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XP Loss/Enemy Territory

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  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,325 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Bluef said:
    What's stopping the militant city from launching a full-throated defense now though? Nothing. People would rather watch Netflix than defend. That's not a problem with mechanics, it's a problem with personal motivation. Similarly, you're not asking for a carrot, you're asking for a bushel of them... Just to get people who cba to defend now back in-game. Not to mention that if they didn't want to belong to a city that's so militant and requires defense, they could just, you know...join another city. But instead they want to have their carrot cake and eat it too. Seems silly.
    How is a game mechanic that makes people want to log out, not a problem with the mechanic?

    As far as the OP, I think there are several things that need to be addressed:

    - Lack of risks or consequences for dragons to initiate
    - Big risks for nondragons to participate, on either side
    - I swear I had a third but Reba distracted me

    You don't really want to chase people completely away from being aggressors in combat, but you do want conflict to be meaningful or enjoyable enough that defenders look forward to defending, consistently. 

    You also don't want to demolish the people who just occasionally dip their toes into PvP. You want to encourage them, welcome new participants into this aspect of Achaea, try to draw them in. Make it enjoyable. I'm reminded of when Nemutaur solo-baited at a Darkenwood Twilight shrine. Hashan demolished him by sheer numbers and had some non-typical names in the defense force, but he kept coming, over and over and over and over and over. After like an hour and a half, he had built up a list of Hashani but probably not Darkwalkers to hunt down afterwards. That's just not fun for anyone except the guy that stands to lose absolutely nothing and gain a ganking list at the conclusion, and punishes the ones that were stepping outside their square for a little bit to defend

    And I really don't believe the "hey I don't wanna reveal my alt but I really enjoyed that Ashtan raid last night, they should faceroll us more often!" forum accounts should be used as proof of entertainment value of facerolling people. People who have actually put up with that stuff for years actually do have some credibility in their thoughts and opinions, you know?

    image
    HerenicusTharvisKynaran
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2015
    Herenicus said:
    Bluef said:
    What's stopping the militant city from launching a full-throated defense now though? Nothing. 
    This proposal was designed with non-militant cities in mind, where injecting some needed enthusiasm in the defenders could lead to greater interest in PvP, generally. With some modest changes, PvPers should be able to find enthusiastic defenders in every city, in every raid, without worrying themselves over self-restraint.
    Make the font do it. A defensive font mode to do your defensive things and help cities with little defense capabilities. Then an offer an offensive font mode for those that regularly do attack others and do your little offensive thingies. Probably make them changeable only once a year so you have to do it each year and it's a whole city celebrative RP thing.

    Edit: Basically make it an icon so I don't have to stand on Nish and basically yawn myself to death. Unless we find a phased icon of course.
    Bluef
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Thank you for contributing an idea.
    Achimrst
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2015
    Jacen said:
    Bluef said:
    What's stopping the militant city from launching a full-throated defense now though? Nothing. People would rather watch Netflix than defend. That's not a problem with mechanics, it's a problem with personal motivation. Similarly, you're not asking for a carrot, you're asking for a bushel of them... Just to get people who cba to defend now back in-game. Not to mention that if they didn't want to belong to a city that's so militant and requires defense, they could just, you know...join another city. But instead they want to have their carrot cake and eat it too. Seems silly.
    How is a game mechanic that makes people want to log out, not a problem with the mechanic?
    Because IMO (and this is just my opinion obviously) it's not the game mechanic making them log out. It's the fact that they don't want to participate in lengthy raid defense. That's not a mechanical problem for the reasons previously stated; it's an issue related to people choosing to exist in a very militant city that requires mandatory defense who do not wish to actually spend time defending. It's oxymoronic really. I want to belong to Mhaldor and brand other people a slave to Evil, but I will not exact my character to the conditions of servitude (including dying over and over again for my City and Lord). Also I don't think fixing experience loss by making raiders/aggressor lose more will fix anything at all because, Dragon or not, those are the players who generally care less about experience than anyone else in the realm

    As far as the OP, I think there are several things that need to be addressed:

    - Lack of risks or consequences for dragons to initiate

    If Dragon takes one more nerf, honestly... I can't even go there. We're already slow as hell and do less damage than most lesserforms. Just no! Please, no. Bashing nerfs have already been a huge disappointment.

