The Big Change - Tradeskills

Blujixapug

Sarapis said:

Sena said:

Makarios said:

You can't give designs to people without the appropriate skill, due to that loophole. (Or should not be able to.)

That seems like a pretty serious nerf (to the functionality of designs in general, not the tradeskills specifically), if there's not more to it than that. It would mean having your own custom outfit designs requires tailoring (or a friend with tailoring keeping them for you, and hope they don't ever go dormant). Is that the case?

That is the case, yep. Tailoring is fully in the hands of tailors going forward.

I really dislike this.

I'd like to be able to write a design (eg. a ring for a family clan, or a cloak for a House sect, or a personal wedding dress), give it to a Tailor or Jeweller, have them submit the design and craft the item for me, pay them, have them transfer the design back to me so I can retain ownership, pay upkeep for the design myself, and temporarily give crafting permissions for the item to a crafter - any crafter - any time I want another one created. Retaining ownership and controlling who can use a design, without having to buy a license and learn the design skill myself, would be important to me in this situation.

The design system is able to accomodate this type of design ownership by non-crafters, and granting of temporary permissions to crafters. Formerly that was exactly how it worked, and this process seemed to fit easily into the trade economy, with opportunities for the crafter to charge fees. The current alternative - a crafter promising to use a commissioned design exclusively for a certain customer, paying upkeep for the design themselves and factoring that into their fees, and the risk of either of them going dormant and interrupting the design partnership - seems awkward.

Sena

Sarapis said:

That is the case, yep. Tailoring is fully in the hands of tailors going forward.

This seems bad for the crafters, as well as extremely horrible for their customers.

In the past, paying a crafter tens of thousands of gold (or even more in some cases) for personal designs was reasonable, since I could keep the design myself and later take it to anyone with the right skill to craft it for me when I need a new one. I could easily pay 40k-50k gold for a single jewellery design like that, or potentially 100k+ for a full outfit (something more than just a shirt and pants) from a tailor.

Now, I would have to either go back to that same crafter constantly and hope they never go dormant or become an enemy or otherwise become unable to craft for me, or have the design made public so everyone can make it. If I want the design to actually be private/personal, making it public isn't an option, and I additionally have to trust the crafter not to make it for anyone else. I wouldn't want everyone running around with my wedding ring/dress or something I made as a personal gift for someone else, for example.

There's no way I'd ever pay tens or hundreds of thousands on a custom outfit if I can't have it crafted without hunting down a specific person for it, and it could easily be lost forever at any moment. I'd stick to finding pre-made clothing at that point. I might have a simple, cheap outfit designed for the public just for the cases where I can't find anything good in shops or from a tailor's existing designs, but I would also never pay a lot for that, since I'd be paying on behalf of the entire world instead of buying something for myself. I'm sure a lot of other potential customers feel the same way.

For example, I have a custom armband that I had designed as a gift; the design fee was around 30k, the crafting fee 13810, and I happened to get it for free because of some miscommunication with the jeweller but I would have happily paid them 30k-50k on top of the costs. I've been working on a custom outfit as well, and planned on paying 50k-100k to the tailor in addition to whatever the design/crafting costs would be. I wouldn't do any of that if I couldn't keep the designs.

Kaihuti

I don't know, I kind of like the idea that clothing and jewelry will be more available to everyone, sort of like copyright expiry in the real world (well, ideally anyway).

Sena

Kaihuti said:

I don't know, I kind of like the idea that clothing and jewelry will be more available to everyone, sort of like copyright expiry in the real world (well, ideally anyway).

It seems far more likely that the result will be less custom work, rather than more public designs.

Nim

I think the problem here is just that people are cleverly using the design system to do customizations, offsetting a lot of the cost associated with customizations (aggregated 3 credits for an infinitely replenishable supply of an item, as opposed to 100~150 credits for just one instance of it, is a ridiculously good deal!).

And now you sort of can't unless you're a tailor, but at the same time, if you have a lot of customizations, even getting a tailor license, getting a possible crafting skill slot, and increasing further crafting skill lesson costs might end up cheaper than getting the items individually customized.

If you want, say, a six piece outfit to be completely custom to you, even if you're okay with the possibility of it getting stolen, that's six hundred credits. Nine hundred, if you want to secure your investment completely.

I forget the exact credit costs someone posted in the other thread, but you'd certainly need quite a few crafting skills before grabbing tailoring would cost more than that.

Sarapis

I hear your points and am considering.

Riashain

@Sarapis‌ is boss. Always willing to listen. Whatever the decision, appreciate the consideration, S.

Tesha

Just to add my voice, I'd really prefer being able to have control over my designs if I don't have tailor/jeweller/cook instead of being able to make designs I already owned, personally. It was a cool idea, but I didn't realize it came at the cost of not being able to have designs transferred if you don't have the license. This is pretty important for really special things like wedding rings if your character crafts a special one and you really don't want multiples.

Agreed that it's awesome you're thinking about it, thanks for taking player concerns into such consideration.

Austere

An added problem is those of us with crafters portfolios(I think that is what it is called) that can't do anything with the designs now, since we only had stuff made and designs transfered to us. 

