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Comments
Yes the break potential is enormous with dual blunt but the ability to capitalize on breaks is minimal, we don't have impale/disembowel, we don't have lunge, and we don't have any afflictions/hindrance. The stun provided to us is 1 second and costs HALF our momentum, which takes 4 attacks (potentially a minimum of 7 seconds - forged flails) to create. That's if there's no parry or misses. So to create about 3 hits with morningstars worth of parry free space, which is absolutely necessary, you have to spend 5-7 seconds making the momentum, and then pray that on the expend the left arm isn't parried, otherwise during the delay of the failed attack you will lose enough momentum to force you to attack another unparried limb, to expend on something else. Sure it leaves the legs open, but if someone tracks their limb damage and intelligently parries the leg on the attack that's supposed to break both limbs, they in essence reset the kill combo of dual blunt. As it is, assault is too difficult to perform, almost impossible on a single leg break unless you've had unimpeded momentum build, and even with a double leg break (difficult enough to pull off) the time required to build the momentum back (essentially you have to spend all 8 momentum to perform a double leg break on a decent opponent - 4 for the parry break, and another 4 for the leg expend, requiring you to build back to full momentum, a minimum of 10 seconds with forged morningstars and a minimum of 14 seconds with forged flails) leaves you without options. By the time you get to pull off an assault, if you are lucky enough to get there (Rebounding didn't proc, no tumble), you get the assault off and they stand and apply to head, leaving you literally back at square one, after however many minutes of fighting at this point. Against other classes that are based on momentum you have absolutely no chance, Shaman/Jester/Alchemist scale in hindrance and kill potential far better than a Runewarden dual blunt. I understand that with some of the skills available in necromancy and devotion dual blunt will take some very specific tweaks ot make it fair for all, but as it is Runewarden dual blunt isn't even viable in high tier combat, as Szanthax showed me today. Even spending the money to have level 3 flails he couldn't maintain the momentum to pull off a pulp, leaving the only other option damaging an opponent out, which against another heavily artied dragon, would be nearly impossible outside of a raid.
I hope that the classleads lead to some significant changes. I desperately don't want dual blunt to become a joke spec.
Are there issues with dual blunt? Probably. But you're not helping yourself by using flails for the entire fight.
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
I think picking out one tiny part of the whole post to rag on is a little like de-railing the topic. The real problem is momentum and useless expends, regardless of what you're using. I suppose I didn't clarify but all my counter-testing with Szanthax was done with morningstars, and I still couldn't pull off a pulp because on a head break he prioritizes head. Yes, this does give me a few extra seconds with him prone, but it's not enough to capitalize with damage on morningstars, or even switching to flails and attacking as at most you've gained 3.5 seconds, the equivalent to one attack, and definitely not enough time to get enough momentum to pull off a second assault.
If damage is actually supposed to be viable with this spec, which I'm assuming it is, Assault needs to be performable. Period.
I mean if Assault damage scaled like DSB - and it's arguably more difficult to pull off - then we'd atleast have that option, but with level 3 arti flails its 2.5k, and only gets slightly higher when performed on broken limbs, making assault torso literally useless. There are some options other than pulp that can be made available. Forged Morningstars do 1.2k on a pulp.
As well, my complaint about flails is ENTIRELY valid, as unlike dual-cutting (They don't get forced to use battleaxes, that's an option), we are FORCED into taking the flail proficiency, which means if you don't have the lessons to get the new prof (A lot of players that haven't purchased large sums of credits), you now have a proficiency that's useless for anything but hunting.
at 8 momentum you use 4 to drop both legs, focus on one leg with two hits for the mangle, bringing you back to 8 momentum, then you assault, but at that point they've almost cured through the leg mangle, if they cure head, you at most gained yourself 3.5 extra seconds.
You can also prep the head so when you drop on the legs you pop head once, then hit something else for assault momentum, but again if you pop the head and they cure, your assault will land during the curing and essentially just be the damage. It's impossible to chain assaults right now, whomever you're fighting would have to be god awful at curing, meaning not using a system/serverside, and assault is fairly easy to get around as long as you can survive the damage. People above 5k hp seem to have no issues tanking flail damage, and easily tank morningstar damage. If everything goes perfectly you'll at most have someone prone for just over 10 seconds, and use all your momentum doing so. I mean, it's entirely probable that you'll have to build to 8 momentum during your prep (Difficult with people running to decay momentum or hindering abilities such as paralysis and clumsiness), then expend 4 of that on the left arm to negate parrying, then expend with another 4 (If one hasn't decayed during that time), to drop the legs, leaving you with NO momentum to work up towards assault. You literally won't have the time to get an assault off, ever.