    - Big risks for nondragons to participate, on either side

    What risks? Do you mean experience loss? Again, I think this is a perception thing. People are too caught up in the mindset that in defending they're risking their precious experience instead of seeing it as the opportunity it is to interact and engage with those of opposing factions. While I don't want my dragon achievement to be culled anymore than it already has, I also think that people need to recognize that people don't get to dragon by worrying about their XP. They just do it. Grind on.

    - I swear I had a third but Reba distracted me

    Oooh, shiny! Squirrel!

    You don't really want to chase people completely away from being aggressors in combat, but you do want conflict to be meaningful or enjoyable enough that defenders look forward to defending, consistently. 

    I understand that. But I don't think these proposed changes will do that.

    You also don't want to demolish the people who just occasionally dip their toes into PvP. You want to encourage them, welcome new participants into this aspect of Achaea, try to draw them in. Make it enjoyable. I'm reminded of when Nemutaur solo-baited at a Darkenwood Twilight shrine. Hashan demolished him by sheer numbers and had some non-typical names in the defense force, but he kept coming, over and over and over and over and over. After like an hour and a half, he had built up a list of Hashani but probably not Darkwalkers to hunt down afterwards. That's just not fun for anyone except the guy that stands to lose absolutely nothing and gain a ganking list at the conclusion, and punishes the ones that were stepping outside their square for a little bit to defend

    Why is that not fun for everyone? People chose to defend/witness that shrine, knowing the consequences...which is sort of like saying, "Hey, Nemu I will come out and play!"  You want people to defend but not face consequence for it....yet you want raiders/defilers to face heavy consequences for their actions. That's...not right.

    And I really don't believe the "hey I don't wanna reveal my alt but I really enjoyed that Ashtan raid last night, they should faceroll us more often!" forum accounts should be used as proof of entertainment value of facerolling people. People who have actually put up with that stuff for years actually do have some credibility in their thoughts and opinions, you know?

    I think (and this is not directed at you specifically) that there are some people on forums lately who just need to step away from raid and shrine defense. In the same way that not everyone is built to become a Computer Scientist or Molecular Biologist IRL, not everyone has the temperament or outlook necessary to be a hardcore PvPer in a game like Achaea, where raiding is not always about everyone walking away with a smile.

    Just my two cents as someone whose been around here for years on both the giving and receiving end of raids.



    ShirszaeZathrian
  • NemutaurNemutaur GermanyMember Posts: 1,068
    Jacen said:
    Bluef said:
    What's stopping the militant city from launching a full-throated defense now though? Nothing. People would rather watch Netflix than defend. That's not a problem with mechanics, it's a problem with personal motivation. Similarly, you're not asking for a carrot, you're asking for a bushel of them... Just to get people who cba to defend now back in-game. Not to mention that if they didn't want to belong to a city that's so militant and requires defense, they could just, you know...join another city. But instead they want to have their carrot cake and eat it too. Seems silly.

    You also don't want to demolish the people who just occasionally dip their toes into PvP. You want to encourage them, welcome new participants into this aspect of Achaea, try to draw them in. Make it enjoyable. I'm reminded of when Nemutaur solo-baited at a Darkenwood Twilight shrine. Hashan demolished him by sheer numbers and had some non-typical names in the defense force, but he kept coming, over and over and over and over and over. After like an hour and a half, he had built up a list of Hashani but probably not Darkwalkers to hunt down afterwards. That's just not fun for anyone except the guy that stands to lose absolutely nothing and gain a ganking list at the conclusion, and punishes the ones that were stepping outside their square for a little bit to defend

    You'll notice how that list did not consist of any Darkwalkers that were known to me even though they did defend. I understand why the Black Lotus came to defend a shrine, doesn't make it right in my book so I went out of my way to remember those who did and I did tell them why I ganked them for it later.

