The Big Change - Tradeskills

Riashain

Antonius said:

Tecton said:

Gawi said:

Gawi said:

Wondering how the loki's tear will be helping toxicology? If it already will, or is that a later update?

@Sarapis @Tecton

Covered that earlier in the thread, but you get 50% more sips per batch with the artefact!

Not being that familiar with the process and mechanics, I'm confused by the numbers and how exactly this works.

If a batch is worth 120 sips from a Trans practitioner poured into an artefact vial, and the Loki's Tear amulet increases the number of sips per batch by 50%, then I still don't quite get a full vial's worth (I'd be 60 sips short) - to me that sounds like I'd still need to use two batches to fill the vial, regardless of the amulet.

Is it worthless if I'm just picking up Toxicology to fill my own venoms, and I own artefact vials?

Based on my calcs yesterday (no response yet), you would save 4 batches over 3 vials for a regular viala dn 2 batches over 3 vials for artefact vials.

Non tear
200 sips per vial = 600 for 3
4 batches per vial = 12 batches for 3

Tear
200 sips per vial
75 sips per batch now = 8 batches for 600 sips (3 vials)


Unless I'm doing something wrong. Or misunderstanding.


Math works out to 6 batches no tear and 4 tear for artefact vials over 3 vials.

Antonius

@Riashain‌ Do you have Toxicology already? I haven't picked any tradeskills yet, and I've never had Concoctions or Transmutation which have similar mechanics, so maybe I'm just not understanding exactly how/when each of the factors are being applied.

Right now, I'm assuming a batch is always exactly that (regardless of artefacts and skillrank): one batch. The pot/alembic shows batches of toxin/elixir/salve, and the number of uses/sips is calculated when you pour it into a vial. Since it doesn't seem like you'd be able to have fractions of a batch in the pot/alembic, it seems like to me it would go like this:

Create 2 batches of a toxin.
Pour into artefact vial with Loki's tear - pot/alembic has one batch left, vial has 180 sips in it.
Pour into artefact vial with Loki's tear - pot/alembic has zero batches left, vial has 240 sips in it.

OR

Create 2 batches of a toxin.
Pour into artefact vial without Loki's tear - pot/alembic has one batch left, vial has 120 sips in it.
Pour into artefact vial without Loki's year - pot/alembic has zero batches left, vial has 240 sips in it.

I'm still using up two batches of the toxin with or without the Loki's tear, but with the Loki's tear I'm only getting one third the number of sips from the second batch because that's all the vial can take.

It's possible - perhaps even likely - that the way I think this is all working isn't how it actually works. However, if it is working the way I think, it seems like for me - with only artefact vials - the Loki's tear amulet is a total waste if I'm not planning to create toxins for others or to stock a shop (I'm not).

Riashain

The easiest way to think about this (assuming I'm right - tested briefly with Daklore but we got wild results - I didn't have tox at the time) is in sips.

1 batch non tear = 50 sips at trans.
1 batch tear at trans SHOULD BE = 75 sips

That is based on the 50% increase per batch mentioned by Tecton/Sarapis.

So pots/alembics don't need to hold half batches, since they are holding numerical sips of whole numbers.

But essentially what this means is that unless you are filling in sips of 600 (or multiples thereof) the tear is either essentially useless since you don't need the extra sips, or extremely awkward as you have to hang onto those extras until you can use them.

@Antonius

edit: Sorry, I keep using non-artefact vials because that's where the bigger batch savings is.

Using yours, you go from 120 sips in a batch to 180. Either way, the savings still occur over the 3 vial fill if you want to use all sips (720 sips over 3 artefact vials - 4 batches of 180 vs 6 of 120.

Lisbethae

And I'm saying there are pluses and minuses for each tradeskill pair.

There is never a time that you can't make what you need - as long as you have primes in your rift.

I cannot make ginseng. Ever.

Antonius

So the pot/alembic holds/shows when you probe it a certain number of sips in multiples of 50/75 (and gets multiplied by 2.4 when pouring into an artefact vial) rather than holding/showing a certain number of batches. There's still the issue of ending up with left over sips, as you say, but I can at least see the benefit from the amulet now.

Riashain

Right, as far as I can tell that's how it works. I don't know if probing the pot/alembic shows the number of sips (haven't had a chance to try it personally). I'm fairly certain that's how it should come out, though. Basically, only refill in multiples of 3 vials lol.

Vayne

Rispok said:

Shara said:

3. You can keep large quantities in your rift of what you make things from, which you can synthsise when reading the Ethos, writing poetry or doing House rank work. There's no reading or doing anything else when harvesting.

     Are you saying that herbs can't be rifted like minerals, aMetals, and Primes? I'm not even sure why a rift issue is mentioned. I also can't "read" while extracting.  I think you are confusing the enormous about of time we have to spend in a lab doing two intermediary cycles of processing primes into the usable equivalent to harvested herbs.

