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XP Loss/Enemy Territory

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  • AntidasAntidas
    Jarrod said:

              Minister of Security: Antidas
                 


    Bolded: People who often participate in PK and work to improve themselves. (M): Mark member. I might have missed some, but I'd say there's a pretty clear pattern there.

    Champion                       Reputation           
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (Insert Tirac here if he weren't dormant) (10000000)
    Antidas                        175
    Rom                            122
    ...

    :_(

  • JarrodJarrod
    Oh whoops, I thought I checked you, but I didn't see any other Ivory and thought Targ didn't have any (intentionally). My bad!
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, Florida
    Think there's a good deal more there on Mhaldor's you could bold. I regularly raid and defend with several of them. For Targossas, I see Halos, Rohai, Siduri, and Vithincus out there a lot, too. 
    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
  • JarrodJarrod
    I went with the most obvious ones that are most often seen out and about, or involved in the majority of offense/defense to emphasize the point. Could definitely bold more based on personal experience like Herose, Kaevan, Ruth, DK.

    I basically set the bar relatively high for not-Hashan, and relatively low for Hashan, to point out the near-complete lack of visible PKers.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • JacenJacen
    So... we don't have PKers because we don't have PKers. That doesn't sound like much of a solution to anything.
    image
  • JarrodJarrod
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • BluefBluef Delos
    Jacen said:
    So... we don't have PKers because we don't have PKers. That doesn't sound like much of a solution to anything.
    Let's just be honest here. You're not interested in solutions. You're only interested in people taking pity on you and agreeing to change mechanics. That's the only way to explain why you keep glossing over every response that could actually help.
  • JulesJules
    edited February 2015

    Targossas exists thanks to admin action - despite Tecton's slightly cryptic Valentine's weekend post, he did still reaffirm that Shallam was the "best candidate" (to die a watery death) or something very close to that.  Of course, people had to take things and run with them when they got the chance, but man, that's the definition of a hard reset right there, with the intent of making a hard core Good faction.  And in Shallam's case there were clear problems with the whole factions within a faction problem I mentioned (because it was discussed at length by people on the forums), and this seems absolutely rife in Hashan, too.  That sort of thing seems *really* hard to fix once it's got a good foothold. 

    I'm murkier on Eleusis, but it seems like Gaia has taken a really active role in helping guide them to a more "rawr, nature" place, although they've had some loyal PK-ers like Rangor and Ellodin for a very, very long time.  Was Eleusis ever really broken?  Not sure, but they do seem stronger than ever. 

    Mhaldor's framework might make it vulnerable to some things without absolutely stellar leadership at the helm, but it seems well immunized against ever having to deal with people who want to spread evil though peace!       

    Ashtan has managed to never really "break", but I think once that happens to a city, it's sometimes beyond what players alone can fix. 

    It sounds like Ourania has Something Big planned for Hashan's renaissance, so who knows, but I do think that cities with serious problems can and do benefit from admin intervention, and that's great.   


  • JacenJacen
    In all seriousness, you're saying that we need more people to PK so that we can attract people who PK. I'm saying that there's no reason to PK in Hashan, the game gives incentives to being a nameless PKer in pretty much any other city save Cyrene, while punishing (Or really, just providing a drastic lack of incentive to ) PKers in Hashan/Cyrene.

    You're depending on people too entrenched in their text city to leave it for better pastures, instead of promoting balance through game mechanics. 
    image
  • BluefBluef Delos
    Jacen said:
    In all seriousness, you're saying that we need more people to PK so that we can attract people who PK. I'm saying that there's no reason to PK in Hashan, the game gives incentives to being a nameless PKer in pretty much any other city save Cyrene, while punishing (Or really, just providing a drastic lack of incentive to ) PKers in Hashan/Cyrene.