    I had one or two interesting conversations as a result, explaining that this was an Order thing and if Lotus got involved it would soon devolve to Ashtan vs Hashan which nobody on either side really wants to see happen.
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,325 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Right. You hold complete power over that situation, because you have the resources and the depth to always threaten to escalate the situation one more level. The other side is screwed if they don't call in for help, and even more screwed if they do. You don't have anything to lose in the situation, but you use your time and money and resources to take time and money and resources from others, who have a lot to lose. Is it any wonder this isn't enjoyable to a lot of people?
    image
    RangorErnamFlorentino
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jacen said:
    Right. You hold complete power over that situation, because you have the resources and the depth to always threaten to escalate the situation one more level. The other side is screwed if they don't call in for help, and even more screwed if they do. You don't have anything to lose in the situation, but you use your time and money and resources to take time and money and resources from others, who have a lot to lose. Is it any wonder this isn't enjoyable to a lot of people?
    I'm a bit on the fence about this one, although you do have to take into account the consequences of your actions.
    Shirszae
  • NemutaurNemutaur GermanyMember Posts: 1,068
    Jacen said:
    Right. You hold complete power over that situation, because you have the resources and the depth to always threaten to escalate the situation one more level. The other side is screwed if they don't call in for help, and even more screwed if they do. You don't have anything to lose in the situation, but you use your time and money and resources to take time and money and resources from others, who have a lot to lose. Is it any wonder this isn't enjoyable to a lot of people?
    Could have just let that shrine drop and raise it later? If the fact that I didn't mind dying for 1.5 hours trying to get that shrine or you guys to use to defile the shrine didn't signal that I really wanted it I don't know what else to do.

    Twilight's order hasn't reraised any shrines that I've found except that one in Darkenwood that you guys defended and another one in Mhojave. They obviously don't care too much about a large shrine network and they can always raise that shrine later.

    The only thing I took from you is time. In the end I probably gave you more exp (as a group) than I got from killing everyone (didn't even get around to killing you and I won't since too much time has passed).

    Either way, I gave a clear message. Defend shrines if you're not in the Order and I'll seek to retaliate.
    Bluef
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2015
    It occurs to me that this proposal could incentive players to join whatever faction is experiencing the most raids, operating as a negative feedback loop, which sounds like a bad thing but ain't.

    edit: a/n
    Jacen
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,325 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nemutaur said:
    Jacen said:
    Right. You hold complete power over that situation, because you have the resources and the depth to always threaten to escalate the situation one more level. The other side is screwed if they don't call in for help, and even more screwed if they do. You don't have anything to lose in the situation, but you use your time and money and resources to take time and money and resources from others, who have a lot to lose. Is it any wonder this isn't enjoyable to a lot of people?
    Could have just let that shrine drop and raise it later? If the fact that I didn't mind dying for 1.5 hours trying to get that shrine or you guys to use to defile the shrine didn't signal that I really wanted it I don't know what else to do.

    Twilight's order hasn't reraised any shrines that I've found except that one in Darkenwood that you guys defended and another one in Mhojave. They obviously don't care too much about a large shrine network and they can always raise that shrine later.

    The only thing I took from you is time. In the end I probably gave you more exp (as a group) than I got from killing everyone (didn't even get around to killing you and I won't since too much time has passed).

    Either way, I gave a clear message. Defend shrines if you're not in the Order and I'll seek to retaliate.
    Hang on. Why would you gank me for defending one of my own shrines?
    image
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Take it outside, gentlemen. This here's a nice joint. 
    AchimrstNim
  • NemutaurNemutaur GermanyMember Posts: 1,068
    Jacen said:
    Hang on. Why would you gank me for defending one of my own shrines?
    I wouldn't. If I knew the person was a Darkwalker I left them be, they have a right to defend that shrine. Black Lotus has a reason to defend it, doesn't make it right though.
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,325 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sorry, misinterpreted some words there I guess.