I think this comment refers to the fact that you can fap while in the lab. You just set up a trigger to convert them. Not trying to say that the two skills are equal, I don't know, but when you are in the lab you just pull up netflix and catch up on (it pains me to write a sentence this correctly) to what Sam and Dean Winchester are up.

It's still a bit ridiculous that transmutations material costs were increased to be comparable to herbs when metal/mineral creation takes a huge time toll in your bottom line. Time is money and now you are reducing it even more by upping the cost to only superficially make it look fair.

EDIT: You know what, I suppose I am just thinking under the old paradigm. This makes Remedies comparable in their alternate methods, but still leaves synthesis/harvesting unbalanced since synthesis demands much more of a time investment. This could be left the way it is and could just be a product of the the old paradigm and an artifact of the RP flavour. Nonetheless, the balance problem is between synthesis/harvesting and not rememdies really.

Riashain

Disagree there's an imbalance between synth/harvesting.

I spent a lot of time considering which route to go, and ultimately settled on synth due to Cyrene choosing alchemy rather than on the actual mechanics. But either way I actually synthesis is the easier of the two. There might, and I stress might, as I haven't done it yet, be a small time difference overall in getting what you want, but I doubt it.

All you need to do is extract and then sit in the lab and make what you want. I'd much rather do that than have to traipse across Sarapis' great green Sapience to the single 6 room spot that is likely to have more than sparse <x herb>. With synth, you can just continually grab 2 (or more with gloves) primes of each type from all sparse locations. Everywhere, really. Frankly, that's much easier in my opinion.

But to each their own!

Azelay

Give actual Alchemists a bonus to extraction and metallurgy, and/or put those two skills back into the Alchemy skill. That means that production times for alchemical remedies would overall go down, as alchemists could somewhat hasten the gathering times without directly effecting the trade skills.  It'll also preserve some of the 'Alchemists are good at alchemy" RP.

Kyttin

I still don't see a point in a Loki's tears. I've agreed with almost every statement above. You're going to either have WAY too many sips for a vial, or you're going to have not enough. There is no middle grounds, and I really think the Loki's tear itself needs to be relooked before I even consider going Toxicology.

Antonius

Just make it double the number of sips, rather than increasing by 50%, and that solves all of the issues - at Trans, anyway, but who is going to not be Trans and buy the artefact? You halve the number of batches required per vial, but it still works out to X number of batches completely filling one without left over sips.

Vesios

If you're purposely going on harvesting runs for Concotions, you're truthfully going to start ripping your hair out in frustration. 

My personal rule of thumb is to always pair it with another activity, usually hunting. If I'm hunting in a forest, for example, once I clear out the mobs I'll usually spend a minute backtracking and doing some minor harvesting, and then move on. All locations have at least one useful plant you can harvest so you're always getting at least an herb or two out of it. If it's a less common location, chances are I'll walk away with more herbs than I started out with, even if I go through them like an alcoholic goes through his beer (looking at you, irid moss). 

Also, I completely avoid commonly trekked locations - the Aureliana, Ithmias and Southern Vashnars, for example. There's no point at all. 

Combining the activities therefore nails two birds with one stone and helps deal with the sheer monotony. Do I need herbs? Time for a hunting trip. Time for a hunting trip? I'll get some herbs while I'm there. 

ETA: Also, the trait that helps with harvesting. It works. 

Riashain

Kyttin said:

I still don't see a point in a Loki's tears. I've agreed with almost every statement above. You're going to either have WAY too many sips for a vial, or you're going to have not enough. There is no middle grounds, and I really think the Loki's tear itself needs to be relooked before I even consider going Toxicology.

The middle ground is 3 vials, which is the exact full-use point. 3,6,9.

We may not like it, and I do think it should be changed because when do I ever really want 3 of something, instead of 2 or 4, but there you go.

Vayne

Riashain said:

Disagree there's an imbalance between synth/harvesting.

I spent a lot of time considering which route to go, and ultimately settled on synth due to Cyrene choosing alchemy rather than on the actual mechanics. But either way I actually synthesis is the easier of the two. There might, and I stress might, as I haven't done it yet, be a small time difference overall in getting what you want, but I doubt it.

All you need to do is extract and then sit in the lab and make what you want. I'd much rather do that than have to traipse across Sarapis' great green Sapience to the single 6 room spot that is likely to have more than sparse <x herb>. With synth, you can just continually grab 2 (or more with gloves) primes of each type from all sparse locations. Everywhere, really. Frankly, that's much easier in my opinion.

But to each their own!

I rescind my previous statements, the change is actually cheaper in over all material costs, at least at transcendent, but just requires full synthesising and transmuting to minerals, primes are no longer useful for anything besides raw material curative-wise.

