XP Loss/Enemy Territory

Herenicus

It is little wonder that raiding/skirmishing/shrines are the PvP amusement of choice; losing a KoTH carries nearly the same risk. Bringing conflict to your enemies should carry risk. Risk gives defenders a reason to care and raiders (increasingly dragons) are limited by enthusiasm alone. Where defenders are disinterested in feeding that enthusiasm, options include QQing or otherwise boring aggressors back to the Netflix from whence they came.

Ideally, all defending players (PvPers or otherwise) should see raids as happy, unplanned opportunities. To that end, I propose the following:

• Affected territory: Cities; Area immediately outside of cities; Rooms containing a shrine

• Carrots for defenders: Killing aggressors in affected territory awards double XP (optional carrot: no XP loss for defenders in affected territory)

• Sticks for aggressors: Dying (bursting) and embracing death within affected territory entails significant text-p loss and/or prayerwait (optional stick: dying in multiple Leroy-Jenkins-style acts of heroism builds to a TDF that effectively removes transcendent abilities during an imposed timeout) 

Rip

You do realize that Dragons receive a wonderful 75% XP cut while hunting?

Herenicus

Rip said:

You do realize that Dragons receive a wonderful 75% XP cut while hunting?

With respect, I think the rate of XP gained while hunting in dragonform is a separate issue.

Jules

I just wish conflict were actually encouraged for and more inclusive of everyone, which is why I asked Tecton the question I did in his Q & A recently.  Despite our huge dislike of each other, Herenicus and I actually have a lot of similar sentiments about how PvP works out in practice.  I'd prefer the optional "stick" for aggressors, rather than punishing them with text-p loss.  I don't know how I feel about this one overall.  We don't actually want to make people not want to raid. 

Another nice carrot (because yay infamy system) would be making all of these activities' behavior like Nish (no infamy gain for anyone) - or at the very least, more opportunities for non-com types that don't give infamy!   

Nim

Rip said:

You do realize that Dragons receive a wonderful 75% XP cut while hunting?

Wasn't this removed a while ago?

Rip

Not really...I took me like oh 520 years to get to dragon and now that I am one, I still hunt as a serpent, with a 75% cut on XP.  It makes sense to me why they (me) lose just a little.

Herenicus

I love you, Jules; I only hate your forumsin. But we digress.

Rip

@Nim, the 3/4 XP loss for dragons hunting...no I don't think so.   I have to kill 3 times the amount to go up .1%.

I mean really, you are asking for what? Defenders get bonuses for killing and offenders receive more punishment?

Just get in there and die a couple hundred times, it's really not that big of a deal, and it's rather fun when you do score a kill.  Remember...hunting denizens is "fun".

Eld

Rip said:

@Nim, the 3/4 XP loss for dragons hunting...no I don't think so.   I have to kill 3 times the amount to go up .1%.

You used to get half xp in dragonform, but that was removed when bashing attacks were normalized and gut damage was nerfed down to comparable DPS to other classes. Now you get the same amount of xp as anyone else from killing the same thing, it just takes more to get a level, hence it's a smaller percentage per kill. The flip side of that is that you lose the same amount of xp from dying as anyone else (above the cap, which is at or around level 80), so that the percentage of a level lost per death is similarly small; that's the source of people's complaints about deaths being essentially meaningless for dragons, in terms of xp loss.

Shirszae

Defenders already don't lose exp once a raid is sanctioned, while raiders continue to do so. To tilt this even more in favour of defends would be a bit unfair, I feel. 

Other than that, I don't have any particularly great objection. Also, hunting as a dragon is boring, and the cut in exp is the nail in the coffin for me.

Jacen

From Announce #4161

- Becase Dragon hunting damage has been decreased so much, Dragons will now receive full experience when killing denizens.

Herenicus

Shirszae said:

Defends already don't lose exp once a raid is sanctioned, while raiders continue to do so. To tilt this even more in favour of defends would be a bit unfair, I feel. 

Presanctioned raiding, skirmishing, and shrine-fighting exact tolls in terms of XP that should rightly be borne by the individuals choosing to initiate and continue the event, not the individuals being asked to play along.  

Rip

@Eld, so then there is no complaints anymore.  Awesome!  Still takes a huge amounts of hunting to get 1% as level 99 (Which is completely fine, and understood by me.)

I mean I die a lot...and lose loads of XP in the process equaling hours of hunting, but in reality it has always been that way...

Carrots for defenders: Killing aggressors in affected territory awards double XP...

