Dual Blunt Discussion

Mizik

Choice of two unstoppable kills is definitely a pretty good spot.

Nemutaur

Mizik said:

Choice of two unstoppable kills is definitely a pretty good spot.

Each is stoppable, its just both together that makes them able to choose either or depending on the persons curing and just sealing the kill.

Only choice is to roll runie/shaman for that adjacent tumble to hinder, assuming the infernal is not stupid enough to fight next to an icewall. That or you kill them before they kill you, which I'm fine with but some classes might not be.

Aedin

Addama said:

Mizik said:

I guess I don't know what expend is. I assumed the ability to double break required consumption of limited resource. Otherwise dbreak, dbreak, vivisect?

Because you could do the same thing with only three preps (legs and head) and land a Pulp instead, which is #swagoverload.

Just tested it

You whip Matsuhama's Star toward the left arm of Mizik.

You feel the satisfying crunch of bone as your attack connects with the left arm of Mizik.

You whip Matsuhama's Star toward the left leg of Mizik.

Your attacks begin to pick up momentum.

Arador

There technically is no lvl1 head break. Lvl2 means you have to apply restoration. Lvl3 means you have to apply restoration twice. 

So with that convention in mind, pulp needs a lvl3 head break. 

Exelethril

Mizik said:

Choice of two unstoppable kills is definitely a pretty good spot.

If I'm not mistaken, it's the choice between head prio and leg prio which ultimately decides whether you get vivi'd or pulp'd. Just requires some adaptation on their part and how they finish their set up according to how you cure.

Arador

Oh, other question. If they parry right leg can you "DW left leg expend right leg" to get past it?

Mizik

Nemutaur said:

Mizik said:

Choice of two unstoppable kills is definitely a pretty good spot.

Each is stoppable, its just both together that makes them able to choose either or depending on the persons curing and just sealing the kill.

Only choice is to roll runie/shaman for that adjacent tumble to hinder, assuming the infernal is not stupid enough to fight next to an icewall. That or you kill them before they kill you, which I'm fine with but some classes might not be.

Vivisect is not stoppable. Can perma fight with a lv2 torso, but not a concussion. A dustbomb, even, is game.

Pulp takes 16 seconds to set up. If they just rush head restoration, maybe a Dragon or a Knight could tank the mangling. 

But you're right, having both is the clutch:

Arms/Legs and head prepped. If they cure head, quad break Vivisect. If they cure legs, Assault, Pulp.

Arador

Vivisect without the threat of Pulp is stoppable and quite easily so. Shield if they break head alone to get you off salve balance, or apply to leg first if they break head, leg and prone.

Pulp from a double leg break followed by head is technically stoppable but I agree that if you pause there and wait to cure head first I doubt anyone could survive on the ground for 12 seconds against the spec.

Arador

For example, you set up head, and both legs.

0s Break both legs, they fake apply or do not apply (ll2 rl2) (M6)

2.5s Break head and hit right leg, they apply to head (ll2 rl2 h2) (M8) [Note h2 means they need one restoration apply]

5s  Assault Head (M3)

6.5s Head level lowered. Apply restoration to head (ll2 rl2 h2) 

7.5s DW right leg (ll2 rl2 h2) (M5)

10s Assault head (ll2 rl2 h3) (M0)

10.5s Head level lowered, apply to legs (ll2 rl2 h2) (M0) [Here they might apply to head if that is still prio, but we are assuming they are smart and know you can not assault head again.]

