Dual Blunt Discussion

Arador

Or maybe it is not bugged, but rather head breaking with morningstar is bugged. By the looks of this, the head break went straight to level 2.

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/542038d1

Makarios

Fairly sure you must've had damaged head already. No reason something like that would happen that I can think of. Do another test and see if it happens again?

Arador

Ah, found the issue. SVO does not recognise the assault message and breaking head with assault gives stuttering, not stupidity, so I did not notice it. Thanks! 

Aedin

Addama said:

Targets with ~4200 health break limbs in six morningstar hits, so if you consider 5 for each leg and 5 to prep head, that's 15 hits, so your prep work is about 20 seconds.  That's the fastest prep by far for any of the specs.

Was this with lvl3 morningstars, or stock morningstars?

Cause if they were stock, kinda of sad that I'm using level3 flails and I'm two hits or one combo under what it takes for you to break a limb and their at what 2.7s rebalance?. Then its the same for if they was level 3 morningstars compared to a level3 flail with the almost double the damage and nearly a second faster.

However it takes five hits with just about anyone above 5k health with level3 flails.

Aedin

Double post..

Addama

Aedin said:

Addama said:

Targets with ~4200 health break limbs in six morningstar hits, so if you consider 5 for each leg and 5 to prep head, that's 15 hits, so your prep work is about 20 seconds.  That's the fastest prep by far for any of the specs.

Was this with lvl3 morningstars, or stock morningstars?

Cause if they were stock, kinda of sad that I'm using level3 flails and I'm two hits or one combo under what it takes for you to break a limb and their at what 2.7s rebalance?. Then its the same for if they was level 3 morningstars compared to a level3 flail with the almost double the damage and nearly a second faster.

However it takes five hits with just about anyone above 5k health with level3 flails.

Mine are forged Runeblades (I prefer the term "Runeblasters"), not sure if yours are.

Ours might have similar limb damage, but probably dissimilar balance since Runes do nothing for that.

Wessux

Aedin said:

Addama said:

Targets with ~4200 health break limbs in six morningstar hits, so if you consider 5 for each leg and 5 to prep head, that's 15 hits, so your prep work is about 20 seconds.  That's the fastest prep by far for any of the specs.

Was this with lvl3 morningstars, or stock morningstars?

Cause if they were stock, kinda of sad that I'm using level3 flails and I'm two hits or one combo under what it takes for you to break a limb and their at what 2.7s rebalance?. Then its the same for if they was level 3 morningstars compared to a level3 flail with the almost double the damage and nearly a second faster.

However it takes five hits with just about anyone above 5k health with level3 flails.

The forged should be at 2.5 and the level 3's should be at 2.2 seconds. If math holds up which is possible it's not. I don't have the exact formulas just eye balling and what I've experienced. 

Arador

Only being able to break a limb in 2 hits compared to 3. #bluntproblems

Hey guys! I've been wailing on this guy's leg for half a minute! I almost have it prepped! #snb4life

(I'm joking of course, I get your point) 

Addama

I'd say Dual Blunt is in a far better place than Two Handed, but it's still fairly pointless to fight anybody who can Evade/Backflip out the second you touch their left arm.  Fighting a BM is super pointless.

Kellonius

Currently gripe with dual wield:
Lack of razeslash type ability, particularly for hunting. Dual blunt doesn't gain momentum while hunting, so relying on fracture to remove shields during hunting is slower than when fighting an adventurer. I think unmodified fracture is a 1.5 seconds, so its not too bad, but I would definitely prefer something akin to carve or razeslash. Right now dual blunt is the only spec that cant raze and attack in the same combo!

Klendathu

Kellonius said:

Currently gripe with dual wield:
Lack of razeslash type ability, particularly for hunting. Dual blunt doesn't gain momentum while hunting, so relying on fracture to remove shields during hunting is slower than when fighting an adventurer. I think unmodified fracture is a 1.5 seconds, so its not too bad, but I would definitely prefer something akin to carve or razeslash. Right now dual blunt is the only spec that cant raze and attack in the same combo!

Nor can monks, or quite a few other classes. Hammer tattoo :P

Kellonius

Klendathu said:

Kellonius said:

Currently gripe with dual wield:
Lack of razeslash type ability, particularly for hunting. Dual blunt doesn't gain momentum while hunting, so relying on fracture to remove shields during hunting is slower than when fighting an adventurer. I think unmodified fracture is a 1.5 seconds, so its not too bad, but I would definitely prefer something akin to carve or razeslash. Right now dual blunt is the only spec that cant raze and attack in the same combo!

Nor can monks, or quite a few other classes. Hammer tattoo :P

Yea, its not a huge deal when it comes to hunting. That aside, that's like comparing apples to oranges in terms of combat. I'm talking about putting the knight specializations on an even keel with one another in terms of what they can do(when it comes to rebounding, specifically). In fact, @Makarios‌ said in another thread somewhere that dual blunt is supposed to be able to kill with pure damage alone, and not being able to do something akin to RSL seems to go against that logic because we can't keep the damage going.

And yes, I know we can always expend torso, but there might be some instances where saving the momentum is more important, or perhaps there is no momentum to use, and so on.

Tarkanian

Kellonius said:

Klendathu said:

Kellonius said:

Meep

Meep

...

In fact, @Makarios‌ said in another thread somewhere that dual blunt is supposed to be able to kill with pure damage alone...