    You're depending on people too entrenched in their text city to leave it for better pastures, instead of promoting balance through game mechanics. 
    With all due respect, you're trying to build a city of fighters out of people who aren't up to the task. They will never be on par with Ashtan or probably even Cyrene if you keep up that negative attitude, ignoring the real problems, and just want social Pk justice every time you're discouraged.
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western Front
    That's it! The next helpful young man or woman to give Jacen a proper NFL wins 30cr. 
  • KinilanKinilan
    I'm sure Hashan would have more people willing to fight if they hadn't cut their population down at the knees by driving out not one but TWO of their original Guilds turned Houses. But that is because the system is broken, right? Players had nothing to do with that.
  • JacenJacen
    You're right, a lot of bodies were lost in those events. Truth is though, the bodies ( both people, and organizations) lost were in fact very neutral-minded and conflict-aversive. Hashan couldn't fit the Merchant's vision for their House without becoming undeniably neutral, which is all but impossible given the historical association with Twilight. SL leaders, even in our preliminary Renaissance negotiations, were very pro-neutral for the future of Hashan.

    While we may have lost the odd serpent/infernal/bard due to a lack of House to house them, the organizations themselves were very neutral-tending, and our PK environment has been strengthened by their departures.
    image
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western Front
    Yeah, and it's a shame Tuerney and Saltaern couldn't get it right in the years they were here. But I also believe in Jacen Christ, if our lion would but learn his own strength.
  • NimNim
    edited February 2015
    Herenicus said:
    That's it! The next helpful young man or woman to give Jacen a proper NFL wins 30cr. 
    Arguably, the raid mechanic itself has a negative feedback loop. It's easy to reach a level one blast, or whatever they're called, but exponentially harder to reach level two, and apparently level three has yet to even be done.

    While leveling up in general is a positive feedback loop (fixed death cap but increasing EXP gains, increasing damage output, and increasing HP), I'd argue that levels past 100 or so is more of a soft negative feedback loop. With ever-increasing EXP requirements, no additional critical gains, and heavily reduced HP benefits, it's no wonder the current second place in EXP to Penwize is 13 levels behind him.

    That said, it's still a positive feedback loop overall. I mean, the difference between level 100 and level 136 in HP is about 700 even with 12 con. With arties, it's easily more than twice that. I kind of want to track Penwize down and use him for limb breaking experiments now...

    But your progress is penalized the further you go, making it a technical negative feedback loop.

    Also, all cities and houses have an inherent negative feedback loop. Since newcomers are encouraged to join any of them without any knowledge of their current political structures, even if they dwindle to near uselessness, they'll still be kept on a life support of sorts. This isn't a negative feedback loop in the sense that it prevents progression, but that it caps regression. If Achaea had a smaller playerbase, we might even see the things @Jules mentioned happening in Imperian, where this life support ultimately reboots an org. Actually, I dare say that this life support is the first step in any org going from terrible to fun.
  • JacenJacen
    Nim said:
    Herenicus said:
    That's it! The next helpful young man or woman to give Jacen a proper NFL wins 30cr. 


    But your progress is penalized the further you go, making it a technical negative feedback loop.

    You're still getting boons though, so its really still a positive feedback look, it just gets less effective as you progress.
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  • BluefBluef Delos
    Jacen said:
    You're right, a lot of bodies were lost in those events. Truth is though, the bodies ( both people, and organizations) lost were in fact very neutral-minded and conflict-aversive. Hashan couldn't fit the Merchant's vision for their House without becoming undeniably neutral, which is all but impossible given the historical association with Twilight. SL leaders, even in our preliminary Renaissance negotiations, were very pro-neutral for the future of Hashan.