12.5s DW Right leg (ll2 rl2 h2) (M2)

14.5s Right Leg level lowered. Apply to legs, touch tree (ll2 h2) [There is a 50% chance the left leg is cured instead, in which case I will keep all my right leg prep and break it to mangled soon, meaning you stay down at least another 4 seconds. But lets go with best case for the victim here. Also, you could apply to head here but that just means more time prone]

15s DW Right Leg (ll2 h2) (M4) [If the left leg got cured before, this would break the right leg up to lvl 3]

17.5s DW Right Leg (ll2 h2) (M6)

18.5s Left leg level lowered. Apply mending and stand and shield or run like hell if you are still breathing [18.5 seconds spent prone, best case scenario]

Continuation - If the left leg was cured first and you are still prone:

19.5 Apply to head (rl2 h2) [Or legs but that would not help here if you applied to legs previously]

20s Assault head (rl2 h3) (M0)

22.5 Pulp

If at 14.5 seconds the left leg healed and they applied to head instead to avoid the incoming pulp at 22.5, they would be still be prone at this point.

Mapping this all out and the different options is tricky because each apply is a crossroads where you can bone yourself one way or another. But basically surviving means being lucky on the 14.5s cure being the other leg and being able to tank damage from 2 assaults and 3 DW on broken limbs while prone (DW does more damage when the person is prone and the leg you are hitting is broken)

I would not call this "Balanced"

Atalkez

I would say being prone for 20s, you die to damage before pulp.

Arador

Oh and this is not just Infernal. EVERYONE can do this. Infernal will just kill you quicker.

The problem is not Infernal, it is Dual Blunt with morningstars. Infernal just takes the problem to a worse level.

You have at best a 50% chance of surviving that without fancy class specific tricks and hinders. And the amount of curing-fu you have to pull is unrealistic.

Krux

Honestly I tested this shit and really its totally broken. Vivisect isn't the issue. You added in an instant kill mechanic that takes three limbs instead of four and then didn't expect it to be overpowered? It's inevitably going to end up like Axekick, a skill that sits there. Pulp by itself is overpowered not just for Infernals for everyone.

Wessux

Ignore me for now.

Tharvis

Reading this I can't help but imagine how absolutely unstoppable dual blunt would be when paired up with a magi, even if all that magi did in the entire fight is a single timeflux.

Makarios

We have some small tweaks which should mitigate a lot of the issues here. Stay tuned.

Synbios

Given that nunchakus were originally threshing flails, this is how I see dual blunt:

Rangor

Can I ask why tumbling behind a wall, or doing all the other things you'd normally do to stay alive while prone won't work against dual blunt?

Jovolo

It depends on a variety of factors, most significantly room hindrance. If you can throw down nooses, gravehands, piety, peels, wunjo/nairat, then that gives you a general certainty of getting out alive. If you don't, then with mountjump they may be able to keep up their offence. The balance on it is relatively small that if the window of success is any greater than the balance on mountjump, they'll still pull off a kill. 

Tumble will most likely let you escape from pulp because I don't think the window of success is very big, but I think the damage is what's going to be more dangerous. At least, to those without thousands of credits in defensive artefacts.

Arador

Without you having any hindrance, not much you can do. Sure you could stand next to a wall but if you go down and there is no wall next to you, you are screwed.

There are some classes that could survive, thanks to class abilities like Raido, Room Hindrance or perhaps Cripple if you have kai but for most, no wall means goodbye. You could map that out with a wall and see how much it shortens the time of course.

Addama

Weaponmastery
-------------
* ASSAULT (Dual Blunt specialisation) now requires 7 MOMENTUM but still only consumes 5.

Assuming left leg parried, starting with 8 momentum:

Doublewhirl Right leg expend left leg (6 momentum) (apply resto leg)

Head head (8 momentum) (1.5s resto balance left) (L2 head break)

Assault head (possibly applied resto to head) (3 momentum) (L3 head break)

Pulp (still on head mangle)

This nerf doesn't really change the Pulp combo, it merely means you need 8 momentum before you can initiate it, which is pretty fucking trivial IMO.

E: I'm pretty sure the point of this nerf is to prevent repeated assaults, as previously it was possible to prone/assault/doublewhirl/assault.

Alrena

Would it be possible to avoid the dual blunt knight from building up enough momentum for an assault? Escaping, shielding (not sure if razing adds momentum?), hindering their offense?