Nexes

Loki's tear is bugged right now. The batches are always the same sip count, so that is a relief. What it seems to do is add 50% to the batch count rounded UP to an integer.

With mats for 1 batch, you get 2 decants. With mats for 2 you get 3. I think the intent is for 50% more, but the decants refill the same amount and you can't have a half decant it looks like.

Kresslack

Shirszae said:

So, I noticed lashes were added to weaponsmithing. Will there a proficiency for them, like with whips? Or are they meant solely for serpents to use with GARROTE?

Edit: Someone told me they fall under the same proficiency as whips. Does that mean the command to use them is also WHIP?

Use is the same as with whip, but lashes are faster and do less damage than a whip.

Rispok said:

The servers are lagging horribly due to smelt being removed. Please add smelt.

A thousand times yes. I've asked a couple of times but the answer was a definite no it seems, which is a shame because people are sitting on stockpiles no generic forgeable items which will likely sell as an afterthought with the availability of more distinct wares. Not only that, but what if I forge something and either the descriptors come out in the incorrect order or I don't like the way it looks?

Smelting would allow a temporary cleansing of the market so to speak in regards to what's already available for forged items, as well as allowing smiths more control over their final product (i.e. being able to forge goods to their level satisfaction).

Rispok said:

I suggest that the forging costs for fullplate be reduced some (and the size. 15 is redonk) and or the durability be increased.

I think the cost of fullplate is fine. Bear in mind, it's not a chestplate, it's theoretically a full, head-to-toe suit of armour. The cost makes sense.

Herenicus

Alternatively, fix it so you can only bash up your smithing by a certain fraction each day so people don't/can't powerbash into master smiths overnight.

Nexes

Vayne said:

Riashain said:

Disagree there's an imbalance between synth/harvesting.

I spent a lot of time considering which route to go, and ultimately settled on synth due to Cyrene choosing alchemy rather than on the actual mechanics. But either way I actually synthesis is the easier of the two. There might, and I stress might, as I haven't done it yet, be a small time difference overall in getting what you want, but I doubt it.

All you need to do is extract and then sit in the lab and make what you want. I'd much rather do that than have to traipse across Sarapis' great green Sapience to the single 6 room spot that is likely to have more than sparse <x herb>. With synth, you can just continually grab 2 (or more with gloves) primes of each type from all sparse locations. Everywhere, really. Frankly, that's much easier in my opinion.

But to each their own!

I rescind my previous statements, the change is actually cheaper in over all material costs, at least at transcendent, but just requires full synthesising and transmuting to minerals, primes are no longer useful for anything besides raw material curative-wise.

Yeah, if I didn't screw up the math that batch of health now reduces to this:

Materials to produce 1 batches of health:
    ferrum: 1
    realgar: 1
    bisemutum: 1
    plumbum: 1
Cost to produce 1 batches of health:
    Synthesis: 1.6
    asulphur: 1.3
    asalt: 0.5

So in the long run, a lone batch of health will take about 1 extraction (since you get 2 of the primes) and 1.6 synthesis.

Cynlael

Vayne said:

Riashain said:

Disagree there's an imbalance between synth/harvesting.

I spent a lot of time considering which route to go, and ultimately settled on synth due to Cyrene choosing alchemy rather than on the actual mechanics. But either way I actually synthesis is the easier of the two. There might, and I stress might, as I haven't done it yet, be a small time difference overall in getting what you want, but I doubt it.

All you need to do is extract and then sit in the lab and make what you want. I'd much rather do that than have to traipse across Sarapis' great green Sapience to the single 6 room spot that is likely to have more than sparse <x herb>. With synth, you can just continually grab 2 (or more with gloves) primes of each type from all sparse locations. Everywhere, really. Frankly, that's much easier in my opinion.

But to each their own!

I rescind my previous statements, the change is actually cheaper in over all material costs, at least at transcendent, but just requires full synthesising and transmuting to minerals, primes are no longer useful for anything besides raw material curative-wise.

Homunculus wants a word with you.

Kresslack

Herenicus said:

Alternatively, fix it so you can only bash up your smithing by a certain fraction each day so people don't/can't powerbash into master smiths overnight.

If you look at the projected costs of forging to Master Smith, you'll quickly see that it's unlikely anyone will be reach it in a short period of time.

Vayne

Nexes said:

Vayne said:

Riashain said:

Disagree there's an imbalance between synth/harvesting.

I spent a lot of time considering which route to go, and ultimately settled on synth due to Cyrene choosing alchemy rather than on the actual mechanics. But either way I actually synthesis is the easier of the two. There might, and I stress might, as I haven't done it yet, be a small time difference overall in getting what you want, but I doubt it.