While I do agree the momentum is an issue currently but even with level three morningstars you have virtually no issue pulling off pulp off. If they heal their head first make them pay for it by performing an assault on their torso and focus on hitting a limb for the extra damage and go the damage out route which is completely viable using both level three flails and morningstars. When I was a runie DB I had no issues really with building up momentum or prepping limbs with classes with a lot of hindering. The damage pressure and limb pressure that the class posses greatly exceeds a lot of classes out there.
As for the issue with people running it sounds like you're not making full use of your runes with the Isaz change, or you're using it but lacking in engaging them to slow/prevent them from running away from your damage.
So fact of the matter is open up your avenues to different ways to attacks someone, keep engage up on them with an Isaz rune down to prevent running. Also you don't need to always expend on a left arm, prep a leg, expend on the break and prep whatever limb is parried saving you 4 momentum. Or use the 4 momentum to expend the left arm, for a 15s of hitting a limb( 5 hits with a level 3 flail and 7 with level 3 morninstars) which is more than plenty of time to prep a parried limb. Personally after using both morningstars and flails as a DB runie the class is fine with just a couple of fine adjustments, but it is extremely linear on how the combat for it is pulled off.
I'm fairly certain that like the other new weaponmastery specs, you're supposed to use both flails and morningstars to capitalize on breaks. There is a boost to limb and health damage when attacking a broken limb, and also attacking a prone opponent. I think the general idea, when going for damage kills anyway, is to prep/break with morningstars and then switch to flails for much more damaging attacks. I'm pretty sure Makarios never intended for someone to buy L3 flails and just wail on someone for a few seconds and then the fight is over.
I'd also -LOVE- to see someone try and outdps for example Darkender, who without Dform has like 8k hp, and is running a class that can both hinder and dps you out. Hell, they can even lock. Even a high level monk spamming kai heal will survive any and all dps you can give, even with hugalaz.
Also, assaulting torso with morningstars does 1.2k and eats up 5 of your momentum, it's literally one of the silliest suggestions I've seen for recovering from the enemy curing head first, especially since as I've already mentioned, if you were lucky enough to get enough momentum to get that second assault off you're already in a favorable position.
You clearly haven't done much testing, but as many people actually using DB can testify, even with level 3 morningstars pulp isn't that easy to get to against someone with intelligent rebounding usage and/or tumble.
@Kellonius What other weaponmastery specs currently have to swap weapons for maximum effectiveness? I've yet to see a 2-handed use anything but a bastard sword, longswords on SnB, and scimitars for dual-cutting. At this point DB is the only spec left that still MIGHT have to swap weapons, which on a class that relies entirely on breaks, makes tracking limb damage much more difficult and unreliable. I understand that at the outset the new weapon specs were intended to have to use both of their proficiencies, but so far it hasn't had to happen, and I don't see why the weaponmastery spec with literally the fewest skills has to also juggle multiple weapons and weapon damage. Not to mention that even if you switch to flails for the mangle/after the mangle, you're risking momentum loss which considering you need max momentum to even pull off the assault - literally your best friend with flails - you are already putting yourself in a less than favorable position against anyone with high health.
S&B can accomplish most of what it needs with longsword buckler, but I keep a broadsword/tower on hand for the same reason as DSL's axes, after an unsuccessful DSB or any other damage spike, a Rend/Smash with a broadsword/tower is a solid chunk of damage. I can also see the attraction of switching to a broadsword for higher limb damage on single Rends through parry, as long as one could keep an accurate tally, though I have not yet attempted to do this.
2H obviously uses the bastard sword for venom stacking and impale/disembowel, but the limb breaking potential of the hammer was nuts. I broke most of the world every 3-4 hits. Free switches ended before I got anywhere close to good with 2H, so I couldn't say for sure if using a hammer is worth it, offensively, but breaking limbs every 8 seconds is pretty great if you're trying to keep someone on the defensive.
So, yes, the other specs have a lot to gain by keeping both weapons on-hand and not limiting themselves to just one or the other.
Right now forged morningstar speed is approximately 2.4 seconds an attack, whereas forged rapiers were 2.1 seconds an attack. Forged morningstars do approximately 600 damage on an armored opponent, whereas rapiers did 900. I understand the break potential for the spec is extraordinary but rapiers were able to attack faster, for higher damage, AND deliver venoms, all while having a decent break threshold for anyone but dragons. All while not having to maintain something like momentum.