Makarios

Hmm. Actually, that's not intended. I can see what you're saying, but combos when you expend momentum aren't meant to then generate momentum on the second hit of the doublewhirl. I.e. leg/leg expend, head/head should only raise you to 6. I will sort that out.

Entirely my falt, sorry about that.

Addama

Makarios said:

Hmm. Actually, that's not intended. I can see what you're saying, but combos when you expend momentum aren't meant to then generate momentum on the second hit of the doublewhirl. I.e. leg/leg expend, head/head should only raise you to 6. I will sort that out.

Entirely my falt, sorry about that.

Ahhhh, I see.  Yeah, combos that expend still generate one momentum.

Now that I look at it, assuming EXPEND takes three momentum and generates none, you start with 8 momentum:

Doublewhirl Right leg expend left leg (5 momentum) (apply resto leg)

Head head (7 momentum) (1.5s resto balance left) (L2 head break)

Assault head (possibly applied resto to head) (2 momentum) (L3 head break)

Pulp (still on head mangle)


Still doesn't change the Pulp combo.  You'd need to increase the Expend cost to 4 or reduce the Momentum cap to 7 in order to actually complicate the kill sequence.

Addama

Alrena said:

Would it be possible to avoid the dual blunt knight from building up enough momentum for an assault? Escaping, shielding (not sure if razing adds momentum?), hindering their offense?

Considering Dual Blunt has no hindering to speak of and Piety/Gravehands/Engagisaz make leaving the room more trouble than it's worth (usually), your options are shielding, which costs them no momentum, and hindering them, which might cost them momentum (no guarantee).

If you're not hindering my offense it takes 10 seconds to generate full momentum.  A more realistic approach is to run if they ever expend on left arm (highlight that line big time) and to switch parry from x leg to y leg if your legs are fully prepped; this way they'll land their expend hit on the parried leg (and not prone you) and break the other leg, forcing them to re-prep that leg if they realize what's happened.  A lot of people just won't see it through the spam and go straight to the doublewhirl head head, assault before realizing you're not prone.  This is esp. the case if they're dumb and put their entire kill sequence in a single alias.

Borran

Does expending on a parried limb use momentum? 

Addama

Borran said:

Does expending on a parried limb use momentum? 

I'm not sure, but that's not the point - you've wasted your balance to break one leg without proning them, they are restoring that leg, best case scenario is you expend on the already broken leg/hit the parried leg to prone them, then break head, in which case they can restore either head or the second leg and either be standing or have a lesser break on the head by the time you regain balance on the Assault, either of which prevents the Pulp.

Makarios

Ah, no. Expend does take 4. The point is doublewhirl is generating two, since the momentum generation comes after the expenditure.

Aedin

Dual blunt we knew you well...

Addama

Makarios said:

Ah, no. Expend does take 4. The point is doublewhirl is generating two, since the momentum generation comes after the expenditure.

Okay, so assuming an Expend combo generates zero momentum, starting at 8 momentum, you'll have to also prep an arm to throw them off resto balance.


Doublewhirl left arm right arm (8 momentum) (resto arm)

Doublewhirl left leg expend right leg (4 momentum) (1.5s resto balance)

(wait for leg apply) Doublewhirl head head (6 momentum) (resto leg)

Doublewhirl whatever (8 momentum) (1.5s resto balance)

Assault head (3 momentum) (resto head)

Pulp (1.5s resto balance)


To make this work, you'd need to Doublewhirl head head immediately following the leg apply; if you accidentally doublewhirl head head before the arm restore finishes, a victim with head prio will cure head and prevent the Assault.

So it's still fairly unstoppable once the victim is proned (exception: BM) but requires a quad prep, which brings it more in line with other kill sequences, so that's good.

E: Shield up on the arm break for a tsunami of tears

Arador

Yeah if only you had an ability that could break both arms in one attack so they couldn't shield and something to hinder then from just running away.....