    Anwyays, yeah, I'm all for consequences for your actions, but the scale here is totally whopsided. The aggressors, who should face more consequences since there, you know, aggressing, don't actually have to face any consequences because they're of a skill level and have the resources to not have to care about it. The people who defend the aggressors have the aggressor's objective, XP, potential subsequent ganking, time they weren't planning to commit to this, time to bash corpses to refill the font/reraise shrines, etc etc to lose.

    That scale needs to totally flip the other way.
    image
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,526 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I totally understand where you are coming from, but the defenders should know what they are getting into. If they are not prepared for all of it, then they can simply walk away. To make it scot free for defenders and full of penalties for aggressors is not really the right way to go about it, I think. 

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    HerenicusSarapis
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2015
    Think of the proposal as a shitty Golden Corral buffet of menu options designed to make defending raids/skirmishes/shrines an unexpected joy, every time, for everyone. The aggressors are havin' fun or they wouldn't be there. And any sticks can be phased in slowly, if at all, as necessary.
  • NemutaurNemutaur GermanyMember Posts: 1,068
    Jacen said:
    Sorry, misinterpreted some words there I guess.

    Anwyays, yeah, I'm all for consequences for your actions, but the scale here is totally whopsided. The aggressors, who should face more consequences since there, you know, aggressing, don't actually have to face any consequences because they're of a skill level and have the resources to not have to care about it. The people who defend the aggressors have the aggressor's objective, XP, potential subsequent ganking, time they weren't planning to commit to this, time to bash corpses to refill the font/reraise shrines, etc etc to lose.

    That scale needs to totally flip the other way.
    I can see that. But you do know you could have bashed as a group for 1.5 hours and raised that shrine 3 times over while getting experience?

    First reaction being lets defend the shrine is good. But after you see how stupidly stubborn I am when I want something done in game why did you feel the need to defend it over and over instead of getting ahead of the problem?
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Achimrst said:
    Herenicus said:
    Bluef said:
    What's stopping the militant city from launching a full-throated defense now though? Nothing. 
    This proposal was designed with non-militant cities in mind, where injecting some needed enthusiasm in the defenders could lead to greater interest in PvP, generally. With some modest changes, PvPers should be able to find enthusiastic defenders in every city, in every raid, without worrying themselves over self-restraint.
    Make the font do it. A defensive font mode to do your defensive things and help cities with little defense capabilities. Then an offer an offensive font mode for those that regularly do attack others and do your little offensive thingies. Probably make them changeable only once a year so you have to do it each year and it's a whole city celebrative RP thing.
    Here are my concerns:
    Empowering a font
    -----------------
    Those with the necessary rank in the city's military may EMPOWER FONT <power>,
    using one of the following options:
       - WEAKEN : A compounding affliction that increases the amount of damage an
                  enemy takes.
       - QUAKE  : Send powerful tremors through the earth, disrupting the propping
                  of totems.
       - DECAY  : Influence the very fabric of time, reducing the life of any
                  persistent room effects such as devotional rites, crystalline
                  vibrations, necromantic hands of the grave, and a bard's
                  harmonics.

    This is inapplicable to the worst raids; the unavailability of competent defense leaders is seen as a net positive in some quarters. 

    I do admit that there are alternatives to this proposal.

    Imagine sporting, mutually-enjoyable contests arranged ahead of schedule by org leaders who consider themselves to be on the same OOC team with the objective of telling stories, having fun, and making the game even more fun for new and future players. 

    Are you ready to embrace quaint ideas!? This is your thread. 

  • KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,342 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    So promote people past maggot.

    but hey shceduled content, like landmarking you mean? That worked out real well fair and balanced every time. And they even had crazy xp loss like what you want a return to.

    Or maybe you want something more structured like with times and goals and rules of engagment like what Ashtan tried to set up during the last Ashtan/Mhaldor war and Mhaldor ignored the idea until Ashtan got tired of pulled the plug?


  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2015
    I'm honestly nonplussed.

    Someone defiles. A bunch of people come to defend. The person who retaliates later for the fringe factor who attacked him is taken to task for his actions because individuals in the group, who chose to leap into action, were out-skilled and out-resourced?