@Makarios: where is this thread? I haven't had much time to play and try out all the fancy shmanzy new changes to knight, so instead, I've just been reading up on everything about the specs. Appreciate if you could point me in the right direction. Thanks!

Addama

It can kill people with raw damage, given you have enough Strength and they have few enough hitpoints.  That goes for any Knight, of course.  Two Handed is far better equipped to kill with raw damage, though.

The lack of hindering options makes this unlikely, though.  You can keep them from parrying/shielding/rebounding, but not from running or hindering you.

Antonius

It's a prep class with damage bonuses when hitting already damaged (restoration broken) limbs of a prone opponent and an instant kill that forces inefficient curing of legs to survive.

You're not supposed to just stand there and try doublewhirling them to death.

Krux

Antonius said:

It's a prep class with damage bonuses when hitting already damaged (restoration broken) limbs of a prone opponent and an instant kill that forces inefficient curing of legs to survive.

You're not supposed to just stand there and try doublewhirling them to death.

Can this be inscribed on Lv3 Flails? Cause that totally should be standard if so.

If you gave Dual Blunt a Raze Slash... there would be like no way to slow them down at all. They already have two parry bypasses (Left Arm and Expend/Break Leg). They break your limbs in like 4 hits with flails, they instantly kill you and serverside curing apparently doesn't want you to stand back up either. (This is a joke I'm sure its getting fixed.)

Antonius

I kind of feel sorry for people who bought level three flails without realising level three morningstars were (an/the superior?) option. Seems like you should be doing most of your prep work/momentum building/expending with morningstars because it's that much faster, only switching to flails for assault (which doesn't appear to be affected by weapon speed, but is by weapon damage, based on my testing) or hitting a prone opponent's damaged limbs (even in this case, morningstars might work out better).

Aedin

Well in all that's fair I suppose is that we didn't really get much of an option at use anything else sadly during testing we didn't get to have arti morning  stars  and then they get released a few days into being released   as well... While I do and dont regret my level three fails for that very reason it it was sadly my mistake..


While sure I would love to trade them in for morning stars now due to way thrm having a vastly faster  prep time and almost near damage as it would seem. After al stock morning stars were done nearly 700 damage every 2.4 second compared to my 1000 damage every 3 seconds. So I can only picture what level three   morning stars   are like in comparison ..

Overall I'm in a sad place with my level three flails with how vastly under powered it really is compared to Morningstar s

Antonius

@Aedin: If you bought them before morningstars were announced it might be worth contacting artefacts@achaea.com and seeing if you'd be allowed to switch.

Aedin

Ya thanks for the idea @Antonius‌ sending them an email right now hope for the best  

Borran

Momentum gain during hunting would be awesome for feeling like the unstoppable force that you are. "Is that a shield?! Get that crap or if my face! I'm a wrecking ball."

Borran

Mizik

Can dual blunt only split break when exerting or whatever?

Arador

No can hit one limb with both blows and expend or hit two different limbs and expend on either. 

You just can not expend on both limbs. 

Addama

One thing I didn't bother to test is if you could DOUBLEWHIRL LEFT ARM EXPEND LEFT LEG to hit a parried left leg, or if the Expend effect would only apply like a fraction of a second later.

Mizik

I guess I don't know what expend is. I assumed the ability to double break required consumption of limited resource. Otherwise dbreak, dbreak, vivisect?

Arador

Well yes and no. Morning stars are 2.5 second balance (2.2 with lvl 3) so you can not just doublebreak leg, doublebreak arms, vivisect. You will be a second too slow.

That being said, dual blunt is currently broken with morningstars. You can get 3 hits into 8 seconds which is a problem.

0 Break both legs, they apply to legs

2.5 Break head

4 Leg back to lvl 1, apply head

5 assault head, head now lvl 3

7.5 Pulp

8. Head would have been cured back to lvl 2

No way to really beat it apart just not applying to legs at all and waiting for the head break but that allows them to keep you on the ground and damage you out pretty easily without being able to get up (or fake applying, and then curing head first when they break it, but once again, if they know you do that they can just wail on you and you won't get up)

Infernals can make this even worse in that the fake apply won't even save you because well, you are not curing legs so you can see why Infernal would have a field day with that if they have your arms set up too. (Strat is slightly different but same result and absolutely no escape whichever way)

I am not sure what could fix this apart from just straight nerfing morningstars or infernals, but doing so could take it from "Impossible to escape" to "Impossible to pull off" which would suck. All I can think of is to lengthen Assault balance a bit. 

Addama

Mizik said:

I guess I don't know what expend is. I assumed the ability to double break required consumption of limited resource. Otherwise dbreak, dbreak, vivisect?

Because you could do the same thing with only three preps (legs and head) and land a Pulp instead, which is #swagoverload.

Mizik

Oh. So unstoppable Vivisect is too weak.

#goingInfernal #RIPAshtan

Aedin

First off, I'd like to state, where are you pulling out a level two head break right off the start of the break you're off by one. Secondly, by time you pulp'd they're dead anyways no use for anything else after that..

Right now I'd have to say dual blunt is in a pretty nice niche right now, while yes we can break limbs with ease, but for that we lack any form of hindrance outside of breaking limbs. We traded sheer damage and limbs for being able to hinder effective is how I see it.