Bluef

After some thought..

Passcodes are a possible solution to all of this. Instead of paying to transfer the design, you pay for the tailor to share it and set up a passcode so that any crafter at any time can make it. 

That still doesn't offer a work around for preservation of such designs though. I already have 2 crafter's folders and I don't want another one just to hold new customer designs (because it is very unlikely that I will fill up all the slots with customer designs, thus making it a personal, not a profitable investment).

I'd rather that burden be on the customer, who has to pay for the privilege by buying both my design time and the design itself from me. But..that's personal preference, and at least passcodes seem a possible easy work around for the other problems.

Jukilian

Message #757        Sent by Meletus

1/01/16:45 Greetings! In regard to issue 71307, it should indeed be possible to imbue five scrolls 

at once with the artefact Medallion!

Syntax please?

I have tried:

• BEGIN CREATION OF 5 FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 SCROLL WITH FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 SCROLL FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 FIRELASH

No luck. What goes?

Tesha

Yeah, if they don't have space in their crafter's folder, or don't have one/don't want to sell the space in theirs, then you can only hope the tailor/jeweller doesn't go dormant and end up letting the design go public. It's just uncomfortable for everyone.

Herose

Jukilian said:

Message #757        Sent by Meletus

1/01/16:45 Greetings! In regard to issue 71307, it should indeed be possible to imbue five scrolls 

at once with the artefact Medallion!

Syntax please?

I have tried:

• BEGIN CREATION OF 5 FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 SCROLL WITH FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 SCROLL FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 FIRELASH

No luck. What goes?

The help file doesn't seem to indicate that you can do more than one.

Kyttin

So my question is this, I bought my Loki's tear on the 13th of June, and I got informed that I wouldn't be allowed a full refund because you're only accepting from the 31st of June till current. I thought the previously it stated that almost all the artefacts for tradeskills would be allowed a full refund. I mean, now I HAVE to choose Toxicology and since I already choose another Tradeskill, I have to now unlearn it, learn Harvesting and whatever else has to go with Toxicology, which effectively is going to cost me a lot more just to do ONE thing that I was previously doing. How is this helpful?

Austere

Kyttin said:

So my question is this, I bought my Loki's tear on the 13th of June, and I got informed that I wouldn't be allowed a full refund because you're only accepting from the 31st of June till current. I thought the previously it stated that almost all the artefacts for tradeskills would be allowed a full refund. I mean, now I HAVE to choose Toxicology and since I already choose another Tradeskill, I have to now unlearn it, learn Harvesting and whatever else has to go with Toxicology, which effectively is going to cost me a lot more just to do ONE thing that I was previously doing. How is this helpful?

18 days?  Email @Tecton‌

Edit: not saying it will help,  but I don't see them being that picky. If it doesn't work,  just learn them as you go.  Never unlearn something. 

Kyttin

Austere said:

Kyttin said:

So my question is this, I bought my Loki's tear on the 13th of June, and I got informed that I wouldn't be allowed a full refund because you're only accepting from the 31st of June till current. I thought the previously it stated that almost all the artefacts for tradeskills would be allowed a full refund. I mean, now I HAVE to choose Toxicology and since I already choose another Tradeskill, I have to now unlearn it, learn Harvesting and whatever else has to go with Toxicology, which effectively is going to cost me a lot more just to do ONE thing that I was previously doing. How is this helpful?

18 days?  Email @Tecton‌

This is in response to the email I already received. So yeah, 18 days. Although it wasn't Tecton who emailed me back.

Kresslack

Kyttin said:

So my question is this, I bought my Loki's tear on the 13th of June, and I got informed that I wouldn't be allowed a full refund because you're only accepting from the 31st of June till current. I thought the previously it stated that almost all the artefacts for tradeskills would be allowed a full refund. I mean, now I HAVE to choose Toxicology and since I already choose another Tradeskill, I have to now unlearn it, learn Harvesting and whatever else has to go with Toxicology, which effectively is going to cost me a lot more just to do ONE thing that I was previously doing. How is this helpful?

It was originally stated that they would only be doing refunds for such items if they have been purchased within the past 6 months to date.

Ahmet

Sarapis said:

Shirszae said:

Is there any easy way to see how you have progressed in a particular smithing rank?

Adding this in.

WAITING ANXIOUSLY FOR SOMEONE TO TELL ME THE COMMAND FOR THIS.

Maega

Xith said:

Maega said:

I am confused by Tecton's offer of a direct skill-level transfer.

Can I retain my tradeskill instead of the replacement class skill?
We'll handle this manually in cases where a particular player would rather the miniskills in place of the replacement skill. Once your class tradeskill split has been completed, just email support@achaea.com, and we'll make the appropriate adjustments. This will be a direct skill level switch, not a 100% refund on lessons.

Does this mean that I go from 70% (1118 lessons spent) in this new skill that I got from spending lessons in the skill I intended to spend lessons in to 70% in one tradekill (693 lesson total) meaning that I'd be losing MORE than HALF of my lessons already spent?

Does it mean I go to 70% in two tradeskills?