    What kind of Forest of Feelings is this game turning into to? I feel like any day now we'll all be assigned belly badges connected to a great big rainbow meter that shows how much caring there is in the land about other people's grievances about their option to actually defend and deal with the consequences of doing so. 
    Silas
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Herenicus said:
    Achimrst said:
    Herenicus said:
    Bluef said:
    What's stopping the militant city from launching a full-throated defense now though? Nothing. 
    This proposal was designed with non-militant cities in mind, where injecting some needed enthusiasm in the defenders could lead to greater interest in PvP, generally. With some modest changes, PvPers should be able to find enthusiastic defenders in every city, in every raid, without worrying themselves over self-restraint.
    Make the font do it. A defensive font mode to do your defensive things and help cities with little defense capabilities. Then an offer an offensive font mode for those that regularly do attack others and do your little offensive thingies. Probably make them changeable only once a year so you have to do it each year and it's a whole city celebrative RP thing.
    Here are my concerns:
    Empowering a font
    -----------------
    Those with the necessary rank in the city's military may EMPOWER FONT <power>,
    using one of the following options:
       - WEAKEN : A compounding affliction that increases the amount of damage an
                  enemy takes.
       - QUAKE  : Send powerful tremors through the earth, disrupting the propping
                  of totems.
       - DECAY  : Influence the very fabric of time, reducing the life of any
                  persistent room effects such as devotional rites, crystalline
                  vibrations, necromantic hands of the grave, and a bard's
                  harmonics.

    This is inapplicable to the worst raids; the unavailability of competent defense leaders is seen as a net positive in some quarters. 

    I do admit that there are alternatives to this proposal.

    Imagine sporting, mutually-enjoyable contests arranged ahead of schedule by org leaders who consider themselves to be on the same OOC team with the objective of telling stories, having fun, and making the game even more fun for new and future players. 

    Are you ready to embrace quaint ideas!? This is your thread. 

    Most if not all of your original ideas in the post seemed passive effects. While the military use the font for raids and such I was literally thinking, like in my post, of making it like how an icon works now so each CITY has one instead of each house. A passive effect wouldn't really need to be an empowering of the font it would be similar to spheres and whatever the hell is the other one the icon gives you a buff with although your city will choose not you personally.

    So lets say your city decides this year to strengthen the font defensively, you all go to the font and hug it or whatever to make it give all citizens carrots for simply being a citizen with a defensive icon. Alternatively you can kick the icon in the nuts and make it angry so it gives carrots for all of your offensive needs.

    In summary, you hug an icon and your city celebrates as it gets some kind of intercity or possibly just a citizen centric carrot for being font hugers. You kick the font in the nuts and your city celebrates as the font gives the citizens a carrot for being bastards who hurt the things that love them the most which they use to their benefit against another city. This is all a passive effect to promote RP in that the city needs to do this process themselves in some organized way and can probably make a whole annual city thing about. It's passive so it's done once a year and not an empowerment which are mainly for city defense during raids.
    Nemutaur
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2015
    Kinilan said:
    So promote people past maggot.
    First off, thank you for contributing to the thread.

    While your recommendation makes sense on its face, the fact remains that competent defense leadership has always required more than a hard-coded army rank.  The Font remains a poor solution for the reason that it cannot much equalize a defense that is missing competent leadership, online and willing to play. 

    but hey shceduled content, like landmarking you mean? That worked out real well fair and balanced every time. And they even had crazy xp loss like what you want a return to.
    We are indeed old persons, but my wayback machine won't take me to landmarking. So much has changed since then that I'm not sure just saying the word landmarking frightens like it used to. After all, everyone loved the last CTF which was as scheduled as can be.  

    Or maybe you want something more structured like with times and goals and rules of engagment like what Ashtan tried to set up during the last Ashtan/Mhaldor war and Mhaldor ignored the idea until Ashtan got tired of pulled the plug?