Sure there's lots of criticism to be thrown my way but the fact remains that every other spec scales hindrance and breaks together much better than just breaks, mainly because of a momentum issue. If the cap was even raised to 12, a huge part of the issue could be avoided, because performing double assaults would be plausible if someone cured head, and pulps even more plausible if someone didn't. There's not much utility to the spec, just damage and breaking shit, and at this point we're having a hard time making anything out of it.
As well, I know that scimitar damage is garbage, does not scale as well as rapier, as I'm sure I'm going to get guff about that, but leg breaks still come fast enough and venoms are always a bitch when delivered overtop of your herb balance.
2handed have recurring afflictions and sip speed reduction, without intelligent parrying they are going to shit all over you at this point. They can pull off double disembowels with relative easy, and have some of the best passive hindrance afflictions recurring all the time, not to mention can deliver them.
SnB have an off-balance attack that altough requires ferocity, have the added benefit of being well... off balance. If my expends could be performed off balance, well I'd probably have a lot less to complain about.
I do feel that you're underselling some of DWB's strengths a bit. DWB has the fastest prep time of any Knight. It is the only Knight class that hit two different limbs at once, and thus the only one that can double-break on-demand. (2H can double break with Devastate, but if you think your momentum requirement is bad...) Pulp is a powerful prep-based instant kill that forces people to cure sub-optimally to avoid it, much like Vivisect, which gives you ample opportunities to damage them out with your prone/damaged-limb bonuses. For reference, It's much harder for a DSL or S&B Knight to punish you for avoiding a Disembowel than it is for you punish them for avoiding a Pulp.
That's not to say I think DWB is fine. It doesn't have great offensive hindering, it has only damage-based approaches aside from Pulp, and it does require considerable momentum to work. These issues seemed obvious to me from the start, and that's why DWB is the one Knight spec I never touched. It's discount Monk without all the things that make Monk scary. But while I feel you are touching on some valid issues that DWB faces, I don't think you appreciate the advantages you have, and those advantages make it difficult to give DWB the things you want. Remove the momentum requirement, and DWB gets the single easiest slow-prep setup available. Add afflictions or other consistent hindering, and it ends up dealing more damage than DSL or S&B with the same hindering ability. Make it too easy to damage people out while they dodge Pulp, and suddenly DWB is an unavoidable death. (Infernal DWB kinda was for a short while)
So yes, there are some kinks to work out, but there's a fine line that needs to be walked to keep DWB from getting ridiculous. Of all the Knights, DWB should never hinder as well as the affliction-based Knights, and should always require more momentum than the Knights with longer prep times, and should never deal so much damage that you can easily spike out everyone who knows how to avoid Pulp. Those are just realities you have to accept.
Momentum Momentum Momentum. It's the dominant issue, next in line would be 3/5 expends being useless (Literally, expending torso just causes most people to resmoke immediately after the hit, not even as much time lost as the stun would give, the stun is just over 1 second and costs 4 momentum. Being used on balance and costing it, it's nothing like the shieldstrike of similar nature. The cancellation of tattoos is only useful in the event of shield spam, which honestly rarely happens, and it doesn't last very long.
But the momentum decay rate is very high and the momentum cap is extremely low. I think if those things were changed then the cost for expend is justifiable.
Bad enough that I'll never use it.
I'm actually more in favor of losing some break potential, or even pulp, in favor of actually having -some- hindrance capability in the prep stage. We are literally the only class/spec that has none, and the design is pretty obvious about having tried to include it, it's just not effective.
But if you guys want to see what it is I'm talking about, I'd be happy to show you. The only thing I could have done differently was expend on the unparried leg, still leaving me three hits to 3xbreak the right leg, and not enough time to likely even perform it, as the 2.5 seconds recovering from balance to even break the right leg is most of the cure time for the left leg. As it stands you have to use your full momentum to even prone a decent player for long, and by the time you'd be ready to assault they're standing. That's without rebounding.
Szanthax is a fully artied and dragon level character - it's expected that if you aren't artied that you aren't going to be able to kill him with straight damage.
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
Anyway, I'll make sure to post it before I leave for work for all your viewing pleasures.
Actually, I don't think I was entirely wrong. I only tested it a little bit but I think there is bonus damage for being prone AND bonus damage for broken limbs, and its applied cumulatively. Log here: http://pastebin.com/LfNvjPjy
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
Worth noting though, that the bonus damage for broken limbs is only applied when both broken and prone though.