I guess I just don't understand, if your a non-combatant.  Then BE a pacifist...hunt nothing, kill nothing and make brownies...

Jules

non-com is just usually the generic term for "sucks at combat", rather than someone who strictly wishes to be a pacifist.  That said, I don't want to hit anyone with an XP loss hammer, as it tends to make people want to turtle up and not play (which is also why I'm not a fan of XP loss in general). 

Dracen

Disagree with this idea entirely, based on the fact that A) Shrine conflict shouldn't be something that has XP affected by. And 2) Skirmishes(Outside of the city/defendable) are 100% opt-in. You don't get to opt into shit, without consequences and huge benefits. That's already in your city. It'd be horrid to see that put in outside of it.

Point Q) 
The hell even is the idea on this? Like, I know you get bored with skirms and raids, but come -on-. That's just a lil insane. Most (not even kidding) of us leave the skirms and raids in the negative, and you guys pull out more wins already. This one just feels kinda dumb.

• Sticks for aggressors: Dying (bursting) and embracing death within affected territory entails significant text-p loss and/or prayerwait (optional stick: dying in multiple Leroy-Jenkins-style acts of heroism builds to a TDF that effectively removes transcendent abilities during an imposed timeout) 

Bluef

Non-com to me is someone who isn't enlisted in their city's military and, therefore, should not be targeted in a raid (or expected to defend) unless they're active engaged in defending. 

Because defenders already don't have experience loss after a sanction, and due to the fact that most people who raid really don't care about XP loss, I don't think the argument can be made that increasing XP loss for raiders will effectively give anyone who isn't already having motivation to stick around and defend any greater urge to do so. 

What irks me most of all about this idea is that it's coming from someone in a rather militant city (no personal offense @Herenicus; I'd feel this way if anyone in Mdor had posted this). If your defenders aren't already inspired to defend though, then perhaps your city needs to find new defenders, who have more the mindset of Ashtan and/or less of a weak will to stand up for the Truths they supposedly hold dear IC. <-- That's not a slam, just a reaction to an inference based on what was posted. 

People really need to stop caring so much about XP loss. It's a game. You win some, you lose some.

Vhaedryn

Lusternia did the whole "massive penalties to aggressors in enemy territory" plan. Know what happened? No raids -ever-

Herenicus

People from militant cities have every reason to want a full-throated defense from the players they are asking to play along, @Bluef. Giving double XP and removing XP loss in affected areas would produce more of that, without any massive penalties otherwise.

And shouldn't some risks attach to the choice to initiate or continue conflict against another faction? Of course no one wants to nerf the practice, altogether, but volunteering others to play should be risky enough to make KoTHs worthy of a second look for PvPers who just want to kill an hour with other interested PvPers.

Nim

Don't be silly, @Bluef, mandatory defense and mandatory military service are great ideas.

Dracen

Herenicus said:

And shouldn't some risks attach to the choice to initiative or continue conflict against another faction? 

Some risks? Loss of xp, loss of inks, loss of herbs, loss of gold, loss of essence to your chosen God if Mark, risk of being yanked into the city and killed by guards so fast you can't even pull out like it's a... nevermind, not making that joke. There's already a lot of risks. Like, I understand wanting to put the carrot there, but man. It already is, and we got pungee sticks all over as aggressors.

Bluef

What's stopping the militant city from launching a full-throated defense now though? Nothing. People would rather watch Netflix than defend. That's not a problem with mechanics, it's a problem with personal motivation. Similarly, you're not asking for a carrot, you're asking for a bushel of them... Just to get people who cba to defend now back in-game. Not to mention that if they didn't want to belong to a city that's so militant and requires defense, they could just, you know...join another city. But instead they want to have their carrot cake and eat it too. Seems silly.

Herenicus

Dracen said:

Herenicus said:

And shouldn't some risks attach to the choice to initiative or continue conflict against another faction? 

Some risks? Loss of xp, loss of inks, loss of herbs, loss of gold, loss of essence...

XP loss above the cap was nerfed; starbursts, alchemist rezz, and gems of transmutation further limit the risk to aggressors.  

Essence loss doesn't serve as much of a disincentive, either, with gods trading essence between each other to put on events, etc. Who was the last person to be kicked out of an order for essence lost? Thrud? 

And we don't hear PvPers complain about losing XP; I don't think it factors much into a decision to raid, if at all. Adjusting the formula until every raid is a happy, unplanned opportunity for defenders will ensure that raiders always have players who are eager to play along with their idea. 