And, I'm curious, do they have to be the two tradeskills that add up to what I originally invested lessons into? Or do I get to at least spend my lessons without an additional 50 cr to enjoy we were granted access to?

You get whichever skill level you were at, I think. And probably some bonus lessons.

Message #723        Sent by Lycon

1/02/1:20 Greetings! In regard to Issue # 71326, you will get 70% into both tradeskills, and if you 

had enchanting yes the two skills would have to be Conjuring and Augmentation. Should you have any 

further questions, please do not hesitate to ISSUE ME!

Message #724        Sent by Meletus

1/02/1:23 Greetings! In regard to issue 71326, you'd be getting 70% of the way into both tradeskills 

(Conjuring and Augmentation)! As for the latter, it's because the vast majority of people would 

prefer Artificing and it's simpler to handle others, like yourself, on a case-by-case basis than 

implement an entire system dedicated to picking and choosing where the tradeskill lesson

In case anyone else was wondering. Love the fast response and awesome answers! Just what I needed to know, and what I wanted to hear.

Jukilian

Herose said:

Jukilian said:

Message #757        Sent by Meletus

1/01/16:45 Greetings! In regard to issue 71307, it should indeed be possible to imbue five scrolls 

at once with the artefact Medallion!

Syntax please?

I have tried:

• BEGIN CREATION OF 5 FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 SCROLL WITH FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 SCROLL FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 FIRELASH

No luck. What goes?

The help file doesn't seem to indicate that you can do more than one.

Considering how big a change this is, that doesn't mean much.

Also, Meletus' ISSUE ME response is there for a reason.

Sarapis

Kresslack said:

Kyttin said:

So my question is this, I bought my Loki's tear on the 13th of June, and I got informed that I wouldn't be allowed a full refund because you're only accepting from the 31st of June till current. I thought the previously it stated that almost all the artefacts for tradeskills would be allowed a full refund. I mean, now I HAVE to choose Toxicology and since I already choose another Tradeskill, I have to now unlearn it, learn Harvesting and whatever else has to go with Toxicology, which effectively is going to cost me a lot more just to do ONE thing that I was previously doing. How is this helpful?

It was originally stated that they would only be doing refunds for such items if they have been purchased within the past 6 months to date.

Actually I believe we originally stated it'd be within the past 4 months, but we decided to extend it at the last minute to 6 months.

Trevize

Sarapis said:

I hear your points and am considering.

Random thought but what if you change shears/loupe/etc from checking if owner is person, to checking if owner is person AND design# is <= the last design created on 12/31 (this works on the assumption that design numbers always increment, so if 12345 was made on 12/31, any designs 12346 and higher were made after). Then re-enable trading on NDS as before.

Sarapis

Yes, that's easily doable, but it's not about whether we can actually make it happen or not - that was never a question.

Kez

Trevize said:
this works on the assumption that design numbers always increment, so if 12345 was made on 12/31, any designs 12346 and higher were made after

They don't.

Trevize

Kez said:

Trevize said:
this works on the assumption that design numbers always increment, so if 12345 was made on 12/31, any designs 12346 and higher were made after

They don't.

Thank you for clarifying, but seems it's irrelevant per Sarapis' reply above.

Good to know regardless.

Kez

Sooo...

While I was learning, just now, my third trade skill transformed. I had 1040 lessons into it (5 or 8 to go) when suddenly my invested lessons on SHOW dropped down to 689. I was learning 20 at a time when I saw this: 

(At the start) 

You have about 1041 lessons remaining before you reach Transcendence in the miniskill Cooking.

(At the end)

You have about 24 lessons remaining before you reach Transcendence in the miniskill Cooking.

Arionna continues your training in Cooking.

Dousing the small fire, Arionna rises and urges you to eat and feed others only the best foods.

The next ability you will learn is: PORTIONS.

You have about 7 lessons remaining before you reach Transcendence in the miniskill Cooking.

You have the equivalent of about 689 lessons in the miniskill Cooking.

Nexes

Has anyone got toxicology to work?

I can't put more than 1 item in at a time:

>compound 1 magnesium in alembic
Quantities must be between 1 and 50.

Once I do get them in, I can't hydrate it:

>hydrate alembic for curare
There is no alembic here for you to hydrate the contents of.

Edit: nevermind, figured out the hydrating step. Got to put it on the ground...

Gawi

Gawi said:

Wondering how the loki's tear will be helping toxicology? If it already will, or is that a later update?

@Sarapis @Tecton

Tecton

Gawi said:

Gawi said:

Wondering how the loki's tear will be helping toxicology? If it already will, or is that a later update?

@Sarapis @Tecton

Covered that earlier in the thread, but you get 50% more sips per batch with the artefact!

Vayne

Tecton said:

Gawi said:

Gawi said:

Wondering how the loki's tear will be helping toxicology? If it already will, or is that a later update?

@Sarapis @Tecton

Covered that earlier in the thread, but you get 50% more sips per batch with the artefact!

That seems like... a lot, especially with no analogous item for remedies. Although, I have noticed that toxins in general take a wider variety and larger amount of materials to create.