    Wasn't involved. Maybe there were good ideas in there. Ashtan/Mhaldor war can't last forever, you know. Wouldn't you like to have the option to launch wars against Cyrene or Hashan that meet some enthusiasm instead of outright rejection on largely OOC grounds? I sure would.

  • KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,342 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If you want access to font powers you have to pay the price in army rank. that's how the system was designed. It's not a matter of leadership it is the cost of the powers. If you want more access to font powers you have to risk a death with a little more tank charge behind it. Worst case scenario is the raid ends sooner either in voctory or defeat. Font powers are no joke. Isn't that what you want? shorter raids?

    CTF has no xp loss period. Not extra xp loss for people attacking a flag position. Your idea is nothing at all like a CTF.

    You weren't involved then, you can be now. Negotiations are a thing. you can try them.
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2015
    Kinilan said:
    If you want access to font powers you have to pay the price in army rank.
    The font takes competent leadership to use well; the presence of competent leadership reduces the need for a font! 
    CTF has no xp loss period. Not extra xp loss for people attacking a flag position. Your idea is nothing at all like a CTF.
    You pointed to scheduled content being unenjoyable. I was only pointing out that some scheduled content is very enjoyable. Two sides could alternate attacks under this proposal, evening out which side was taking it on the chin in terms of XP. 
    You weren't involved then, you can be now. Negotiations are a thing. you can try them. 

    Thanks, and thanks again for your contributions to the thread. 

  • KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,342 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think a far better idea would be for tanks to gain charge every time a defending army members QQs. Lets say a single deaths worth before diminishing returns. Well ok maybe not that much. Sometimes people do need to just leave.

    By rage quitting people are dragging out the raids they feel you're losing. Less bodies means less potential charge for the tank. It also means the remaining defenders, the people still having fun, are now just a little bit weaker, a little less likely to win. If enough people rage quit all the defenders can do is sit back and wait. People that rage quit have ruined their fun by not helping bring about an end, either in vicotry ot defeat. So why drag it out? let's speed along the end with a little extra charge.

    Plenty of other games punish people for rage quits. Those sorts of people are poor sports and deserve to be punished for ruining the fun of people that enjoy the PvP scene. Weather just testing the waters or fully entrenched in it. They certainly have a right to not be forced into something they don't enjoy but that doesn't give them the right shit all over what others certainly enjoy.

    In short rage quitting is poor sportsmanship and should be punished.
    AchimrstBluef
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    What would constitute non-rage quitting? Leaving after an hour? A half-hour? Can we use flex-time, maybe 45 minutes today and 15 minutes tomorrow?

    Hanging around for a bad time isn't a virtue and looking for fun isn't criminal. Game without guilt. 
  • KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,342 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited February 2015
    Oh no. Just any time an army member logs out during a raid. If you're an army member you've agreed to take part in that sort of thing weather you're winning or not. It's a choice and you have to take the good with the bad.
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Can people still use the bathroom under this system? Are there demerits when smokers enter a journal? Does the Inferno count as rage-quitting if you get a phone call? How many rooms do we want to blow up when pizza arrives earlier than expected? 
    GreysSarapisShirszae
  • KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,342 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I already mentioned that life gets in the way and that charge values should reflect that. But whatever the reason if you're involved in a raid and then back out for whatever reason you're ruining it for both sides and it ends up dragging out the fight. So the extra charge balnces that oit and keeps things quick. Nobody wants a raid to drag out forever.
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,325 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Man, some of the ideas being thrown around seem to be aimed at whittling down the people who desire to participate in group PvP. Isn't that the exact opposite of what pretty much everyone wants?
    image
    HerenicusBalynneErnam
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Are people logging on their phone or to check mail suddenly fifth columnists for using an app or having poor timing? What if fewer people decide to take on IRL duties to Achaea? Do we still let city civilians log in for 30min to help the brave martyrs poopsocking for god and country? 

    We shouldn't need to chain people to a keyboard to convince them to keep playing, like some text-version of Annie Wilkes. 
    ErnamFlorentinoSarapisShirszae
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