    While we may have lost the odd serpent/infernal/bard due to a lack of House to house them, the organizations themselves were very neutral-tending, and our PK environment has been strengthened by their departures.
    Then what have the last three pages of this thread been about? :confounded: 

    Here you go @Herenicus: 

    • Add a doomsday clock to the raid mechanic. Sanction each level in a certain amount of time or everyone raiding dies in some glorious fashion. BOOM. Honours lines can be unlocked for completing it in certain amounts of time (PFL). 
    • Punish raiders for messing up. Too many raiders die, BOOM. Or something.
    • More EoP damage.
    • City uprising. The denizens of the city come to the citizens' defense. Raids become both PVE and PVP. Mind blown yet?
    Sorry, I can't really think of anything good right now but I'm definitely giving it some serious thought. Here's a cookie for now. :cookie: 
  • NimNim
    edited February 2015
    Feedback loops work like this:

    Say you have some resource X (points, for instance) gained by spending Y other resource (time, for instance).

    With no feedback loop, it might look like X = bY + c.

    With a feedback loop, it suddenly looks like X = aY^2 + bY + c.

    Positive feedback loops have a positive a coefficient, while negative have a, well, negative a coefficient.

    The mechanic is interesting with games like cookie clicker or that one kitten game, where your resources have a constant positive feedback loop backing their gains. You're literally building things to get more resources faster. But the overall gameplay slows down as time progresses, because things cost exponentially more. You can therefore think of that as a positive feedback loop attached to game resources, but a major negative one attached to overall game advancement.

    edit: woops, forgot to actually state my point. Since it takes more and more time to level up, leveling has a negative feedback loop built in. Yes, you still benefit as you level up, but it takes more and more time. Arguably, this negative feedback loop starts at level five or whatever, and most people start complaining about it by level seventy or so (especially since you don't benefit from the EXP loss cap until level 80ish), but there are definitely additional factors that kick in at level 100.
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western Front
    Isn't it a shame Tanris didn't set up shop where he was needed most? I'm sure if we'd dropped him in Hashan we'd be having a different conversation, right? If anyone could've handled Achaea's hard mode, it'd been him. 
  • JacenJacen
    @Nim hrm, I'm still not convinced. Granted, my familiarity with feedback loops stems from an engineering perspective on it, but here's my take.

    Bashing gains you HP and MP and a higher crit rate, which enables you to bash more and bigger things. Thus it is a positive feedback loop.

    Bashing at higher levels gets you more HP and MP and (until lvl 100) a higher crit rate, still enabling you to progress and bash bigger things. It is still a positive feedback loop, just less effective than it is at lower levels

    Losing HP, MP, or crit rate as you progressed in level would be a negative feedback loop.


    image
  • NimNim
    Jacen said:
    @Nim hrm, I'm still not convinced. Granted, my familiarity with feedback loops stems from an engineering perspective on it, but here's my take.

    Bashing gains you HP and MP and a higher crit rate, which enables you to bash more and bigger things. Thus it is a positive feedback loop.

    Bashing at higher levels gets you more HP and MP and (until lvl 100) a higher crit rate, still enabling you to progress and bash bigger things. It is still a positive feedback loop, just less effective than it is at lower levels

    Losing HP, MP, or crit rate as you progressed in level would be a negative feedback loop.
    Feedback loops are fairly theoretical, and admittedly, leveling up does feature a lot of positive things - as I'd mentioned, the difference between a typical dragon and a Penwizian dragon is pretty significant.

    The negative feedback loop I speak of is time -> levels, with the (possibly flawed) assumption that EXP requirements continue to grow exponentially. Also, the effect on HP itself is reduced upon reaching level 100 (you gain a flat 20 less HP per level after 100), and the effect on criticals is removed entirely.

    There are still positives. For example, until you can singlehandedly tank the strongest possible configuration of mobs, more HP will always theoretically help you bash better. It's like the cookie clicker example I gave - you have positive forces and negative forces in this case.

    It's hard to find a game that doesn't have positive and negative feedback loops all intermixed. Like, we just spent practically ten pages debating how organizations have a positive feedback loop in terms of quality players leading to more quality players, but you can't deny there isn't a negative feedback loop keeping them from disintegrating entirely (until, at least, the admins decide to throw an undead dragon at them).
  • DracenDracen
    edited February 2015
    Multiple (seriously, multiple) solutions have been put out there, for both the OP, and Jacen's predicament. At this point, Herenicus seems to -just- be fishing for negative crap to say, and Jacen just seems to be looking for more than pity. He wants easymode. 

