over our inability to climb out of the pit, when Shallam was given all the tools for success that Hashan didn't have (a popular fantasy archtype, two factional classes, actually being built on an ideology and not a "catchall" idea) and got a total reboot due to their predicament.

Herenicus

stop complaining and git gud its all your fault jacen why dont u [...] profit?

Jules

Merador said:

Are we talking about what people CAN do or what people DO do?

Well, what should we DO do about all this? 

Merador

I was more commenting on Herenicus asking whether people dodge the eye of proteus using strategies. To my knowledge, they don't, so his response didn't make a great deal of sense in that context.

Herenicus

Thank you, Merador. If I can go home at the end of the day north of 50% sensicality, I feel as though I've done my part to lift our average.  

Jules

It's alright, I just wanted to say do do.  Anyway, I agree, it's important to consider what people are actually do doing (how they're actually using stuff). 

Nemutaur

I really don't know what you want for Hashan anymore @Jacen.

If you want them to be relevant on the world stage in combat let Hhaos, Lanar and Kasa do their thing. No matter what side of deathsight they show up on it will attract other Hashani to them and combat.

If you don't want PK and want to be neutral, which won't happen because of Darkness, then just stifle the PK'ers and work on RP or something.

I think one problem that Hashan has is Twilight. He isn't going to go around and do shit that everyone will notice, heck half his schemes probably go unnoticed or only get noticed a decade later. Its how he works, secretive, scheming, manipulation, politics. And because of this Hashan will never really be allowed to be the dumb blunt object shouty raiding instrument that you see from Ashtan, Mhaldor, Eleusis and Targossas.

Jacen

Twilight's ideology allows for overt combat and dumb blunt object shouty raiding instruments, but we just can't support that without going on a huge negative essence spree. We just don't have the people.

You say that Hhaos, Lanar, and Kasa can attract people. I had a pretty decent raid group and engaged with Eleusis many many times, in the Darkenwood and Hashan and even raided Eleusis several times. People didn't flock to Hashan when that happened. In fact, -no one- flocked to Hashan when that happened.

People keep saying "if you build it, they will come" but history points out that that's never happened for Hashan