All you need to do is extract and then sit in the lab and make what you want. I'd much rather do that than have to traipse across Sarapis' great green Sapience to the single 6 room spot that is likely to have more than sparse <x herb>. With synth, you can just continually grab 2 (or more with gloves) primes of each type from all sparse locations. Everywhere, really. Frankly, that's much easier in my opinion.

But to each their own!

I rescind my previous statements, the change is actually cheaper in over all material costs, at least at transcendent, but just requires full synthesising and transmuting to minerals, primes are no longer useful for anything besides raw material curative-wise.

Yeah, if I didn't screw up the math that batch of health now reduces to this:

Materials to produce 1 batches of health:
    ferrum: 1
    realgar: 1
    bisemutum: 1
    plumbum: 1
Cost to produce 1 batches of health:
    Synthesis: 1.6
    asulphur: 1.3
    asalt: 0.5

So in the long run, a lone batch of health will take about 1 extraction (since you get 2 of the primes) and 1.6 synthesis.

Ya, I did the math for doing a full set of remedies and it's 36 primes for the old method and only 19.6 for the new one. That's a solid 45.6% reduction. The catch is you have to turn everything into minerals now. Overall, I like the increased need for minerals in formulations, remedies, toxicology, and as cures in of themselves.

Kyttin

Any possibility of making more staghorn available or making it like a regular commodity and only commodity stores that have hunters in the vicinity will be able to sell them?

Bluef

Kyttin said:

Any possibility of making more staghorn available or making it like a regular commodity and only commodity stores that have hunters in the vicinity will be able to sell them?

I idea-ed this a while back because I thought maybe city shops might also want to have them bought for jester wares and the like and because the trader's satchels, which used to only produce useful commodities, now produce a plethora of diamond dust and stag horn. Anyway, idea declined.  

Kuy

Message #927        Sent by Achaea

1/02/21:29 Your bug report (detail: Gem of Cloaking currently does not hide its owner on TRADEWHO.) - has been removed because it is not a bug (usually meaning that this is the way things are intended to be). Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience or misunderstanding that may be involved. The following notes were included: It does for most people, but it will show cloaked people in the same house or city.


Yay for foresight!

Jukilian

Jukilian said:

Message #757        Sent by Meletus

1/01/16:45 Greetings! In regard to issue 71307, it should indeed be possible to imbue five scrolls 

at once with the artefact Medallion!

Syntax please?

I have tried:

• BEGIN CREATION OF 5 FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 SCROLL WITH FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 SCROLL FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 FIRELASH

No luck. What goes?

Gonna keep quoting this til it gets answered. Scrolls going to waste here.

Malaphus

Jukilian said:

Jukilian said:

Message #757        Sent by Meletus

1/01/16:45 Greetings! In regard to issue 71307, it should indeed be possible to imbue five scrolls 

at once with the artefact Medallion!

Syntax please?

I have tried:

• BEGIN CREATION OF 5 FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 SCROLL WITH FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 SCROLL FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 FIRELASH

No luck. What goes?

Gonna keep quoting this til it gets answered. Scrolls going to waste here.

I'm having the exact same problem.  Please answer and/or fix.

Kyttin

Malaphus said:

Jukilian said:

Jukilian said:

Message #757        Sent by Meletus

1/01/16:45 Greetings! In regard to issue 71307, it should indeed be possible to imbue five scrolls 

at once with the artefact Medallion!

Syntax please?

I have tried:

• BEGIN CREATION OF 5 FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 SCROLL WITH FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 SCROLL FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 FIRELASH

No luck. What goes?

Gonna keep quoting this til it gets answered. Scrolls going to waste here.

I'm having the exact same problem.  Please answer and/or fix.

Jukilian said:

Jukilian said:

Message #757        Sent by Meletus

1/01/16:45 Greetings! In regard to issue 71307, it should indeed be possible to imbue five scrolls 

at once with the artefact Medallion!

Syntax please?

I have tried:

• BEGIN CREATION OF 5 FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 SCROLL WITH FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 SCROLL FIRELASH
• BEGIN ENCHANTMENT OF 5 FIRELASH

No luck. What goes?

Gonna keep quoting this til it gets answered. Scrolls going to waste here.

Have you guys BUG'ed it yet? My bugs are instantly getting fixed.

Malaphus

Kyttin said:

Have you guys BUG'ed it yet? My bugs are instantly getting fixed.

Yes.

Jukilian

I did an ISSUE ME about it, no response just yet.

Also, my bugs are definitely not instantly getting fixed.  

Rispok

Jukilian said:

I did an ISSUE ME about it, no response just yet.

Also, my bugs are definitely not instantly getting fixed.  

I have bugs that are like 2 or 3 years old. Some get fixed, others get put into the round filing bin.

This seems like one worth fixing though.