Jules

Heh, I think part of this is Herenicus taking people to task on their supposedly carefree attitude about XP loss

I look at threads like this as jumping off points.  The real points to be discussed here are giving defenders some kind of out when they don't want to play/are tired of playing, making it fun to play so that they *will* want to play a lot of the time, and also not discouraging people from attacking.  I wish people wouldn't get completely stuck on a single element of the initial spit-balling and never let that go.  When it comes to cutting raids short though, I don't see anything wrong with the current mechanic of boring A-team to death by denying them additional soldier kills.  It's a strategic withdrawal, and it's also a nice clear signal to the other side that it's time to go, and there doesn't seem to be a problem with it.  I do hope people aren't doing it because "oh no, we're losing", because at that point it you really have nothing to lose but a little pride.  Do it when you've got no one to call targets and you can't even mount any kind of semi-decent response. 

To me it's more about the stuff I'm hoping Tecton has some creative improvements for - i.e. more opportunities for people like me to get involved without losing my ass/being able to cut my losses. 

Sarapis

Eld said:

 that's the source of people's complaints about deaths being essentially meaningless for dragons, in terms of xp loss.

That is going to be fixed as part of the next phase of the PvE changes. (And this will be the most fun of the phases because it involves everyone getting new abilities.)

Tharvis

Sarapis said:

Eld said:

 that's the source of people's complaints about deaths being essentially meaningless for dragons, in terms of xp loss.

That is going to be fixed as part of the next phase of the PvE changes. (And this will be the most fun of the phases because it involves everyone getting new abilities.)

But I already don't have enough keys to keybind everything

Sarapis

Tharvis said:

Sarapis said:

Eld said:

 that's the source of people's complaints about deaths being essentially meaningless for dragons, in terms of xp loss.

That is going to be fixed as part of the next phase of the PvE changes. (And this will be the most fun of the phases because it involves everyone getting new abilities.)

But I already don't have enough keys to keybind everything

??? As someone who manuals everything in MUDs, I have used a LOT of keybindings and never ran out of space. Can't you do control-<key>, alt-<key>, control-alt <key> etc variations? 

Tahquil

I think that if this is implemented raiders will still raid city, because that's what they find fun in this game. I think those that now defend will keep defending because that is what the find fun and those that prefer to stick for a skirmish then log out until the raid is over so they aren't obligated to defend will still do that.

In regards to shrines is there any plans @sarapis to make a designated conflict area about them? Maybe the shrine is defiled and it pops up an aura in the rooms in the area affect that gives the order's defenders a boosted xp gain in it.

Tharvis

Sarapis said:

Tharvis said:

Sarapis said:

Eld said:

 that's the source of people's complaints about deaths being essentially meaningless for dragons, in terms of xp loss.

That is going to be fixed as part of the next phase of the PvE changes. (And this will be the most fun of the phases because it involves everyone getting new abilities.)

But I already don't have enough keys to keybind everything

??? As someone who manuals everything in MUDs, I have used a LOT of keybindings and never ran out of space. Can't you do control-<key>, alt-<key>, control-alt <key> etc variations? 

'twas a joke :P I just usually keybind my hunting abilities and movement so I can atleast -chat- while murdering things

Achimrst

Sarapis said:

Tharvis said:

Sarapis said:

Eld said:

 that's the source of people's complaints about deaths being essentially meaningless for dragons, in terms of xp loss.

That is going to be fixed as part of the next phase of the PvE changes. (And this will be the most fun of the phases because it involves everyone getting new abilities.)

But I already don't have enough keys to keybind everything

??? As someone who manuals everything in MUDs, I have used a LOT of keybindings and never ran out of space. Can't you do control-<key>, alt-<key>, control-alt <key> etc variations? 

@Sarapis alt confirmed

Herenicus

Bluef said:

What's stopping the militant city from launching a full-throated defense now though? Nothing. 

This proposal was designed with non-militant cities in mind, where injecting some needed enthusiasm in the defenders could lead to greater interest in PvP, generally. With some modest changes, PvPers should be able to find enthusiastic defenders in every city, in every raid, without worrying themselves over self-restraint.

Bluef

Sarapis said:

Eld said:

 that's the source of people's complaints about deaths being essentially meaningless for dragons, in terms of xp loss.

That is going to be fixed as part of the next phase of the PvE changes. (And this will be the most fun of the phases because it involves everyone getting new abilities.)

Well, that makes me nervous. Hunting is sort of the last thing I'm actually able to do and enjoy in Achaea on my main. :worried

Edit: I hate the emoticons on forums right now. They just will not work for me!