    Long and short of this -entire- thread. Pull yourself up by your damn bootstraps, and soldier on, or gtfo the way for others who -want- and -will- make the necessary changes.

    That applies MUCH more to Hashan than anyone else. Jacen, do your thing, let Hhaos, Lanar, Yurdan, Kasa and the others build that core group. Otherwise, you're hamstringing them with this "Oh we can't because we're not X or Y." crap. I halfway wanna slap the crap outta you because of it. I'm being as polite as I can with this, man. You -have- to give up some of your ground here. If you even just take a step back, and look at that little group Hashan is building (without needing PK incentive other than "THIS IS FUN", mind you) You might see that others are starting to look at them and go, "Well hell, if they can, so can I!" It really is a player motivated thing. The more you guys do stuff like Annwyn/UW/Nish trawling and skirmishes, and even duels, the more the other citizens will go and try to learn. You have a lot of people in that city who will learn. Believe me.


    With that last bit of positive (whether you think it is or not, that's not my thing, but it really is) I leave this thread.


  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western Front
    Believe it or not, I have appreciated your stay, @Dracen. I know all the talk about design made people feel bad. But I am not sorry that the "git gud" or "sucks to suck" argument falls apart under scrutiny. It is like blaming poor kids for low test scores relative to other kids.
  • BluefBluef Delos
    Herenicus said:
    Believe it or not, I have appreciated your stay, @Dracen. I know all the talk about design made people feel bad. But I am not sorry that the "git gud" or "sucks to suck" argument falls apart under scrutiny. It is like blaming poor kids for low test scores relative to other kids.
    No, it's not. That's a false dilemma, Herenicus. No one blames poor kids for low test scores. They look at the conditions outside (and inside) the classroom that may be related to them and seek to fix them. That's where the US school lunch (and breakfast) programs originated. If people aren't willing to look beyond the mehanics of PFLs and NFLs at what conditions they may be responsible for creating that are undermining their ability to garner and maintain PKers, then there's no sense in offering them cookies by way of things that make it easier for them to manage raids in the first place. It won't solve the root problem; it will only assuage a symptom of it. 
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western Front
    Bluef said:
    Herenicus said:
    Believe it or not, I have appreciated your stay, @Dracen. I know all the talk about design made people feel bad. But I am not sorry that the "git gud" or "sucks to suck" argument falls apart under scrutiny. It is like blaming poor kids for low test scores relative to other kids.
    If people aren't willing to look beyond the mehanics of PFLs and NFLs at what conditions they may be responsible for creating that are undermining their ability to garner and maintain PKers, then there's no sense in offering them cookies by way of things that make it easier for them to manage raids in the first place. 
    But what must Hashan do to prove herself among the deserving poor, and not a welfare queen like the cities who started with awesome OP classes?
  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, Norway
    Thats not a ship..its clearly some sort of rail carriage.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western Front
    edited February 2015
    I leave this thread in your hands, Mishgul. Goodnight and God bless.
  • BluefBluef Delos
    Herenicus said:
    Bluef said:
    Herenicus said:
    Believe it or not, I have appreciated your stay, @Dracen. I know all the talk about design made people feel bad. But I am not sorry that the "git gud" or "sucks to suck" argument falls apart under scrutiny. It is like blaming poor kids for low test scores relative to other kids.
    If people aren't willing to look beyond the mehanics of PFLs and NFLs at what conditions they may be responsible for creating that are undermining their ability to garner and maintain PKers, then there's no sense in offering them cookies by way of things that make it easier for them to manage raids in the first place. 
    But what must Hashan do to prove herself among the deserving poor, and not a welfare queen like the cities who started with awesome OP classes?
    Serpents started in Hashan. They gave up serpents and now, according to Jacen, they are stronger than ever PK wise. I don't see the problem here. 
This discussion has been closed.